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#11
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Decline in bicycling?
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:06:07 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 1/27/2020 2:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, 27 January 2020 12:00:41 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic, I think I can answer that question.) The article ties the drop in commuter ridership to the fear of traffic and the highest bicycle death rate in the nation. You are now treading in that area between perceived danger and actual danger. It may actually suck to ride on surface streets to commute to work in Tampa as opposed to riding on one of the MUPs or linear park trails, which typically don't get you where you need to go as a commuter. The more interesting question is why a drop if the roads were equally dangerous in 2017. We had a drop in PDX, but nothing has changed -- except maybe car traffic has gotten worse. What we need is a survey to find out why people who rode in 2017 aren't riding in 2019. It could be reasons totally unrelated to road conditions, e.g. working from home. -- Jay Beattie. Perhaps in Florida it's because of drivers who plow into a group of 15+ bicyclist of which 2 die of injuries; and the driver doesn't even get charged with reckless driving although she was 10+ MPH over the speed limit and was not looking at the road in front of her at the time she hit them? It's talked about in t his thread. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/5abS9erOsto I think a big part of many giving up bicycling on roads is the perceived dangers posed by distracted drivers and the extremely lenient sentences those drivers get if they hit or hit and kill a bicyclist. Distracted driving seems to be increasing yearly and the penalties for it if someone is hit are ridiculously light. I suspect a reason for drops in cycling is perceived dangers, but I don't think it's specifically connected with light sentences for offending motorists. I say that because in the U.S. (and I suppose in Canada) there never was a time when motorists were adequately punished for their offenses. I think a big change has been the never-ending push for "Safe!" separate facilities, with the unavoidable implication that ordinary streets cannot possibly be "safe." My understanding is that the big bike companies - especially Trek, IIRC - are strongly behind this facility push. If so, it's a classic case of shooting oneself in the foot. It would be much more sensible to put out publicity proving that bicycling on most ordinary roads is actually quite safe, and very beneficial. It can also be very useful. I've noticed a change in our bike club. ISMT a high percentage of people who have joined in the past five years strongly prefer to ride on trails. They'll drive 50 miles to some distant trail, off load bikes to ride back and forth on the trail, and consider it a big adventure. I'd consider it a long drive followed by a boring ride. Gee, I hate to agree with Frank but... When I was growing up a bicycle was a thing for kids. My father bought me one - 2nd, 3rd, who knows, hand from the guy that worked on the next farm, for four dollars, when I was about 12 years old. No one ever mentioned "safety" in conjunction with me and my bicycle and in the summer months I rode it everywhere as did every other boy in town. In the mid - late 1960's I was living in Riverside, California and both my kids had bicycles and again I never heard any mention of safety. Now I read how dangerous bicycling is. That there MUST be special paths for bicycles, that one MUST wear special safety equipment, and on and on, although a perusal of the numbers of bicycle deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclis...n_U.S._by_year shows that there were actually fewer bike deaths in 2017 than there were in the 1980's. As an aside the number of auto deaths in 2017 are lower then they were in the 1980's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_...n_U.S._by_year As a further aside, several studies have shown that as many as 60% of bicycle /auto collisions are the fault of the cyclist which might lead one to ask whither bicycle riding is dangerous of whether bicycle riders are dangerous? -- cheers, John B. |
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#12
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Decline in bicycling?
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 10:44:15 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/27/2020 10:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic, I think I can answer that question.) https://patch.com/florida/southtampa...line-bicycling I'm sure things can be very difficult for an independent local shop. I wonder about Andrew's experience with such pressures. Not news. The past few years have been absolutely brutal to my industry. That said, individual dealers are each a subset of 'the bicycle business' and have their own individual strengths, advantages, challenges and burdens. Yellow Jersey must have third and fourth generation customers by now, after nearly 50 years in business. Plus the only bike shop where one can buy Lubriplate since I was a kid! |
#13
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Decline in bicycling?
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 9:52:33 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/27/2020 1:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Monday, 27 January 2020 12:00:41 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic, I think I can answer that question.) The article ties the drop in commuter ridership to the fear of traffic and the highest bicycle death rate in the nation. You are now treading in that area between perceived danger and actual danger. It may actually suck to ride on surface streets to commute to work in Tampa as opposed to riding on one of the MUPs or linear park trails, which typically don't get you where you need to go as a commuter. The more interesting question is why a drop if the roads were equally dangerous in 2017. We had a drop in PDX, but nothing has changed -- except maybe car traffic has gotten worse. What we need is a survey to find out why people who rode in 2017 aren't riding in 2019. It could be reasons totally unrelated to road conditions, e.g. working from home. -- Jay Beattie. Perhaps in Florida it's because of drivers who plow into a group of 15+ bicyclist of which 2 die of injuries; and the driver doesn't even get charged with reckless driving although she was 10+ MPH over the speed limit and was not looking at the road in front of her at the time she hit them? It's talked about in t his thread. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ch/5abS9erOsto I think a big part of many giving up bicycling on roads is the perceived dangers posed by distracted drivers and the extremely lenient sentences those drivers get if they hit or hit and kill a bicyclist. Distracted driving seems to be increasing yearly and the penalties for it if someone is hit are ridiculously light. One might hold that USA is too lenient for inattentive automobile pilots (and I'd agree). Then there's CH, a different culture entirely! https://www.ticinonews.ch/svizzera/4...ni-di-prigione German tourist cycling in Switzerland dumps his bike, breaking a rib. Swiss police track him down and fine him 150 Swiss Francs for 'not being in control of vehicle' on public roads. He won't pay and takes the two days in jail instead. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Some 25 years ago my friend and I were climbing from Zweizimmen to Saanen in Switzerland. For a while a police car was slowly following us for quite a while and eventually stopped us asking where we were from. As it became clear to him that we were foreigners he said it was all OK. From what I understood Swiss cyclists had to pay some taxes and he was looking for a tag on our bikes. I still can't believe that. On the other hand they have some more weird rules over there. Lou |
#14
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Decline in bicycling?
Am 28.01.2020 um 08:11 schrieb :
Some 25 years ago my friend and I were climbing from Zweizimmen to Saanen in Switzerland. For a while a police car was slowly following us for quite a while and eventually stopped us asking where we were from. As it became clear to him that we were foreigners he said it was all OK. From what I understood Swiss cyclists had to pay some taxes and he was looking for a tag on our bikes. I still can't believe that. On the other hand they have some more weird rules over there. Switzerland did have compulsory third-party insurance for bicycles, like for mopeds, until 2011 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velovignette (German only). Until 1989, this included registration of your bicycle in the city of residence. |
#15
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Decline in bicycling?
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 9:33:03 AM UTC+1, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 28.01.2020 um 08:11 schrieb : Some 25 years ago my friend and I were climbing from Zweizimmen to Saanen in Switzerland. For a while a police car was slowly following us for quite a while and eventually stopped us asking where we were from. As it became clear to him that we were foreigners he said it was all OK. From what I understood Swiss cyclists had to pay some taxes and he was looking for a tag on our bikes. I still can't believe that. On the other hand they have some more weird rules over there. Switzerland did have compulsory third-party insurance for bicycles, like for mopeds, until 2011 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velovignette (German only). Until 1989, this included registration of your bicycle in the city of residence. Ah, that explains it. Thanx. Lou |
#16
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Decline in bicycling?
lou.holtman wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 9:33:03 AM UTC+1, Rolf Mantel wrote: Am 28.01.2020 um 08:11 schrieb : Some 25 years ago my friend and I were climbing from Zweizimmen to Saanen in Switzerland. For a while a police car was slowly following us for quite a while and eventually stopped us asking where we were from. At this point, I was suspecting the police might have had difficultites distinguishing a flatlander's climbing style from a substance-impaired Helvetian's. A similar problem cyclists have had watching Hollywood actors' oscillate their bikes without even being aware it shows. By countrast, Italian movies at least skillfully exploited the actors's supposed lack of training: http://www.klovesradeln.de/typisch-7...italo-malizia/ As it became clear to him that we were foreigners he said it was all OK. From what I understood Swiss cyclists had to pay some taxes and he was looking for a tag on our bikes. I still can't believe that. On the other hand they have some more weird rules over there. Interesting that someone from one small country would call another's rules "weird" in a state of being ignorant about them. One could, of course, argue that Andreas Oehler's boycott of travel to Switzerland is worse: Herr Oehler's stated reason is that they vote more right-wing than he likes. Switzerland did have compulsory third-party insurance for bicycles, like for mopeds, until 2011 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velovignette (German only). Until 1989, this included registration of your bicycle in the city of residence. Ah, that explains it. Thanx. Congratulations to Rolf for curing 25 years of ignorance. |
#17
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Decline in bicycling?
AMuzi wrote:
One might hold that USA is too lenient for inattentive automobile pilots (and I'd agree). Then there's CH, a different culture entirely! https://www.ticinonews.ch/svizzera/4...ni-di-prigione German tourist cycling in Switzerland dumps his bike, breaking a rib. Swiss police track him down and fine him 150 Swiss Francs for 'not being in control of vehicle' on public roads. He won't pay and takes the two days in jail instead. Pictures of the mishandled obstacle: https://ais.badische-zeitung.de/piece/0a/db/90/b0/182161584-h-720.jpg https://img.blick.ch/incoming/15719211-v0-bildschirmfoto-2020-01-25-um-14-43-21.png?imwidth=1000&ratio=FREE&x=0&y=0&width=1012& height=692 Who is that 66-y.o. who does not know to say "I don't know anything" when police starts asking for more than his travel documents? Was it a case of the Swiss judiciary (proactively?) taking revenge to move the focus from a cyclist-endangering obstacle on a downhill slope and trying to prevent his health insurance from suing the city to get recover cost? We don't know. What we do know is that he's a helmet wearing, city-touring bike riding boomer from the greenie-leftie, wine-drinker dominated area of Freiburg-im-Breisgau. He's the silver-haired musician trying to teach rhythm or drumming to Merkelism's imports in their separate -- but aaabsolutely Equal! -- class, thanks to do-gooder, laissez-fail multiculturalism: http://www.kastelbergschule.de/index...n.html?start=7 Looking at the Soros-globalist ideology and the questionable writing proficiency displayed on the uppermost photograph, it tells you everything you would ever want to know about that school's warped priorities. |
#18
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Decline in bicycling?
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 11:01:57 AM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Andreas Oehler's boycott of travel to Switzerland is worse: Herr Oehler's stated reason is that they vote more right-wing than he likes. The Swiss go only one way in my estimation -- up. That I'm not likely to run into Andreas Oehler in Switzerland is an added attraction. That man doesn't have the faintest sense of commercial and moral proprieties, as witness his comparative tests of his own employer's goods against competitors' products, which his employer's gear, and that of BUMM, with whom Schmidt Machinenbau has a relationship so close it is best described as parasitic, always come out on top. I could just about put up with Oehler's sense of entitlement when he came on RBT, but his biased tests are another matter altogether, and I have to wonder where he gets the gall from to call himself morally superior to the Swiss. I bet the Swiss policeman who stopped Lou and his friend was unarmed and punctiliously polite. Contrast with a Virginia, `USA, policeman who stopped me for a mickey mouse speeding offence and approached me with a drawn pistol.. He was also rude: "I don't care **** if you have a diplomatic passport." Andre Jute Collector of bizarre circumstances |
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Decline in bicycling?
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 12:01:57 PM UTC+1, Sepp Ruf wrote:
lou.holtman wrote: On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 9:33:03 AM UTC+1, Rolf Mantel wrote: Am 28.01.2020 um 08:11 schrieb : Some 25 years ago my friend and I were climbing from Zweizimmen to Saanen in Switzerland. For a while a police car was slowly following us for quite a while and eventually stopped us asking where we were from. At this point, I was suspecting the police might have had difficultites distinguishing a flatlander's climbing style from a substance-impaired Helvetian's. A similar problem cyclists have had watching Hollywood actors' oscillate their bikes without even being aware it shows. By countrast, Italian movies at least skillfully exploited the actors's supposed lack of training: http://www.klovesradeln.de/typisch-7...italo-malizia/ As it became clear to him that we were foreigners he said it was all OK. From what I understood Swiss cyclists had to pay some taxes and he was looking for a tag on our bikes. I still can't believe that. On the other hand they have some more weird rules over there. Interesting that someone from one small country would call another's rules "weird" in a state of being ignorant about them. One could, of course, argue that Andreas Oehler's boycott of travel to Switzerland is worse: Herr Oehler's stated reason is that they vote more right-wing than he likes. Switzerland did have compulsory third-party insurance for bicycles, like for mopeds, until 2011 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velovignette (German only). Until 1989, this included registration of your bicycle in the city of residence. Ah, that explains it. Thanx. Congratulations to Rolf for curing 25 years of ignorance. Indeed I didn't know and a 'license' plate for a bike is at least unusual, but that is their own business. My opinion about the Swiss is based on my experience with them during my 5 or 6 wintersport holidays, 4 summer holidays and several passing through the country on the way to France and Italy. I have a choice and for the last 15 years I decided to take my business elsewhere. YMMV. Lou |
#20
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Decline in bicycling?
On 1/27/2020 9:00 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 8:22:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote: Decline in bicycling? Gosh, how can that be, with the constant construction of new "safe" facilities? (Actually, as a facility skeptic, I think I can answer that question.) The article ties the drop in commuter ridership to the fear of traffic and the highest bicycle death rate in the nation. You are now treading in that area between perceived danger and actual danger. It may actually suck to ride on surface streets to commute to work in Tampa as opposed to riding on one of the MUPs or linear park trails, which typically don't get you where you need to go as a commuter. The more interesting question is why a drop if the roads were equally dangerous in 2017. We had a drop in PDX, but nothing has changed -- except maybe car traffic has gotten worse. What we need is a survey to find out why people who rode in 2017 aren't riding in 2019. It could be reasons totally unrelated to road conditions, e.g. working from home. In my area cycling is up, at least for commuting (which is all that cities measure). It's still a very low percentage but we'll take every percentage point, or fraction of a percentage point that we can get. Public transit use continues to decline. eBikes are beginning to affect cycling rates because it's more practical to do a longer commute on an eBike, and almost always faster than public transit for commutes under 15 miles. Bikeshare is also contributing to an increase in cycling in cities in California. I used it last year in Long Beach, and there's a good app for that that lets you know which stations have bikes available. In my own city, the number of bicycle shops has remained pretty constant. One rather poor shop closed, but very good shop opened up a few blocks away. One developer has plans for a parcel that contains an iconic bicycle shop, and it's not clear what's going to happen to that shop, and if it can be accommodated in the redevelopment. Helmets seem to always be brought up in these discussions. While helmet compulsion for adults is not something anyone here is pushing for, It's worth noting that about four decades of helmet education (along with many state and local mandatory helmet laws for youth) have yielded a significant benefit in terms of injuries and fatality reduction in the United States. Since the 1980s, when helmet usage increased significantly, bicycling fatalities have decreased despite increased traffic congestion and increased numbers of cyclists. An unintended side effect of helmet promotion and youth helmet laws is the mistaken notion by many that a helmet makes cycling perfectly safe and is license to ignore other things to promote safe cycling, riding predictably, investing in separated bicycle infrastructure like The Netherlands, and using good lights, day and night. However, on the plus side, this unintended side effect has gotten more cyclists out on the road, and most people agree that increasing the number of cyclists is effective at reducing crashes. There are also the health benefits that are accrued as a result of more people cycling. If someone believes that wearing a helmet makes it perfectly safe to be out on a bicycle, don't argue with them, but gently inform them that they should also be taking other safety precautions. Speaking only for myself. |
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