Another Helmet Thread

On 7/1/2013 11:50 AM, Dan O wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2013 6:35:45 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 6/30/2013 9:49 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:



It is uncontroverted that helmets prevent certain injuries. Say that. It will set you free. Resist the urge to make any statement about the risks of walking, gardening or other activities. We're just talking about the protective benefits of helmets.


He's already done the first part pretty much. That's _why_ he always has

the irresistible urge to make the statements about pedestrian helmets,

gardening helmets, driving helmets, etc..
Garlic and vampires.


Crossing Jordan, I won't fear. Hallelu.
Crossing Jordan, I won't fear. Hallelu. Hallelu.
Crossing Jordan, I won't fear - Jesus will be the engineer.
Then I'll need that true religion, Hallelu.

On 7/1/2013 3:09 PM, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 7/1/2013 2:23 PM, Dan wrote:
Sir Ridesalot writes:

On Monday, July 1, 2013 11:56:51 AM UTC-4, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:43:54 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:

The ironic thing is that there are many activities
where protective
equipment is available but often not required (at least
for adults), and
no one is screaming about how the availability of such
equipment makes
others think that the activity is exceptionally
dangerous. We went
kayaking on Saturday. I can't recall there ever being a
drowning in the
slough where we were. The rental companies train
participants in how to
prevent a capsize and the slough isn't very wide or
deep, yet almost
everyone wears a PFD even though PFD's aren't that
comfortable.


The U.S. averages about 4000 accidental drownings per
year. Look it up. The U.S. averages about 730 bike
fatalities per year. Which is the bigger problem?



PFDs are almost total proof against drowning. Helmets
are nowhere near total proof against bike fatalities,
despite astonishing hype to the contrary.



Now, when a person chooses not to wear a PFD when
kayaking on calm waters (which, BTW, is very common) are
bystanders yelling "Where's your PFD?" Are people be
writing letters and internet comments saying "They
shouldn't get insurance coverage" or "they shouldn't be
rescued"? Do kayak shops really have posters saying
"Always wear your PFD!" Somehow, the kayak shop run by
my friends, seems to have forgotten to put up such a
poster.



I don't know anything about the per-hour fatality rate
of kayaking & canoeing, vs. that of bicycling. But I
strongly suspect that bicycling is safer, yet gets much
more fear mongering. IOW, I think Scharf is not alone
in his anti-cycling rhetoric.



- Frank Krygowski
"PFDs are almost total proof against drowning. Helmets
are nowhere near total proof against bike fatalities,
despite astonishing hype to the contrary."

Sorry to burst your bubble but a PFD is NOT almost total
proof against drowning. A PFD, which can be something as
simple as a seat cushion, does NOT KEEP THE FACE OUT OF
THE WATER IF THE PERSON IS UNCONCIOUS OR
INCAPACITATED/Fatigued. You are thinking of a LIFEJACKET
which WILL keep a head out of the water. There's a huge
difference between a PFD and a lifejacket.

They are more demonstrably effective, as their function is
something that can easily and ethically be tested.

They are probably more effective, as well, but we just
don't really know. Apples and oranges... er, more like
apples and chicken soup, anyway. The hazards they are
intended to protect against are equally disparate (though
a PFD might cushion a blow to the head, and a closed cell
foam helmet liner might help keep you afloat. Hmmm... )

But some concepts are apply to the discussion. PFD's,
for example, are *required* for every passenger on boats
here, I think; and the public authorities consistently
say to *always* use them.

What do PFDs have to do with cycling?


In Portland or elsewhere?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo-XnPJRJVg

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 15:30:04 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

What do PFDs have to do with cycling?


In Portland or elsewhere? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo-XnPJRJVg


Canada has been a bit wet too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VRvbqo2M3w



--
davethedave

On 02/07/13 01:07, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2013 12:49:07 AM UTC-4, Jay Beattie wrote:

It is uncontroverted that helmets prevent certain injuries. Say
that. It will set you free. Resist the urge to make any statement
about the risks of walking, gardening or other activities. We're
just talking about the protective benefits of helmets.

OK. A few days ago, helping my son-in-law, I bumped my head while
trying to fetch a ladder in his garage. A helmet certainly would
have prevented that injury. So I believe they do prevent certain
injuries. Now I feel so free! ;-)

How odd that such a fact is considered adequate justification for
"Never ride your bicycle without wearing a helmet!" Does such
thinking apply to _any_ other protective device for _any_ other
activity?

Yes. I voluntarily wear eye and ear protection while operating many of
my power tools. The angle grinder and 13hp 4 stroke mulcher are good
examples.

--
JS

On Monday, July 1, 2013 12:19:33 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2013 8:09:25 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Monday, July 1, 2013 1:10:19 AM UTC-4, Dan wrote:











Consider: If no MHL were ever possible, and practical,







comfortable, inexpensive, 100% effective helmets were







feasible, would Frank have a problem with them?







For which activity?





Any activity the wearer chooses to engage in.

I look forward to the promotion of ladder helmets, stair helmets, jogging helmets, 100-yard dash helmets, basketball helmets, playground helmets...

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscart.../aton3264l.jpg

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, July 1, 2013 5:30:04 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
On 02/07/13 01:07, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Monday, July 1, 2013 12:49:07 AM UTC-4, Jay Beattie wrote:



It is uncontroverted that helmets prevent certain injuries. Say

that. It will set you free. Resist the urge to make any statement

about the risks of walking, gardening or other activities. We're

just talking about the protective benefits of helmets.



OK. A few days ago, helping my son-in-law, I bumped my head while

trying to fetch a ladder in his garage. A helmet certainly would

have prevented that injury. So I believe they do prevent certain

injuries. Now I feel so free! ;-)



How odd that such a fact is considered adequate justification for

"Never ride your bicycle without wearing a helmet!" Does such

thinking apply to _any_ other protective device for _any_ other

activity?



Yes. I voluntarily wear eye and ear protection while operating many of

my power tools. The angle grinder and 13hp 4 stroke mulcher are good

examples.

The point was that very flimsy helmets can certainly be demonstrated to prevent _some_ tiny injuries. The little bump to my head while getting that ladder down would have been prevented by any helmet. The bump was light enough that it would also have been prevented by a stocking cap.

But only in helmet discussions is any slightly non-zero benefit considered all that's necessary for enthusiastic promotions.

About your angle grinder: I taught a machine shop class for many years. Anyone in the room had to wear eye protection. But the eye protection couldn't consist of dime store sunglasses, even though those certainly provide _some_ protection. We required eye protection that met realistic standards. (The school safety officer chose the ones the school had available for sale.)

- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 07:30:04 +1000, James wrote:

On 02/07/13 01:07, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, July 1, 2013 12:49:07 AM UTC-4, Jay Beattie wrote:

It is uncontroverted that helmets prevent certain injuries. Say that.
It will set you free. Resist the urge to make any statement about the
risks of walking, gardening or other activities. We're just talking
about the protective benefits of helmets.

OK. A few days ago, helping my son-in-law, I bumped my head while
trying to fetch a ladder in his garage. A helmet certainly would have
prevented that injury. So I believe they do prevent certain injuries.
Now I feel so free! ;-)

How odd that such a fact is considered adequate justification for
"Never ride your bicycle without wearing a helmet!" Does such thinking
apply to _any_ other protective device for _any_ other activity?

Yes. I voluntarily wear eye and ear protection while operating many of
my power tools. The angle grinder and 13hp 4 stroke mulcher are good
examples.

### ### #####
# # # # ## ##### ### ### # #
# # # # # # # ### ### #
# # ###### # # # # # ##
# ## # # # ###### # #
## ## # # # # # ### ###
# # # # # # # ### ### #







##### #### # # ###### #####
# # # # # # # # #
# # # # # # ##### # #
##### # # # ## # # #####
# # # ## ## # # #
# #### # # ###### # #

#####
##### #### #### # #### # #
# # # # # # # #
# # # # # # #### ##
# # # # # # # #
# # # # # # # #
# #### #### ###### #### #


--
davethedave

On Monday, July 1, 2013 10:30:04 PM UTC+1, James wrote:

I voluntarily wear eye and ear protection while operating many of

my power tools. The angle grinder and 13hp 4 stroke mulcher are good

examples.

Do you know that, every time you wear protective gear, you are giving aid and comfort by your silent vote for the people who hold back power tool development by claiming it is dangerous.

Andre Jute
(standing in for Frank Krygowski who is unavoidably detained by men in white coats...)

On Monday, July 1, 2013 11:35:07 PM UTC+1, davethedave wrote:

### ### #####

# # # # ## ##### ### ### # #

# # # # # # # ### ### #

# # ###### # # # # # ##

# ## # # # ###### # #

## ## # # # # # ### ###

# # # # # # # ### ### #















##### #### # # ###### #####

# # # # # # # # #

# # # # # # ##### # #

##### # # # ## # # #####

# # # ## ## # # #

# #### # # ###### # #



#####

##### #### #### # #### # #

# # # # # # # #

# # # # # # #### ##

# # # # # # # #

# # # # # # # #

# #### #### ###### #### #

This is shocking, Dave. Who dared to censor you?

Andre Jute

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 15:43:56 -0700, Andre Jute wrote:

#####
##### #### #### # #### # #
# # # # # # # #
# # # # # # #### ##
# # # # # # # #
# # # # # # # #
# #### #### ###### #### #

This is shocking, Dave. Who dared to censor you?


WHAT!? WAS I SHOUTING AGAIN?

I CAN'T HEAR A THING!

I haven't even laid into the images saved as text in the gimp yet.
--
davethedave