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#21
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Do tires make a difference in ride feel?
Ivar Hesselager wrote:
26 Mar 2006 01:48:15 GMT, skrev: I haven't been on the Jaufen pass in many years. You must be thinking of someone else. Jobst Brandt As I wrote - on the way down from Timmelsjoch - not Jaufenpass. Must have been the summer of 2004. Still no recollection? Must have been some other grumpy old man. Can Mr. Brandt not easy be recognized by his bike? A yellow one with a huge headtube length Lou -- Posted by news://news.nb.nu |
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#22
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Do tires make a difference in ride feel?
Diablo Scott wrote: I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on the same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special offers. Just got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi Make that 57tpi. Continental cheats by counting all three layers and so multiplying what would be the figures of other manufacturers by 3. They have some good reason for doing this. For example, their Sport 1000s are only 21tpi, so it certainly sounds more competitve with other manufacturers to say 84tpi (there's one extra thread at the edge). Grand Prix and Ultra 2000, also 57tpi actual; Grand Prix "Super Sonic" (NOT) 62tpi, Grand Prix 3000, 4 Season, 86tpi. Compare with quality tires that are 33tpi for cheapies (Michelin Dynamic), 66tpi for inexpensive or normal (Panaracer, IRC and Avocet 25mm), and 127 for high-end, =25mm: IRC, Avocet, Michelin. 57tpi is reasonably close to 66, so UltraGatorskin, and the Ultra 2000, are reasonable tires. I have a folding one in 28 as a spare, because it came with brown sidewalls, slick carbon tread, and a $17.95 price tag. New production has black sidewalls, which may also indicate they fixed the problem with their formerly cotton chafing protectors unravelling into kite string and wrapping around the cluster, "only under specific environmental conditions", according to Conti reps.e |
#24
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Do tires make a difference in ride feel?
Diablo Scott writes:
I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on the same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special offers. Just got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi I don't believe a word of it. 170TPI is a 0.006" (1/170) diameter thread, better than any silk track tire made. "Ultra Gatorskin" is also Continental hyperbole of the worst kind. They have mediocre tires but superlative marketeers who come up with these phrases and names that appeal to the enthusiast. Jobst Brandt |
#25
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Do tires make a difference in ride feel?
George King writes:
I have a stash of light colored bare-wall Avocet ROAD 20 tires that meet my expectation although not as good as the original ones made by IRC. You've mentioned this before but do you mean blackwall? I thought all tan sidewall production was Japan, and Korea was black. More importantly, could you explain what the difference is between whichever two it is that bothers you, whether in construction, performance, or durability? As I said, I have purchased these a while back and still have enough to go for a while. Then I'll have to see what's available. The black casings have had flaws that caused bulges and the tread is back-ass-wards, with a thin coating of the high durability rubber over a thick body of the faster wearing rubber. This is visible as the tire wears in that a rougher texture shows up. (Wear rate is proportional to surface roughness according to Schallamach). http://www.pse.umass.edu/crosby/researchprojects.html IRC out of bicycle tire business: I imagine you mean they sub-contracted the production to a Korean entity, to whom they also sold the equipment. A while back, when IRC changed their own Road Winners and others to black wall, a friend with similar concerns wrote them to ask a "say it isn't so" question. This was the reply from IRC he forwarded: ========================================== # Thanks you for your comments. # The reason the IRC website shows only the all-black Roadwinner is in # response to current fashion. 85% of the Roadwinner sales for 2004 # were with the all-black configuration. # However, the Roadwinner is still available in a skin-wall from # several US distributors. I believe that it would not be difficult # for your local shop to track down and order the size, color and # sans-Kevlar belt options you prefer. I know for a fact that J&B # importers distributes these tires in many sizes and colors. # Here's are a few comments to chew on, however: # * There might be a bit of a misconception regarding the sidewall # colors, however. The black skin-wall tires are the same, exact # material and construction as the skin-wall tires. Only the rubber # compound color is different. There are some cheaper tires that # employ a thicker sidewall material (or gumwall) available in both # black and the yellowish color, but this is mostly reserved for # low-end product construction. # * Also, I believe it is actually easier to detect a worn out # sidewall casing with the black skin-wall. The tire cords are light # in color (almost the same as the skin-wall rubber compound # color). When the sidewalls are worn, heavy creasing will occur on # the black sidewalls, thus revealing the light-colored casing # threads. The contrast of these two colors provides a good visual # warning, although I must say that tread itself usually cracks far # before the sidewalls blowout with IRC tires. # * One final point, the all-black versions actually hold up better to # ultra-violet exposure. The yellow-color rubber compound contains no # carbon and is there for less stable. # Thank you again for taking the time to write IRC. # Regards, # [representative@] | IRC North America # 2900 3rd Avenue North Seattle, WA 98109-1733 USA # www.IRCTire.com ================================================== ============ That's it. My tires don't live long enough to suffer ultra-violet damage. Jobst Brandt |
#26
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Do tires make a difference in ride feel?
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#27
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Do tires make a difference in ride feel?
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:45:56 -0800, jim beam wrote:
so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the last couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what exactly does that hurt? What makes you say that? What progress can you point to? You can't compare to the tires of 30 years ago, and show improvement. Actually, that's Jobst's claim to fame here; he worked to get Avocet to make a clincher tire that could approximate (not exceed, approximate) the performance of the Clement Campionato del Mundo. The problem with bicycle tires is that the best material, silk casing, is no longer available at prices we can afford. This is probably due to the decline in slave labor. As far as rubber compounds, it is highly debatable that there has been any improvement. Until you see someone with serious money to invest, like Nascar, using colored rubber tires, you won't have much of an argument for their superiority. But we see colored rubber touted as the best thing since sliced bread. It's marketing, not engineering, that wins in this market. -- David L. Johnson __o | Let's be straight here. If we find something we can't _`\(,_ | understand we like to call it something you can't understand, or (_)/ (_) | indeed even pronounce. -- Douglas Adams |
#28
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Do tires make a difference in ride feel?
David L. Johnson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:45:56 -0800, jim beam wrote: so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the last couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what exactly does that hurt? What makes you say that? What progress can you point to? You can't compare to the tires of 30 years ago, and show improvement. there's grip and there's rolling resistance. with carbon reinforced rubbers, the hysteresis characteristics of the compound means you can choose one or the other. with silica reinforced rubbers, you can have both. Actually, that's Jobst's claim to fame here; he worked to get Avocet to make a clincher tire that could approximate (not exceed, approximate) the performance of the Clement Campionato del Mundo. jobst is solely focused on rolling resistance for a polished steel drum. where does grip enter his research? and what are your local roads paved with? The problem with bicycle tires is that the best material, silk casing, is no longer available at prices we can afford. This is probably due to the decline in slave labor. As far as rubber compounds, it is highly debatable that there has been any improvement. Until you see someone with serious money to invest, like Nascar, using colored rubber tires, you won't have much of an argument for their superiority. But we see colored rubber touted as the best thing since sliced bread. It's marketing, not engineering, that wins in this market. so what about the marketing? the technology is a matter of fact, not r.b.t ludditism. inability to seek or assimilate information is not a basis for criticism. besides, silica rubbers are more expensive to produce than carbon rubbers, so there's absolutely /no/ reason to use them if marketing alone can sufficiently differentiate product. |
#29
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Do tires make a difference in ride feel?
Diablo Scott writes:
I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on the same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special offers. Just got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi wrote: I don't believe a word of it. 170TPI is a 0.006" (1/170) diameter thread, better than any silk track tire made. "Ultra Gatorskin" is also Continental hyperbole of the worst kind. They have mediocre tires but superlative marketeers who come up with these phrases and names that appeal to the enthusiast. I don't have any relation ship with Continental but when I see them on bikes here for service it's clear the thread counts are very low - heck, even I can count up to 20 with a ruler. (My eyes cannot resolve 127tpi threads without a maginfier) -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#30
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Do tires make a difference in ride feel?
In article ,
jim beam wrote: David L. Johnson wrote: On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:45:56 -0800, jim beam wrote: so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the last couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what exactly does that hurt? What makes you say that? What progress can you point to? You can't compare to the tires of 30 years ago, and show improvement. there's grip and there's rolling resistance. with carbon reinforced rubbers, the hysteresis characteristics of the compound means you can choose one or the other. with silica reinforced rubbers, you can have both. So far that's not what's happened where the silica meets the road. Especially in the wet. Been lots of discussion of this, check it out sometime. Actually, that's Jobst's claim to fame here; he worked to get Avocet to make a clincher tire that could approximate (not exceed, approximate) the performance of the Clement Campionato del Mundo. jobst is solely focused on rolling resistance for a polished steel drum. where does grip enter his research? and what are your local roads paved with? Good grief, jim. Can you pick tinier nits? And if you haven't been paying attention, you'd know that Jobst tested grip with a tilt table. |
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