Titanium and Frame Size

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Steel is a wonbderful material, will ride well and last formyears and years. Ti
has few advantages over good steel. Not much other than no corrosion(not a big
deal with steel if ya take care of it) and perhaps a wee bit l;ighter(3.5 lb
steel frames are common as are to frames).

Why are Ti frames not much lighter than steel frames?

Ti is much stronger for the same weight than steel is,
and Ti is much lighter for the same strength than steel
is (although it will still take up more volume due to
the its lower density, so like aluminum it will have
oversized tubes).

So if anyone is making a titanium frame and not using
the strength/weight advantage to reduce the weight
significantly, they're missing the point.

Fit is key, don't expect ti to make for a magical difference in your ride.

Training makes the magical difference in a ride.

--Blair
"I have proof."

I'm thinking about Serotta, Seven, Moots. I'm 5'7" 150lbs and ride
longer "fun" rides. I do love to get out of the saddle on the hills.
Considering these great makers, I have heard rave reviews about all of
them. Interestingly, I seem to notice alot of the owners all pretty
big guys, over 6', more than 200. I am wondering if my size and riding
style are not as appropriate for titanium because of the larger tubes,
and in particular those bikes using the more attractively priced
straight tubes.

No particular reason why larger guys are riding on Ti bikes; in fact, I'd
say the opposite would be true if you surveyed people in my area. If
appropriately constructed, frame material isn't much of a consideration,
especially for middle-of-the-road sizes. Steel and Ti, as used by most
(not all)frame builders, may be a bit flexy in larger sizes. This can be
dealt with by using larger-diameter tubing, but not too many people do that
(partly because it gets costly and the materials may simply not be readily
available in non-standard sizing, and partly because of the added weight).

But you're talking middle-of-the-road stuff here, so Steel, Aluminum, Ti &
Carbon can all be used to build an extremely nice frame without modification
from normal building practices.

Any guys more my size (or even not) have thoughts on this? Would
quality steel (am riding an 853 Lemond now) serve just as well? I'd
love to have a bike that soaks it up like my current, but felt faster
and quicker on the hills. Most of my desire is rational, but of course
there is always a degree of "bike sickness."

Steel builds a very nice frame, but your weight floor (the lightest you can
build something that's very durable) is about 3.5 lbs or so. With Ti you
can get down to just over 3 lbs. Using aluminum, my experience is that the
floor is about 2.8 lbs, while Carbon Fiber can get you down to 2.4 lbs,
maybe even a bit less. There are plenty of people building bikes from these
materials with lighter weights, but experience shows that doing so carries
costs in terms of overall lifespan and durability under adverse conditions
(crashing).

I understand fit is most important, and of course all can custom fit.
Thanks in advance, and may the petulant not flame.

In a later post you mention that you have a longer torso and shorter legs,
which, with modern sloping-top-tube bikes, is very easy to accommodate.
Don't buy a custom bike because you think it's going to magically fit you
better; my guess is that the current Klein & LeMond bikes, with their
moderately-sloping top tubes, would work great.

The reason for getting a custom bike, for most people, is to have something
that offers a sense of uniqueness, a bike that was built for you and which
nobody else has the exact same thing. Some people put a high value on
uniqueness, and even prefer something that costs more because that, also,
enhances its exclusivity. Hey, if that's what it takes for you to want to
ride more, go for it. But don't assume it's necessary for the best-possible
ride. In fact, by going custom you often give up technologies that don't
lend themselves to one-up craftsmanship (such as the manner in which TREKs
OCLV carbon bikes are built).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"skim500" wrote in message
om...
I'm thinking about Serotta, Seven, Moots. I'm 5'7" 150lbs and ride
longer "fun" rides. I do love to get out of the saddle on the hills.
Considering these great makers, I have heard rave reviews about all of
them. Interestingly, I seem to notice alot of the owners all pretty
big guys, over 6', more than 200. I am wondering if my size and riding
style are not as appropriate for titanium because of the larger tubes,
and in particular those bikes using the more attractively priced
straight tubes.

Any guys more my size (or even not) have thoughts on this? Would
quality steel (am riding an 853 Lemond now) serve just as well? I'd
love to have a bike that soaks it up like my current, but felt faster
and quicker on the hills. Most of my desire is rational, but of course
there is always a degree of "bike sickness."

I understand fit is most important, and of course all can custom fit.
Thanks in advance, and may the petulant not flame.

skim

I'm thinking about Serotta, Seven, Moots. I'm 5'7" 150lbs and ride
longer "fun" rides. I do love to get out of the saddle on the hills.
Considering these great makers, I have heard rave reviews about all of
them. Interestingly, I seem to notice alot of the owners all pretty
big guys, over 6', more than 200. I am wondering if my size and riding
style are not as appropriate for titanium because of the larger tubes,
and in particular those bikes using the more attractively priced
straight tubes.

No particular reason why larger guys are riding on Ti bikes; in fact, I'd
say the opposite would be true if you surveyed people in my area. If
appropriately constructed, frame material isn't much of a consideration,
especially for middle-of-the-road sizes. Steel and Ti, as used by most
(not all)frame builders, may be a bit flexy in larger sizes. This can be
dealt with by using larger-diameter tubing, but not too many people do that
(partly because it gets costly and the materials may simply not be readily
available in non-standard sizing, and partly because of the added weight).

But you're talking middle-of-the-road stuff here, so Steel, Aluminum, Ti &
Carbon can all be used to build an extremely nice frame without modification
from normal building practices.

Any guys more my size (or even not) have thoughts on this? Would
quality steel (am riding an 853 Lemond now) serve just as well? I'd
love to have a bike that soaks it up like my current, but felt faster
and quicker on the hills. Most of my desire is rational, but of course
there is always a degree of "bike sickness."

Steel builds a very nice frame, but your weight floor (the lightest you can
build something that's very durable) is about 3.5 lbs or so. With Ti you
can get down to just over 3 lbs. Using aluminum, my experience is that the
floor is about 2.8 lbs, while Carbon Fiber can get you down to 2.4 lbs,
maybe even a bit less. There are plenty of people building bikes from these
materials with lighter weights, but experience shows that doing so carries
costs in terms of overall lifespan and durability under adverse conditions
(crashing).

I understand fit is most important, and of course all can custom fit.
Thanks in advance, and may the petulant not flame.

In a later post you mention that you have a longer torso and shorter legs,
which, with modern sloping-top-tube bikes, is very easy to accommodate.
Don't buy a custom bike because you think it's going to magically fit you
better; my guess is that the current Klein & LeMond bikes, with their
moderately-sloping top tubes, would work great.

The reason for getting a custom bike, for most people, is to have something
that offers a sense of uniqueness, a bike that was built for you and which
nobody else has the exact same thing. Some people put a high value on
uniqueness, and even prefer something that costs more because that, also,
enhances its exclusivity. Hey, if that's what it takes for you to want to
ride more, go for it. But don't assume it's necessary for the best-possible
ride. In fact, by going custom you often give up technologies that don't
lend themselves to one-up craftsmanship (such as the manner in which TREKs
OCLV carbon bikes are built).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"skim500" wrote in message
om...
I'm thinking about Serotta, Seven, Moots. I'm 5'7" 150lbs and ride
longer "fun" rides. I do love to get out of the saddle on the hills.
Considering these great makers, I have heard rave reviews about all of
them. Interestingly, I seem to notice alot of the owners all pretty
big guys, over 6', more than 200. I am wondering if my size and riding
style are not as appropriate for titanium because of the larger tubes,
and in particular those bikes using the more attractively priced
straight tubes.

Any guys more my size (or even not) have thoughts on this? Would
quality steel (am riding an 853 Lemond now) serve just as well? I'd
love to have a bike that soaks it up like my current, but felt faster
and quicker on the hills. Most of my desire is rational, but of course
there is always a degree of "bike sickness."

I understand fit is most important, and of course all can custom fit.
Thanks in advance, and may the petulant not flame.

skim

Blair- Why are Ti frames not much lighter than steel frames? BRBR

They are not. A 'standard' ti frameset, like a Moots or Serotta or Litespeed,
is about 3.3 pounds, some are heaver(Dean). Most of the steel framesets we
sell-Waterford, Nobilette, Torelli are in the 3.3 to 3.7 pound range. There are
very light ti framesets but they are extremely thin walled, have their own
problems(like a Merlin with a crimped seattube from the front der clamp).

Blair Ti is much stronger for the same weight than steel is, BRBR

Yes it is but you imply that steel is somehow weak when applied to a bicycle
frameset. Ti is way overbuilt.

Blair-
So if anyone is making a titanium frame and not using
the strength/weight advantage to reduce the weight
significantly, they're missing the point.
BRBR


I guess all the ti frameset makers, like Serotta, Seven, Litespeed, Moots, etc
are missing the point then.

Four thing make for a better performing cyclist
-fit
-fat
-fitness
-finesse

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Blair- Why are Ti frames not much lighter than steel frames? BRBR

They are not. A 'standard' ti frameset, like a Moots or Serotta or Litespeed,
is about 3.3 pounds, some are heaver(Dean). Most of the steel framesets we
sell-Waterford, Nobilette, Torelli are in the 3.3 to 3.7 pound range. There are
very light ti framesets but they are extremely thin walled, have their own
problems(like a Merlin with a crimped seattube from the front der clamp).

Blair Ti is much stronger for the same weight than steel is, BRBR

Yes it is but you imply that steel is somehow weak when applied to a bicycle
frameset. Ti is way overbuilt.

Blair-
So if anyone is making a titanium frame and not using
the strength/weight advantage to reduce the weight
significantly, they're missing the point.
BRBR


I guess all the ti frameset makers, like Serotta, Seven, Litespeed, Moots, etc
are missing the point then.

Four thing make for a better performing cyclist
-fit
-fat
-fitness
-finesse

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Thank you guys for these informative posts. It isn't easy filtering
out the romanticsm and dogmatism that is a real part of our
enthusiasm, especially when I believe most of it!

Based upon these posts, I have a real feeling that custom is not a
necessity, but perhaps still viable for me. Seven in particular seems
to be an incredible company. If you never seen their brochure, I am
sure it is responsible for a significant part of their sales,
especially "on the fence-er's" like myself. I am not touting them per
se, just reporting. The technical end is impressive to me,
notwithstanding the fact that they publish the weights of each frame
in each size. E.G. "52cm Axiom steel: 3.70 lbs, Axiom Ti: 2.68 lbs".
(These are the "Signature" Seven geometries). Check out their
brochure, it is a marketing masterpiece.

Will a pound help me, particularly considering the typical $1200
surcharge? Okay, I'm not naive to believe that. But as the "dream
bike" I'm still thinking about it. Which leads me to this question:

I understand that tube diameter/wall thickness is what actually
contributes to strength and weight more than material. That being so,
as the typical Ti tube is thicker than steel, I am wondering what you
think contributes to what I have experienced is a "quieter" feeling. I
would think the wider tube diameter would contribute to a harsher
feel.

Thank you. A side note: Mike J, I am mostly a lurker, but have read
many of your posts throughout the years. I am very impressed by your
willingness to help, knowledge, and able to keep level through "cranky
times". We're close enough to you to consider you a LBS and my wife
has got it in her head she wants a Trek OCLV in the next year
(opposites attract eh?), so I'll give you a call to get her sized up.

skim

Thank you guys for these informative posts. It isn't easy filtering
out the romanticsm and dogmatism that is a real part of our
enthusiasm, especially when I believe most of it!

Based upon these posts, I have a real feeling that custom is not a
necessity, but perhaps still viable for me. Seven in particular seems
to be an incredible company. If you never seen their brochure, I am
sure it is responsible for a significant part of their sales,
especially "on the fence-er's" like myself. I am not touting them per
se, just reporting. The technical end is impressive to me,
notwithstanding the fact that they publish the weights of each frame
in each size. E.G. "52cm Axiom steel: 3.70 lbs, Axiom Ti: 2.68 lbs".
(These are the "Signature" Seven geometries). Check out their
brochure, it is a marketing masterpiece.

Will a pound help me, particularly considering the typical $1200
surcharge? Okay, I'm not naive to believe that. But as the "dream
bike" I'm still thinking about it. Which leads me to this question:

I understand that tube diameter/wall thickness is what actually
contributes to strength and weight more than material. That being so,
as the typical Ti tube is thicker than steel, I am wondering what you
think contributes to what I have experienced is a "quieter" feeling. I
would think the wider tube diameter would contribute to a harsher
feel.

Thank you. A side note: Mike J, I am mostly a lurker, but have read
many of your posts throughout the years. I am very impressed by your
willingness to help, knowledge, and able to keep level through "cranky
times". We're close enough to you to consider you a LBS and my wife
has got it in her head she wants a Trek OCLV in the next year
(opposites attract eh?), so I'll give you a call to get her sized up.

skim

"
that offers a sense of uniqueness, a bike that was built for you and which
nobody else has the exact same thing. Some people put a high value on
uniqueness, and even prefer something that costs more because that, also,
enhances its exclusivity. Hey, if that's what it takes for you to want to
ride more, go for it. But don't assume it's necessary for the best-possible
ride. In fact, by going custom you often give up technologies that don't
lend themselves to one-up craftsmanship (such as the manner in which TREKs
OCLV carbon bikes are built).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles

Those technologies also limit how Trek can build their bikes,
if you look at the trail numbers, determined by how many different forks
Trek can afford. The 5xxx bikes vary from 6.2 in small to 5.0 in large
sizes. A small builder would just bend the fork blades to keep consistent
handling across different sizes. If you look the geometry charts you'll
see Treks 23xx frames use the same length chainstays for all sizes,
so you have different weight distribution, more weight on the front end
as bike sizes increases. There are trade offs in using any building
material, and even at the 5$k that Trek charges for some of the OCLV
bikes they can't afford to match fork rake and head angle. Where a small
builder with a big wooden block and a pair of Reynolds fork blades can
precisely match fork rake and head angle and cut chainstays proportional
to frame size. You pays you money and takes your choices.

Scott Goldsmith

"
that offers a sense of uniqueness, a bike that was built for you and which
nobody else has the exact same thing. Some people put a high value on
uniqueness, and even prefer something that costs more because that, also,
enhances its exclusivity. Hey, if that's what it takes for you to want to
ride more, go for it. But don't assume it's necessary for the best-possible
ride. In fact, by going custom you often give up technologies that don't
lend themselves to one-up craftsmanship (such as the manner in which TREKs
OCLV carbon bikes are built).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles

Those technologies also limit how Trek can build their bikes,
if you look at the trail numbers, determined by how many different forks
Trek can afford. The 5xxx bikes vary from 6.2 in small to 5.0 in large
sizes. A small builder would just bend the fork blades to keep consistent
handling across different sizes. If you look the geometry charts you'll
see Treks 23xx frames use the same length chainstays for all sizes,
so you have different weight distribution, more weight on the front end
as bike sizes increases. There are trade offs in using any building
material, and even at the 5$k that Trek charges for some of the OCLV
bikes they can't afford to match fork rake and head angle. Where a small
builder with a big wooden block and a pair of Reynolds fork blades can
precisely match fork rake and head angle and cut chainstays proportional
to frame size. You pays you money and takes your choices.

Scott Goldsmith

RE/
I seem to notice alot of the owners all pretty
big guys, over 6', more than 200.

Can't speak for others, but the reason I bought my "custom" SevenCycles was to
get a frame that fit my too-long bod.

If I were within the normal range of sizes, I would have been just as happy or
happier with one of the several off-the-shelf frames I've owned.
--
PeteCresswell