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The death of rim brakes?



 
 
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  #131  
Old March 15th 19, 02:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 17:42:13 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 7:07:22 PM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 07:39:01 +1100, James
wrote:

On 14/3/19 3:54 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:


I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of
environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when
a cougar eats their pet dog :-)


I think that is acceptable because ... nature.

I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose
some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox
hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-)

There was something similar I read a little while back, about a
Queensland politician who was photographed next to a pile of dead feral
pigs. Apparently it is an annual event, to go shoot a heap of feral
pigs, where he is from. Some city greens got all up tight about it and
proposed that the pigs should be rounded up and sent to a pasture of
their own somewhere. I think they were being serious. Made it all the
more laughable.


My usual argument for the more obnoxious Environmental is to ask
something like "Oh! Will you take a pair of wild pigs at your house".

Their usual response, "Oh! The government's got to do that" to which I
reply, "Are you willing to pay more in taxes to take care of the
pigs?"

The point is that most, if not all, of the devoted are not willing to
actually do anything about what they are ranting and waving their arms
about.

--
Cheers,
John B.


I just love the environmentalists and animal lovers. Some of them re absolutely clueless.

Many years ago I rescued and raised to racoon kits*. One of them used to climb up on me and wrap himself around my neck and go to sleep. He liked children and because of that I'd often take him to a nearby school to do a presentation with the children there. One cool day I was walking to the school and the racoon was wrapped around my neck and dozing. Some woman came up to me and started to berate me for having a dead racoon fur just to keep my neck warm. then she tried to grab the racoon fur and abscond with it. I still chuckle today when I recall the look on her face when the racoon hissed at her and her response, "Oh my God it's alive!" I told her not to be so hasty to judge things.

Cheers

* When I found the two racoon kits it was clear they were abandoned. Unfortunately I could not interest any of the animal welfare groups in our area to look after them and thus I was the one who raised them.


A friend had a whole tribe of pet skunks and if you were a country boy
it would almost make your heart stop to see the mother skunk with a
while parade of kittens walk out from under the couch.

He also had a racoon, an old evil male (boar?) but he wasn't playful,
in fact he would kill, or severely damage, a full grown dog if the dog
attacked him.

--
Cheers,
John B.


Ads
  #132  
Old March 15th 19, 02:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 19:53:38 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/14/2019 5:58 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:07:53 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 12:59:35 PM UTC-4, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/13/2019 4:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 16:07:48 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 3/13/2019 3:40 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
Snipped

I don't get the obsession of reusing spokes. If that turns
you on, fine.
IMHO 'best rim for this rider/usage' can be severely limited
by adding 'within poorly supported ERD'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I don't think it's an obsession to use the old spokes. I think it's because many of us just like to tape the new rim to the old rim and then move the spokes to the new rim without having to unlace t he old wheel. Plus it saves a fair bit of money. Where I am shops cut spokes to length and t hen thread them. My understanding is that those cut threads make a weaker spoke than do spokes with rolled threads.

I have a couple of extra wheels here that have tubular rims on t hem but the hubs and spokes are in excellent condition. If I could get a clincher rim to match the tubular rim so I could use the old spokes by taping the new rim to the old and transferring the spokes to the new rim I would.

YMMV

Cheers

I see 14 gauge spokes with nipples listed on Amazon for $0.10 each in
lots of 36.

Please point me there! The lowest I can find on Amazon are ~$0.27 (US)
each. I looked on Ebay and couldn't get anywhere near that price point.
If they look reliable I'll use them to build wheels at a local
non-profit / pro-bono community bike shop.

Mark J.

I couldn't find the site I originally quoted :-(
But there were a number of sites offering spokes in sets of 36 for
$10.00 or less. Given that the TREK bikes I see listed range from
$11,799, with disc's, to $849, with conventional brakes, a measly ten
bucks is chicken feed.

For high-end Treks, sure. For functional recycled utility bikes that
will be sold on a sliding scale or given away, not so much.

The shop is sitting on a bunch of new donated rims, and it harvests
hubs, many decent ones, from otherwise dead donated wheels. My goal is
to turn those resources into working wheels through donated labor. Put
it all together, and it's marginally competitive with complete wholesale
wheels due to the cost of spokes. (And it's a fair question whether
wheel building is an efficient use of donated skilled time.)

My conjecture is that the rise of the boxed-wheels market has raised the
price of spokes dramatically, as spokes' drop in wholesale/retail volume
requires a much higher price to be worth stocking. I remember getting
basic but name-brand spokes for 20 cents each, now it's closer to a dollar.

Andy M., did I guess right about the market?

Mark J.

Where I am the bicycle shops don't stock different lengths of spokes. They cut and thread spokes to the length you want. Those spokes are a little over a dollar a piece Canadian. SO a 36 spoke wheel is at least $36.00 for new spokes. Add in the cost of a new rim and you can get a reasonable quality Alex rim wheel. That further lessens the demand for spokes. It's a vicious downward spiral.

Cheers


Two or three years ago I popped a couple of spokes in my rear wheel
and didn't have any new spokes so went down to my local bike shop and
bought a set of brand new Shimano wheels. For which I paid something
like $50. I'm still using the wheels today and they still run true.

Why in the world would anyone want to go to all the trouble of
building a set of wheels :-)


Shimano are grey/black. 'nuff said!

http://www.yellowjersey.org/fixrrec.jpg


Goodness! Don't you know that "Black is Beautiful"?

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #133  
Old March 15th 19, 02:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:36:42 +1100, James
wrote:

On 15/3/19 2:17 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote:

How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in
the stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against
the steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a
technology.


Bikes didn't skip drum brake technology because bikes are primitive.
Only a very few bikes adopted drum brakes because that technology wasn't
optimum for bikes.

It's simplistic at best to pretend what's best for one application is
best for all applications. Every design choice comes with benefits and
detriments, and those are not the same for a 4000 pound car as for a 20
pound bike.

Bicycle rim brakes have worked fine for over 99.999% users for the past
100+ years. When mountain bikes came into fashion, some off-roaders
found a different set of benefits vs. detriments, and discs made sense
for them. But then fashion and marketing took over, pushing discs toward
road bikes.

Yes, we'll get a few testimonials here claiming discs are "better." We
get very few details on benefits vs. detriments.



For a while, the trend for road bikes was very narrow tyres pumped up to
very high pressure. 18 mm of tyre is pretty skinny.

Gradually the tyre width had become standard at 23 mm for road bikes.

Now there is an emerging trend to ride wider tyres, with some claiming
much wider tyres are not only as fast but faster! I suspect there is a
diminishing return with wind resistance.

Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the
wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre.
With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that. With a disc brake I don't
need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width. That's a benefit.

In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and
centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it
from centred. Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That
doesn't happen with discs.

It is possible with hydraulic disc callipers to squeeze the brake lever
while the wheel is out, and then have trouble moving the pads apart
again to insert the wheel. That's a detriment, but doesn't affect cable
actuated disc brake callipers.

Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc
callipers. Cable actuated disc callipers are not. Benefit and detriment.

Hydraulic disc systems sometimes need bleeding. This requires either a
visit to a shop or a bit more kit ($30 - $50) for the home maintenance
person. Detriment. Probably not good if you are out on a tour. Cables
are probably more reliable. Cable operated discs work fine, and there
are also cable/hydraulic systems, where the calliper is hydraulic and
self adjusting, and actuated via a cable.

Disc brake modulation is generally better. That is you can hold the
point of not quite skidding more easily. Benefit.

Disc brakes tend to work better in wet weather, or IOW, work the same
regardless of wet weather. Rim brakes rarely work as well when the rims
are wet.

Rim brakes on carbon fibre rims has never been a happy marriage, but
with disc brakes that problem is eliminated. Thus aerodynamic, strong,
stiff, light weight rims are now easier to manufacture and use - made of
carbon fibre.

Rim brakes do erode rims. Disc brakes do not. I guess the disc rotor
will wear out, but I'd rather replace a rotor than a rim.

It seems to me that many people try disc brakes and find few drawbacks.
That's just my opinion, unsubstantiated by statistics.

Are rim brakes good enough? Sure! They have been for a long time. Are
disc brakes better? Yes I think so. Not outstandingly, but better.
I'm not about to have my road bike modified to take disc brakes, and I
wouldn't let the choice of brakes on a new bike dictate what I bought.
YMMV.


And, of course, a disc brake is heavier than a rim brake :-)

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #134  
Old March 15th 19, 04:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,932
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 15/3/19 1:50 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:36:42 +1100, James
wrote:

On 15/3/19 2:17 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote:

How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in
the stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against
the steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a
technology.

Bikes didn't skip drum brake technology because bikes are primitive.
Only a very few bikes adopted drum brakes because that technology wasn't
optimum for bikes.

It's simplistic at best to pretend what's best for one application is
best for all applications. Every design choice comes with benefits and
detriments, and those are not the same for a 4000 pound car as for a 20
pound bike.

Bicycle rim brakes have worked fine for over 99.999% users for the past
100+ years. When mountain bikes came into fashion, some off-roaders
found a different set of benefits vs. detriments, and discs made sense
for them. But then fashion and marketing took over, pushing discs toward
road bikes.

Yes, we'll get a few testimonials here claiming discs are "better." We
get very few details on benefits vs. detriments.



For a while, the trend for road bikes was very narrow tyres pumped up to
very high pressure. 18 mm of tyre is pretty skinny.

Gradually the tyre width had become standard at 23 mm for road bikes.

Now there is an emerging trend to ride wider tyres, with some claiming
much wider tyres are not only as fast but faster! I suspect there is a
diminishing return with wind resistance.

Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the
wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre.
With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that. With a disc brake I don't
need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width. That's a benefit.

In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and
centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it
from centred. Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That
doesn't happen with discs.

It is possible with hydraulic disc callipers to squeeze the brake lever
while the wheel is out, and then have trouble moving the pads apart
again to insert the wheel. That's a detriment, but doesn't affect cable
actuated disc brake callipers.

Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc
callipers. Cable actuated disc callipers are not. Benefit and detriment.

Hydraulic disc systems sometimes need bleeding. This requires either a
visit to a shop or a bit more kit ($30 - $50) for the home maintenance
person. Detriment. Probably not good if you are out on a tour. Cables
are probably more reliable. Cable operated discs work fine, and there
are also cable/hydraulic systems, where the calliper is hydraulic and
self adjusting, and actuated via a cable.

Disc brake modulation is generally better. That is you can hold the
point of not quite skidding more easily. Benefit.

Disc brakes tend to work better in wet weather, or IOW, work the same
regardless of wet weather. Rim brakes rarely work as well when the rims
are wet.

Rim brakes on carbon fibre rims has never been a happy marriage, but
with disc brakes that problem is eliminated. Thus aerodynamic, strong,
stiff, light weight rims are now easier to manufacture and use - made of
carbon fibre.

Rim brakes do erode rims. Disc brakes do not. I guess the disc rotor
will wear out, but I'd rather replace a rotor than a rim.

It seems to me that many people try disc brakes and find few drawbacks.
That's just my opinion, unsubstantiated by statistics.

Are rim brakes good enough? Sure! They have been for a long time. Are
disc brakes better? Yes I think so. Not outstandingly, but better.
I'm not about to have my road bike modified to take disc brakes, and I
wouldn't let the choice of brakes on a new bike dictate what I bought.
YMMV.


And, of course, a disc brake is heavier than a rim brake :-)


And rim brake callipers that go around fat tyres often flex a lot and
don't work so well. So disc brakes for fat tyre bikes are a better
choice, and rim brakes for racing bikes with skinny tyres are pretty good.

--
JS
  #135  
Old March 15th 19, 04:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 15:24:05 +1100, James
wrote:

On 15/3/19 1:50 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:36:42 +1100, James
wrote:

On 15/3/19 2:17 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote:

How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in
the stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against
the steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a
technology.

Bikes didn't skip drum brake technology because bikes are primitive.
Only a very few bikes adopted drum brakes because that technology wasn't
optimum for bikes.

It's simplistic at best to pretend what's best for one application is
best for all applications. Every design choice comes with benefits and
detriments, and those are not the same for a 4000 pound car as for a 20
pound bike.

Bicycle rim brakes have worked fine for over 99.999% users for the past
100+ years. When mountain bikes came into fashion, some off-roaders
found a different set of benefits vs. detriments, and discs made sense
for them. But then fashion and marketing took over, pushing discs toward
road bikes.

Yes, we'll get a few testimonials here claiming discs are "better." We
get very few details on benefits vs. detriments.



For a while, the trend for road bikes was very narrow tyres pumped up to
very high pressure. 18 mm of tyre is pretty skinny.

Gradually the tyre width had become standard at 23 mm for road bikes.

Now there is an emerging trend to ride wider tyres, with some claiming
much wider tyres are not only as fast but faster! I suspect there is a
diminishing return with wind resistance.

Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the
wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre.
With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that. With a disc brake I don't
need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width. That's a benefit.

In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and
centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it
from centred. Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That
doesn't happen with discs.

It is possible with hydraulic disc callipers to squeeze the brake lever
while the wheel is out, and then have trouble moving the pads apart
again to insert the wheel. That's a detriment, but doesn't affect cable
actuated disc brake callipers.

Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc
callipers. Cable actuated disc callipers are not. Benefit and detriment.

Hydraulic disc systems sometimes need bleeding. This requires either a
visit to a shop or a bit more kit ($30 - $50) for the home maintenance
person. Detriment. Probably not good if you are out on a tour. Cables
are probably more reliable. Cable operated discs work fine, and there
are also cable/hydraulic systems, where the calliper is hydraulic and
self adjusting, and actuated via a cable.

Disc brake modulation is generally better. That is you can hold the
point of not quite skidding more easily. Benefit.

Disc brakes tend to work better in wet weather, or IOW, work the same
regardless of wet weather. Rim brakes rarely work as well when the rims
are wet.

Rim brakes on carbon fibre rims has never been a happy marriage, but
with disc brakes that problem is eliminated. Thus aerodynamic, strong,
stiff, light weight rims are now easier to manufacture and use - made of
carbon fibre.

Rim brakes do erode rims. Disc brakes do not. I guess the disc rotor
will wear out, but I'd rather replace a rotor than a rim.

It seems to me that many people try disc brakes and find few drawbacks.
That's just my opinion, unsubstantiated by statistics.

Are rim brakes good enough? Sure! They have been for a long time. Are
disc brakes better? Yes I think so. Not outstandingly, but better.
I'm not about to have my road bike modified to take disc brakes, and I
wouldn't let the choice of brakes on a new bike dictate what I bought.
YMMV.


And, of course, a disc brake is heavier than a rim brake :-)


And rim brake callipers that go around fat tyres often flex a lot and
don't work so well. So disc brakes for fat tyre bikes are a better
choice, and rim brakes for racing bikes with skinny tyres are pretty good.


Don't use calipers. Try cantilever or the more modern Shimano
V-brakes. They don't care how wide the tire is.

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #136  
Old March 15th 19, 06:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 11:57:26 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 15:24:05 +1100, James
wrote:

On 15/3/19 1:50 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:36:42 +1100, James
wrote:

On 15/3/19 2:17 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote:

How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in
the stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against
the steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a
technology.

Bikes didn't skip drum brake technology because bikes are primitive.
Only a very few bikes adopted drum brakes because that technology wasn't
optimum for bikes.

It's simplistic at best to pretend what's best for one application is
best for all applications. Every design choice comes with benefits and
detriments, and those are not the same for a 4000 pound car as for a 20
pound bike.

Bicycle rim brakes have worked fine for over 99.999% users for the past
100+ years. When mountain bikes came into fashion, some off-roaders
found a different set of benefits vs. detriments, and discs made sense
for them. But then fashion and marketing took over, pushing discs toward
road bikes.

Yes, we'll get a few testimonials here claiming discs are "better." We
get very few details on benefits vs. detriments.



For a while, the trend for road bikes was very narrow tyres pumped up to
very high pressure. 18 mm of tyre is pretty skinny.

Gradually the tyre width had become standard at 23 mm for road bikes.

Now there is an emerging trend to ride wider tyres, with some claiming
much wider tyres are not only as fast but faster! I suspect there is a
diminishing return with wind resistance.

Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the
wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre.
With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that. With a disc brake I don't
need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width. That's a benefit.

In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and
centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it
from centred. Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That
doesn't happen with discs.

It is possible with hydraulic disc callipers to squeeze the brake lever
while the wheel is out, and then have trouble moving the pads apart
again to insert the wheel. That's a detriment, but doesn't affect cable
actuated disc brake callipers.

Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc
callipers. Cable actuated disc callipers are not. Benefit and detriment.

Hydraulic disc systems sometimes need bleeding. This requires either a
visit to a shop or a bit more kit ($30 - $50) for the home maintenance
person. Detriment. Probably not good if you are out on a tour. Cables
are probably more reliable. Cable operated discs work fine, and there
are also cable/hydraulic systems, where the calliper is hydraulic and
self adjusting, and actuated via a cable.

Disc brake modulation is generally better. That is you can hold the
point of not quite skidding more easily. Benefit.

Disc brakes tend to work better in wet weather, or IOW, work the same
regardless of wet weather. Rim brakes rarely work as well when the rims
are wet.

Rim brakes on carbon fibre rims has never been a happy marriage, but
with disc brakes that problem is eliminated. Thus aerodynamic, strong,
stiff, light weight rims are now easier to manufacture and use - made of
carbon fibre.

Rim brakes do erode rims. Disc brakes do not. I guess the disc rotor
will wear out, but I'd rather replace a rotor than a rim.

It seems to me that many people try disc brakes and find few drawbacks.
That's just my opinion, unsubstantiated by statistics.

Are rim brakes good enough? Sure! They have been for a long time. Are
disc brakes better? Yes I think so. Not outstandingly, but better.
I'm not about to have my road bike modified to take disc brakes, and I
wouldn't let the choice of brakes on a new bike dictate what I bought.
YMMV.

And, of course, a disc brake is heavier than a rim brake :-)


And rim brake callipers that go around fat tyres often flex a lot and
don't work so well. So disc brakes for fat tyre bikes are a better
choice, and rim brakes for racing bikes with skinny tyres are pretty good.


Don't use calipers. Try cantilever or the more modern Shimano
V-brakes. They don't care how wide the tire is.


As an addendum: While cheaper they do look a bit low budget so, as one
might say, who would one want a $10 brake on a $3,000 bicycle... even
if they do stop well :-)

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #137  
Old March 15th 19, 06:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,932
Default The death of rim brakes?

On 15/3/19 5:01 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 11:57:26 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 15:24:05 +1100, James
wrote:

On 15/3/19 1:50 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:36:42 +1100, James
wrote:

On 15/3/19 2:17 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote:

How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in
the stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against
the steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a
technology.

Bikes didn't skip drum brake technology because bikes are primitive.
Only a very few bikes adopted drum brakes because that technology wasn't
optimum for bikes.

It's simplistic at best to pretend what's best for one application is
best for all applications. Every design choice comes with benefits and
detriments, and those are not the same for a 4000 pound car as for a 20
pound bike.

Bicycle rim brakes have worked fine for over 99.999% users for the past
100+ years. When mountain bikes came into fashion, some off-roaders
found a different set of benefits vs. detriments, and discs made sense
for them. But then fashion and marketing took over, pushing discs toward
road bikes.

Yes, we'll get a few testimonials here claiming discs are "better." We
get very few details on benefits vs. detriments.



For a while, the trend for road bikes was very narrow tyres pumped up to
very high pressure. 18 mm of tyre is pretty skinny.

Gradually the tyre width had become standard at 23 mm for road bikes.

Now there is an emerging trend to ride wider tyres, with some claiming
much wider tyres are not only as fast but faster! I suspect there is a
diminishing return with wind resistance.

Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the
wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre.
With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that. With a disc brake I don't
need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width. That's a benefit.

In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and
centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it
from centred. Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That
doesn't happen with discs.

It is possible with hydraulic disc callipers to squeeze the brake lever
while the wheel is out, and then have trouble moving the pads apart
again to insert the wheel. That's a detriment, but doesn't affect cable
actuated disc brake callipers.

Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc
callipers. Cable actuated disc callipers are not. Benefit and detriment.

Hydraulic disc systems sometimes need bleeding. This requires either a
visit to a shop or a bit more kit ($30 - $50) for the home maintenance
person. Detriment. Probably not good if you are out on a tour. Cables
are probably more reliable. Cable operated discs work fine, and there
are also cable/hydraulic systems, where the calliper is hydraulic and
self adjusting, and actuated via a cable.

Disc brake modulation is generally better. That is you can hold the
point of not quite skidding more easily. Benefit.

Disc brakes tend to work better in wet weather, or IOW, work the same
regardless of wet weather. Rim brakes rarely work as well when the rims
are wet.

Rim brakes on carbon fibre rims has never been a happy marriage, but
with disc brakes that problem is eliminated. Thus aerodynamic, strong,
stiff, light weight rims are now easier to manufacture and use - made of
carbon fibre.

Rim brakes do erode rims. Disc brakes do not. I guess the disc rotor
will wear out, but I'd rather replace a rotor than a rim.

It seems to me that many people try disc brakes and find few drawbacks.
That's just my opinion, unsubstantiated by statistics.

Are rim brakes good enough? Sure! They have been for a long time. Are
disc brakes better? Yes I think so. Not outstandingly, but better.
I'm not about to have my road bike modified to take disc brakes, and I
wouldn't let the choice of brakes on a new bike dictate what I bought.
YMMV.

And, of course, a disc brake is heavier than a rim brake :-)


And rim brake callipers that go around fat tyres often flex a lot and
don't work so well. So disc brakes for fat tyre bikes are a better
choice, and rim brakes for racing bikes with skinny tyres are pretty good.


Don't use calipers. Try cantilever or the more modern Shimano
V-brakes. They don't care how wide the tire is.


As an addendum: While cheaper they do look a bit low budget so, as one
might say, who would one want a $10 brake on a $3,000 bicycle... even
if they do stop well :-)


I've had canti brakes on a MTB. Yes the rims took a hammering.

--
JS
  #138  
Old March 15th 19, 09:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 68
Default The death of rim brakes?

Am 15.03.2019 um 02:36 schrieb James:

Are rim brakes good enough?¬* Sure!¬* They have been for a long time.¬* Are
disc brakes better?¬* Yes I think so.


Two facts pointing to the other direction:

Rim brakes are lighter than dics brakes.
Rim brakes dissipate heat better than disc brakes (but dics brakes
dissipate heat better than drum brakes).

For lightness, you might want small, thin discs, for heat stability you
want the opposite. Discs that are too small or too thin can heat up so
strong that they warp.
  #139  
Old March 15th 19, 01:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 344
Default The death of rim brakes?

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 15:24:05 +1100, James
wrote:

On 15/3/19 1:50 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 12:36:42 +1100, James
wrote:

On 15/3/19 2:17 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote:

How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in
the stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against
the steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a
technology.

Bikes didn't skip drum brake technology because bikes are primitive.
Only a very few bikes adopted drum brakes because that technology wasn't
optimum for bikes.

It's simplistic at best to pretend what's best for one application is
best for all applications. Every design choice comes with benefits and
detriments, and those are not the same for a 4000 pound car as for a 20
pound bike.

Bicycle rim brakes have worked fine for over 99.999% users for the past
100+ years. When mountain bikes came into fashion, some off-roaders
found a different set of benefits vs. detriments, and discs made sense
for them. But then fashion and marketing took over, pushing discs toward
road bikes.

Yes, we'll get a few testimonials here claiming discs are "better." We
get very few details on benefits vs. detriments.



For a while, the trend for road bikes was very narrow tyres pumped up to
very high pressure. 18 mm of tyre is pretty skinny.

Gradually the tyre width had become standard at 23 mm for road bikes.

Now there is an emerging trend to ride wider tyres, with some claiming
much wider tyres are not only as fast but faster! I suspect there is a
diminishing return with wind resistance.

Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the
wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre.
With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that. With a disc brake I don't
need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width. That's a benefit.

In fact sometimes when you go to shove a wheel in with rim brakes and
centre or dual pivot callipers, you can catch the calliper and move it
from centred. Then you have to fix that or have rubbing brakes. That
doesn't happen with discs.

It is possible with hydraulic disc callipers to squeeze the brake lever
while the wheel is out, and then have trouble moving the pads apart
again to insert the wheel. That's a detriment, but doesn't affect cable
actuated disc brake callipers.

Hydraulic disc callipers are self adjusting like car hydraulic disc
callipers. Cable actuated disc callipers are not. Benefit and detriment.

Hydraulic disc systems sometimes need bleeding. This requires either a
visit to a shop or a bit more kit ($30 - $50) for the home maintenance
person. Detriment. Probably not good if you are out on a tour. Cables
are probably more reliable. Cable operated discs work fine, and there
are also cable/hydraulic systems, where the calliper is hydraulic and
self adjusting, and actuated via a cable.

Disc brake modulation is generally better. That is you can hold the
point of not quite skidding more easily. Benefit.

Disc brakes tend to work better in wet weather, or IOW, work the same
regardless of wet weather. Rim brakes rarely work as well when the rims
are wet.

Rim brakes on carbon fibre rims has never been a happy marriage, but
with disc brakes that problem is eliminated. Thus aerodynamic, strong,
stiff, light weight rims are now easier to manufacture and use - made of
carbon fibre.

Rim brakes do erode rims. Disc brakes do not. I guess the disc rotor
will wear out, but I'd rather replace a rotor than a rim.

It seems to me that many people try disc brakes and find few drawbacks.
That's just my opinion, unsubstantiated by statistics.

Are rim brakes good enough? Sure! They have been for a long time. Are
disc brakes better? Yes I think so. Not outstandingly, but better.
I'm not about to have my road bike modified to take disc brakes, and I
wouldn't let the choice of brakes on a new bike dictate what I bought.
YMMV.

And, of course, a disc brake is heavier than a rim brake :-)


And rim brake callipers that go around fat tyres often flex a lot and
don't work so well. So disc brakes for fat tyre bikes are a better
choice, and rim brakes for racing bikes with skinny tyres are pretty good.


Don't use calipers. Try cantilever or the more modern Shimano
V-brakes. They don't care how wide the tire is.

--
Cheers,
John B.


With cantis and V-brakes, you may still have to disconnect the straddle
wire or deflate your tire to remove the wheel. And if the brake pads sit
inside the fork, they will limit how wide of a tire you can install, while
disc brakes won't.

  #140  
Old March 15th 19, 02:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default The death of rim brakes?

On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 6:36:52 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 15/3/19 2:17 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 11:13, AMuzi wrote:

How many new bicycles have drum brakes? Vanishingly few.


This was just meant as an example. Bicycles have largely remained in
the stone age, like chuck wagons where a chunk of wood pressed against
the steel ring of the wheels to brake. So bicycles kind of skipped a
technology.


Bikes didn't skip drum brake technology because bikes are primitive.
Only a very few bikes adopted drum brakes because that technology wasn't
optimum for bikes.

It's simplistic at best to pretend what's best for one application is
best for all applications. Every design choice comes with benefits and
detriments, and those are not the same for a 4000 pound car as for a 20
pound bike.

Bicycle rim brakes have worked fine for over 99.999% users for the past
100+ years. When mountain bikes came into fashion, some off-roaders
found a different set of benefits vs. detriments, and discs made sense
for them. But then fashion and marketing took over, pushing discs toward
road bikes.

Yes, we'll get a few testimonials here claiming discs are "better." We
get very few details on benefits vs. detriments.



For a while, the trend for road bikes was very narrow tyres pumped up to
very high pressure. 18 mm of tyre is pretty skinny.

Gradually the tyre width had become standard at 23 mm for road bikes.

Now there is an emerging trend to ride wider tyres, with some claiming
much wider tyres are not only as fast but faster! I suspect there is a
diminishing return with wind resistance.

Now I use a 25 mm rear tyre (that measures 27 mm), and to remove the
wheel I must release the brake lever (Campagnolo) or deflate the tyre.
With a 23 mm tyre I don't need to do that. With a disc brake I don't
need to fiddle with the brakes regardless of tyre width. That's a benefit.

 




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