Correct Top Tube vs. Correct Frame Size

In article ,
Jasper Janssen wrote:

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 18:08:20 GMT, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

Note again that all this references the _worst_ case scenario for a
threadless setup: a close-cut fork with no spacers. Given a long enough
uncut fork, a creative person could get a threadless stem up to whatever
ridiculous height struck their fancy.

Well, yes, but my point was that with threaded, you only need an
outlandish quill, if you ever need to change the bar positioning in
whatever weird way. That's *MUCH* freakin' easier than getting a new rigid
fork with a very long uncut steerer, and for suspension forks it's pretty
much a financial impossibility altogether.

That's fine, as far as it goes, but it has to be weighed against the
advantages of threadless stems, which are lower weight, a stronger
joint, and no rust-seized quills. The strength issue became critical,
according to Jobst, once mountain bike riders started overloading quill
stems with a certain regularity. That's why those bikes adopted quill
stems and 1-1/8" stems before road bikes.

Against that, we have to balance the fact that, well, it's _possible_ to
get a threadless steerer that is cut too short for comfort, but this is
essentially an error in bike setup, or at worst a limitation in
re-fitting a bike later (usually, in my guess, as a result of selling
it).

And you know, if you really need a special quill stem to get your bike
set up, it will work on certain threadless bikes:

http://sheldonbrown.org/thorn/index.html

....without even removing the old stem.

And that's it. With the introduction of Sheldon's Thorn Raven
dual-handlebar bike, I believe I have decisively won. Thanks, see you
next thread .

Share & Enjoy,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:19:05 -0700, Mark Hickey
wrote:

As much as it pains me to disagree with JT, my road bike bars have
always been more than 4" below the saddle as well. It's not THAT
unusual.

Though I don't doubt your bars are that low, I'm curious: how much
time, or how often, do you ride in the drops?

Email address works as is.

Patrick Lamb wrote:

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:19:05 -0700, Mark Hickey
wrote:

As much as it pains me to disagree with JT, my road bike bars have
always been more than 4" below the saddle as well. It's not THAT
unusual.

Though I don't doubt your bars are that low, I'm curious: how much
time, or how often, do you ride in the drops?

Quite a lot, actually. I'm very comfortable up in the ergo hooks for
long, long periods of time.

.... or was, at least. I've been riding an MTB primarily since a
fairly significant cycling accident a couple years ago that caused
some lingering upper back issues. I've "graduated" to a 'cross bike
now as a stepping stone to getting back to riding my road bike for
long periods. I set up my tandem with the bars "high" (by my
standards at least), with a drop of a little over 3" (7.7cm).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Per Mark Hickey:
Though I don't doubt your bars are that low, I'm curious: how much
time, or how often, do you ride in the drops?

Quite a lot, actually. I'm very comfortable up in the ergo hooks for
long, long periods of time.

I wonder if there could be a body proportion issue in bar height.

Some months ago, I went face-to-face with a guy about my size (6'4") who was
riding an MTB whose bars must've been six inches lower than the saddle.

I run mine at saddle height or even an inch above - depending on how the diff is
measured.

Only had a couple seconds to assess the situation, but it was clear that he was
having no problem looking from side-to-side and his neck didn't look contorted.

When I run my bars even 3" below saddle height, the first thing I notice is that
I can't see much of anything except straight ahead - and to do that, I have to
crane my neck to the max and I'm *still" partially peering over the tops of my
glasses.

Maybe arm/trunk length is a factor?
--
PeteCresswell

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per Mark Hickey:
Though I don't doubt your bars are that low, I'm curious: how much
time, or how often, do you ride in the drops?

Quite a lot, actually. I'm very comfortable up in the ergo hooks for
long, long periods of time.

I wonder if there could be a body proportion issue in bar height.

Some months ago, I went face-to-face with a guy about my size (6'4") who was
riding an MTB whose bars must've been six inches lower than the saddle.

I run mine at saddle height or even an inch above - depending on how the diff is
measured.

Only had a couple seconds to assess the situation, but it was clear that he was
having no problem looking from side-to-side and his neck didn't look contorted.

When I run my bars even 3" below saddle height, the first thing I notice is that
I can't see much of anything except straight ahead - and to do that, I have to
crane my neck to the max and I'm *still" partially peering over the tops of my
glasses.

Maybe arm/trunk length is a factor?

I've always figured it has more to do with flexibility in the neck and
shoulders, and curvature of the spine. Arm length is certainly an
issue as well - if someone's arms are longer than average (and mine
are somewhat), the difference can be translated into lower bar
position without any more discomfort than someone with shorter arms
and higher bars.

An awful lot of it has to do with time on the bike, too. I often find
that people will start out with a higher bar position, and will
gravitate toward lower bars as they ride more and more miles.
Eventually they become old farts and generally start raising the bars
again. Probably looks like a bathtub curve if you were to plot it.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:27:04 -0700, Mark Hickey wrote:

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per Mark Hickey:
Though I don't doubt your bars are that low, I'm curious: how much
time, or how often, do you ride in the drops?

Quite a lot, actually. I'm very comfortable up in the ergo hooks for
long, long periods of time.

I wonder if there could be a body proportion issue in bar height.

Some months ago, I went face-to-face with a guy about my size (6'4")
who was
riding an MTB whose bars must've been six inches lower than the saddle.

I run mine at saddle height or even an inch above - depending on how
the diff is
measured.

Only had a couple seconds to assess the situation, but it was clear
that he was
having no problem looking from side-to-side and his neck didn't look
contorted.

When I run my bars even 3" below saddle height, the first thing I
notice is that
I can't see much of anything except straight ahead - and to do that, I
have to
crane my neck to the max and I'm *still" partially peering over the
tops of my
glasses.

Maybe arm/trunk length is a factor?

I've always figured it has more to do with flexibility in the neck and
shoulders, and curvature of the spine. Arm length is certainly an
issue as well - if someone's arms are longer than average (and mine
are somewhat), the difference can be translated into lower bar
position without any more discomfort than someone with shorter arms
and higher bars.

An awful lot of it has to do with time on the bike, too. I often find
that people will start out with a higher bar position, and will
gravitate toward lower bars as they ride more and more miles.
Eventually they become old farts and generally start raising the bars
again. Probably looks like a bathtub curve if you were to plot it.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

I definitely used to have a much lower position when I was in my 20s than
now, in my 40s (though this year, I'm riding the most I've ever ridden).

--
Bob in CT