Ultegra shifter problem

while checking the tightness of the screw in my shifter a few days i was not sure if i ever posted a response and sure enough i did not. i wanted to post this just in case someone else needs to find a replacement screw.

since i worked near a bunch of mechanical engineers they came up (using the screw from the other shifter) with the size being an M4 which is a metric 4mm size as far as the thread diameter. i think the original length of the screw (just the thread part) was 7mm according to my notes. i was able to get some M4 screws from a model shop in the building with a 6mm length (hex head) or 8mm (phillips head). i ended up using the hex head with an allen wrench as that allowed easy accessibility from under the brake hood. if you use the phillips head the levers are in the way when using a screwdriver.

john wrote:

You need some more information here. Normally a M4 bolt can have one
of two thread pitches, either .70 mm or .35 mm so the specification
really needs to be something like M4 - .7 or M4 - .35.

sorry, don't know what the pitch is. the mechanical engineers and the
guy in the model shop looked at the screw in the good shifter and basically
said that it was metric and 4mm. they never mentioned the pitch nor did
i ask. however, if someone runs into this problem with the ultegra 6500
they at least have a starting point that it is an M4. :-) :-)

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:26:57 -0700 (PDT), gary
wrote:

john wrote:

You need some more information here. Normally a M4 bolt can have one
of two thread pitches, either .70 mm or .35 mm so the specification
really needs to be something like M4 - .7 or M4 - .35.
sorry, don't know what the pitch is. the mechanical engineers and the
guy in the model shop looked at the screw in the good shifter and basically
said that it was metric and 4mm. they never mentioned the pitch nor did
i ask. however, if someone runs into this problem with the ultegra 6500
they at least have a starting point that it is an M4. :-) :-)


I think you also sent me an e-mail but for the listening public -
threaded fittings require at lest two specifications to describe the
fitting - the O.D. of the male fitting and the pitch of the threads.
Imperial denominated fittings will use a number such as 1/2 - 13,
i.e., 1/2 inch in diameter and 13 threads per inch. A Metric
specification will be something like M4 -.7, i.e.,(M=metric) 4 mm
diameter and 0.7mm distance for one thread to the next.

Note: Imperial sizes also include number sized fasteners such as 10 -
32, a #10 screw with 32 TPI.


That's an SAE spec.
Imperial would be 5/32- 32 WW

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sep 9, 3:23*am, Phil W Lee wrote:
gary considered Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:26:57 -0700
(PDT) the perfect time to write:

john wrote:

You need some more information here. Normally a M4 bolt can have one
of two thread pitches, either .70 mm or .35 mm so the specification
really needs to be something like M4 - .7 or M4 - .35.

sorry, don't know what the pitch is. *the mechanical engineers and the
guy in the model shop looked at the screw in the good shifter and basically
said that it was metric and 4mm. *they never mentioned the pitch nor did
i ask. *however, if someone runs into this problem with the ultegra 6500
they at least have a starting point that it is an M4. *:-) :-)

If it isn't specified as fine thread, it will be coarse.

So it's not suitable for Sunday best.

So that'll be 4.0 x 0.7mm.

AMuzi wrote:
:John B. wrote:
: On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:26:57 -0700 (PDT), gary
: wrote:
:
: john wrote:
:
: You need some more information here. Normally a M4 bolt can have one
: of two thread pitches, either .70 mm or .35 mm so the specification
: really needs to be something like M4 - .7 or M4 - .35.
: sorry, don't know what the pitch is. the mechanical engineers and the
: guy in the model shop looked at the screw in the good shifter and basically
: said that it was metric and 4mm. they never mentioned the pitch nor did
: i ask. however, if someone runs into this problem with the ultegra 6500
: they at least have a starting point that it is an M4. :-) :-)
:
:
: I think you also sent me an e-mail but for the listening public -
: threaded fittings require at lest two specifications to describe the
: fitting - the O.D. of the male fitting and the pitch of the threads.
: Imperial denominated fittings will use a number such as 1/2 - 13,
: i.e., 1/2 inch in diameter and 13 threads per inch. A Metric
: specification will be something like M4 -.7, i.e.,(M=metric) 4 mm
: diameter and 0.7mm distance for one thread to the next.
:
: Note: Imperial sizes also include number sized fasteners such as 10 -
: 32, a #10 screw with 32 TPI.
:

:That's an SAE spec.
:Imperial would be 5/32- 32 WW

**** that. 3 BA for the win.

--
sig 25

Phil W Lee wrote:

The normal thread is the coarse thread.
The fine thread is the exceptional case, and will always be specified
as such.
And fine thread in a size that small is sufficiently rare that it
doesn't even appear in my Zeus book - it only includes them down to 8
x 1 mm (vs 8 x 1.25 for coarse).

What exactly is a Zeus book? Is it something like the American
_Machinery's Handbook_?

http://industrialpress.com/products/category_feature/MH


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski wrote:
Phil W Lee wrote:

The normal thread is the coarse thread.
The fine thread is the exceptional case, and will always be specified
as such.
And fine thread in a size that small is sufficiently rare that it
doesn't even appear in my Zeus book - it only includes them down to 8
x 1 mm (vs 8 x 1.25 for coarse).

What exactly is a Zeus book? Is it something like the American
_Machinery's Handbook_?

http://industrialpress.com/products/category_feature/MH



Somewhere inbetween that and a tap drill chart. Smaller and
British:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/zeus-refe...ook-prod20633/

Machinery's Handbook is a compendium, and a valuable
reference work. Mine is well used and much appreciated but
it won't fit readily in a pocket.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sep 10, 12:59*pm, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 16:58:38 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:



John B. considered Fri, 09 Sep 2011 21:20:49
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 03:23:21 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

gary considered Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:26:57 -0700
(PDT) the perfect time to write:

john wrote:

You need some more information here. Normally a M4 bolt can have one
of two thread pitches, either .70 mm or .35 mm so the specification
really needs to be something like M4 - .7 or M4 - .35.

sorry, don't know what the pitch is. *the mechanical engineers and the
guy in the model shop looked at the screw in the good shifter and basically
said that it was metric and 4mm. *they never mentioned the pitch nor did
i ask. *however, if someone runs into this problem with the ultegra 6500
they at least have a starting point that it is an M4. *:-) :-)

If it isn't specified as fine thread, it will be coarse.
So that'll be 4.0 x 0.7mm.

Well, yes, or perhaps if it isn't specified as coarse thread it will
be fine :-)

No.
The normal thread is the coarse thread.
The fine thread is the exceptional case, and will always be specified
as such.
And fine thread in a size that small is sufficiently rare that it
doesn't even appear in my Zeus book - it only includes them down to 8
x 1 mm (vs 8 x 1.25 for coarse).

You obviously are not an engineer as there is no "normal" when it
comes to fasteners. No, "well because I want coarse thread I don't
need to specify as it is the norm".

To put it more in prospective, every shop drawing I have seen in some
60 years of looking at them has had both diameter and thread pitch,
and often fit, designated for every threaded fitting.

Your "Zeus Book" is obviously not complete as the "tap drill' charts
that I have call out both M4-.7 (the tap drill for which is 3.3mm) and
M4-.35(3.6mm tap drill) and, I might comment, fine thread metric
standards down to M4 (which was the reason for my original comments).

--
John B.

I believe it is part of the DIN standards which dictate that the
coarse threads are indicated by no marking.

John B. wrote:
On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 01:01:04 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

Frank Krygowski considered Sat, 10 Sep
2011 13:05:24 -0400 the perfect time to write:

Phil W Lee wrote:
The normal thread is the coarse thread.
The fine thread is the exceptional case, and will always be specified
as such.
And fine thread in a size that small is sufficiently rare that it
doesn't even appear in my Zeus book - it only includes them down to 8
x 1 mm (vs 8 x 1.25 for coarse).
What exactly is a Zeus book? Is it something like the American
_Machinery's Handbook_?

http://industrialpress.com/products/category_feature/MH
Zeus book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Precision-Re.../dp/B0000CLZUO

The full title is "Zeus precision data charts and reference tables for
drawing office, toolroom & workshop".

It is, and has been for many decades, the first (and often the only
necessary) reference for anyone in the UK who intends to perform any
metalworking.

It is very concise, containing only the things you will actually need,
and is therefore compact, fitting in an overall pocket.
For at least the last 30 years it has been laminated, so you can refer
to it while working without trashing it.

The cover is black/yellow/white so you can find it easily on a
cluttered workbench.

Perfectly designed for the job.

God (or Zeus!) alone knows when it was first published, but I
inherited my first (unlaminated and rather dog-eared) copy from my
father (a chartered engineer) who regarded it as an essential workshop
tool, and told me that he'd had one since before the first time he
laid hands on any machine tool - it was on the required book list even
then for school metalworking (as it was for me, in the 1970s).
It was (ttbomk) in 1980 that it was updated to include metric tables
and measurements, after the publisher spun it off into it's own
company based in Jersey, CI.

It's possible that more recent revisions have expanded the metric
section at the expense of older standards (Whitworth, BSP, etc).
Mine is 1980, and pretty battered, although still perfectly legible
(although for some reason the text seems to be getting smaller these
days).
My eldest should be needing one for school soon, if they still do any
"hands on" metalwork, in which case I'll find out if there's any
benefit in updating

Out of curiosity, how much does a current copy cost? I ask because the
Machinery's Handbook, the machinist's bible here in the U.S., is round
about $100 a copy; on sale.


Or not:
http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?ke....y=0&hs=Submit

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sep 11, 1:06*pm, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 20:39:01 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six



wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:59*pm, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 16:58:38 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

John B. considered Fri, 09 Sep 2011 21:20:49
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 03:23:21 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

gary considered Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:26:57 -0700
(PDT) the perfect time to write:

john wrote:

You need some more information here. Normally a M4 bolt can have one
of two thread pitches, either .70 mm or .35 mm so the specification
really needs to be something like M4 - .7 or M4 - .35.

sorry, don't know what the pitch is. *the mechanical engineers and the
guy in the model shop looked at the screw in the good shifter and basically
said that it was metric and 4mm. *they never mentioned the pitch nor did
i ask. *however, if someone runs into this problem with the ultegra 6500
they at least have a starting point that it is an M4. *:-) :-)

If it isn't specified as fine thread, it will be coarse.
So that'll be 4.0 x 0.7mm.

Well, yes, or perhaps if it isn't specified as coarse thread it will
be fine :-)

No.
The normal thread is the coarse thread.
The fine thread is the exceptional case, and will always be specified
as such.
And fine thread in a size that small is sufficiently rare that it
doesn't even appear in my Zeus book - it only includes them down to 8
x 1 mm (vs 8 x 1.25 for coarse).

You obviously are not an engineer as there is no "normal" when it
comes to fasteners. No, "well because I want coarse thread I don't
need to specify as it is the norm".

To put it more in prospective, every shop drawing I have seen in some
60 years of looking at them has had both diameter and thread pitch,
and often fit, designated for every threaded fitting.

Your "Zeus Book" is obviously not complete as the "tap drill' charts
that I have call out both M4-.7 (the tap drill for which is 3.3mm) and
M4-.35(3.6mm tap drill) and, I might comment, fine thread metric
standards down to M4 (which was the reason for my original comments).

--
John B.

I believe it is part of the DIN standards which dictate that the
coarse threads are indicated by no marking.

Strangely, most of the world does not follow DIN standards :-)
--
John B.

Tough ****.