Black Friday Deals on Bicycle Lights

On 11/28/2016 11:09 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-11-28 10:36, sms wrote:
On 11/28/2016 7:59 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

1h is no problem. I found that USB re-charge is nice. My previous light
has re-chargeable Li-Ion the size of 18650 but the cap can be removed
and a USB plug shows up. Plugs into any contemporary computer and the
light ring on the battery turns from red to yellow when fully charged. I
always carried a spare though.

For the Lezyne it's best to use a higher current (2.1-2.4A) USB charger.
The USB ports on a computer are only guaranteed to put out 500mA, though
on most computers the over-current limit is set to 1000mA.


That sounds like people didn't pay attention during the design review,
hoping they held at least one. My hand would have gone up immediately.
In this day and age it should be no problem to provide some "secret"
button-press sequence that switches the charge current from 2A to 400mA
or so and keeps it latched there until further notice. Usually that's a
no-cost feature except for a few engineering hours or NRE.

Not at all. The USB spec has a minimum charge current as well as a maximum.

USB-C can go up to 5A, hence the new Macbook Pro being charged via USB-C.

There are UL/CSA/TUV reasons for limiting the current. The old AT and
ATX keyboard/mouse ports had a 500mA Picofuse.

Your wife would have to get two chargers or always schlepp the one back
and forth.

I also can't imagine repeated 2A charging being very healthy for a
Li-Ion cell of 18650 or similar size.

Perfectly acceptable to charge a 2800mAH 18650 at 0.7C rate which would
be a little less than 2A. Some custom charging systems, like on a Tesla,
charge the 18650s at a much higher rate on a Supercharger, but they have
some kind of an active cooling system, and they're using 3400mAH 18650
cells in at least some of their packs.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 2016-11-28 11:21, sms wrote:
On 11/28/2016 11:09 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-11-28 10:36, sms wrote:
On 11/28/2016 7:59 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

1h is no problem. I found that USB re-charge is nice. My previous light
has re-chargeable Li-Ion the size of 18650 but the cap can be removed
and a USB plug shows up. Plugs into any contemporary computer and the
light ring on the battery turns from red to yellow when fully
charged. I
always carried a spare though.

For the Lezyne it's best to use a higher current (2.1-2.4A) USB charger.
The USB ports on a computer are only guaranteed to put out 500mA, though
on most computers the over-current limit is set to 1000mA.


That sounds like people didn't pay attention during the design review,
hoping they held at least one. My hand would have gone up immediately.
In this day and age it should be no problem to provide some "secret"
button-press sequence that switches the charge current from 2A to 400mA
or so and keeps it latched there until further notice. Usually that's a
no-cost feature except for a few engineering hours or NRE.

Not at all. The USB spec has a minimum charge current as well as a maximum.

USB-C can go up to 5A, hence the new Macbook Pro being charged via USB-C.

There are UL/CSA/TUV reasons for limiting the current. The old AT and
ATX keyboard/mouse ports had a 500mA Picofuse.


The latter is just the point. I've seen cases where a supposedly
resettable thermo-fuse (probably not Pico) has decided to come on for
good, leaving a small patch of "scorched earth" on the circuit board and
an amperage smell wafted through the air.

In other case there was just a little PHUT sound and from then on that
USB port no longer worked.

When I design circuitry like this I never use anything thermal. It's
always a real electronic solution for current limiting.


Your wife would have to get two chargers or always schlepp the one back
and forth.

I also can't imagine repeated 2A charging being very healthy for a
Li-Ion cell of 18650 or similar size.

Perfectly acceptable to charge a 2800mAH 18650 at 0.7C rate which would
be a little less than 2A.


Aceptable from a safety point of view, yes. Battery life? Not so much:

http://powerelectronics.com/portable...ttery-life.pdf

Quote "Avoid high charge and discharge currents. High charge and
discharge currents reduce cycle life. Some chemistries are more suited
for higher currents such as Li-ion manganese and Li-ion phosphate. High
currents place excessive stress on the battery".

Heat is the enemy of most rechargeable batteries. Fast chargers employ
cooling or at least temperature sensing.


... Some custom charging systems, like on a Tesla,
charge the 18650s at a much higher rate on a Supercharger, but they have
some kind of an active cooling system, and they're using 3400mAH 18650
cells in at least some of their packs.


That is a well dialed-in system with cooling and whatnot. Very different
ballgame.

I am using slow-charge on my old cell phone and after about 10 years it
is still on the first battery and no discernible loss in uptime per
charge. Same on the bicycle batteries which are 4400mAh on the MTB and
8800mAh on the road bike (will be swapped soon). Those get charge at
about 1A. If I'd be a bicycle messenger I'd have a souped-up hub dynamo
for charging. SEPIC switcher and maybe an MPPT algorithm, plus probably
a downhill switch.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 10:52:38 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/28/2016 10:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Incidentally, I gave up on battery powered soldering irons long ago.
They don't get hot enough for what I normally solder.

I had the Wahl Isotip. But with lead-free solder you need a hotter iron.

This Dremel butane model is pretty good:
http://www.frys.com/product/8871752.

I have a similar model that I use when soldering on top of a radio
tower. The slightest breeze instantly cools the tip. Butane works
nicely, as long as the copper tip is reasonably massive.

Also, I've done
a few Makita cordless drill conversions from NiCd/NiMH to LiIon
batteries. The battery packs are small enough to fit inside the
battery compartment (with foam spacers). The LiIon battery is charged
externally, using an RC style balance charger. 18v systems works best
because that's exactly 5 LiIon cells. 12v is a problem, but works
acceptably with 4 cells (14.4v).

Li-Ion is supposed to be charged with 4.2V per cell to charge to 3.7V
per cell. We have a device at work with 3 cells and a 12V charger works,
but I can't imagine doing 4 cells with a 12V charger.

Lithium-ion almost immediately drops in voltage after the initial
charge. It starts at 4.2v and is down to about 3.9v fairly quickly.
It then spends most of its life between 3.9v and 3.6v. 4 cells at
3.9v = 15.6v. This is well above the nominal battery voltage for NiCd
or NiMh. However, the Makita drill motors seem to handle it nicely
and I like the extra power. The drills would have ended up as eWaste
because of the high cost of replacement batteries and the tendency for
the stock chargers to kill batteries.

I currently considering a 9.6v Makita battery upgrade. I'm undecided
if I should go with 2 cells (7.2v) or 3 cells (10.8v). Probably the
higher voltage.

Also, I don't use the stock Makita charger with my replacement LiIon
battery packs. I use XT60 RC power connectors, 4S balance charger
connector, to an iMax B6 balance charger:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/imax-b6-50w-5a-charger-discharger-1-6-cells-genuine.html
A pull string allows the battery to be easily removed and replaced
with a charged battery. I'm a little worried about shorts as I'm
using unprotected cells and do not have a BMS (battery managment
system).

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2016-11-27 21:20, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, November 27, 2016 at 9:52:34 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 17:52:27 -0800 (PST), DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH
wrote:

need James or Lieb explain if the proprietary battery is X more
effective in a designed for system or if this idea avoids the
obvious that the prop like most props yields more $$$

A non-removable battery solves a few problem and is most certainly
cheaper than a removable battery.

By making it non-removable, the following parts disappear: 1.
Battery holder with springs. You can use welded tab batteries. 2.
Tolerance space for odd side and swollen batteries. 3. Separation
between battery compartment and PCB (printed circuit board). 4.
Battery cover and chronically broken hinge and latch. 5. Inventory
of batteries as an "accessory". 6. Claims that the light doesn't
meet runtime specs because someone crammed in a low quality
battery. 7. Protection circuitry for a battery inserted
backwards. 8. Battery ID chip inside battery case (for counterfeit
detection). 9. Battery short circuit protection and BMS (battery
managment system).

A non-removable battery also: 1. Allows for an internal charge
controller. 2. Allows for a smaller case. 3. Allows the use of
"flat" prismatic cells (similar to a smartphone) instead of
cylinderical 18650 type cells. 4. Allows the use of a coulomb
counter to act as a fuel gauge. 5. Whatever else I forgot.

My guess(tm) is that bicycle light manufacturers will follow the
lead of cell phone makers and tie their warranty to the life of
the battery. If the calculated life of the battery is perhaps 5
years, the manufacturer can safely offer a 3 year warranty and be
fairly certain that the battery will be mostly functional at the
end of the warranty period. This eliminates the need to replace
the battery during the warranty. After the warranty expires, the
manufacturer or vendor could care less. It's now eWaste. That's
the down side of a non-removable battery. The light could continue
to be used long past the end of the warranty period, but only if
the owner is willing to tear it apart and replace the battery.
But, if you're NOT willing to replace the non-removable battery,
you're buying what might be a limited life, throw-away product.

-- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060
http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS
831-336-2558

A non-removable battery can not be switiched out on a very long ride
in the dark. A non-removable light can lose a fair bit of charge when
it's very cold outside. An external b attery pack can be tuck up
under one's jacket to warm the battery and keep it runninh longer.
It's what I do in winter on lond rides in the dark.

Like everything, there are advantages and disadvantages that need to
be considered for each person's needs or wants.


IMO the best is what (as usual ...) the motor vehicle industry offers
since, oh, 100 years or so. Lights plus central battery. This is what I
have on both bicycles. What is still missing is a generator or dynamo
but the packs are plenty large to last even long rides in the dark. I
might add that to my road bike next time the front rim is up.

When using standard connectors it would also be possible to swap out a
pack in case the ride was way longer than planned or the rider forgot to
turn off the lights at the destination.

The sad part is that those packs only come in some flimsy
velcro-fastened holders which flop about during rough ride, or ... fall
off. On the MTB I gave it a smash-proof enclosure in which it rides
fasted around rubber cushions. On the road bike it rides in the right
pannier but that needs to change. Why on earth they don't offer these as
a stack to be mounted inside the seat tube or fork tube I'll never
understand.

Tying a good rear light into the circuitry also requires some
home-brewing. As usual with bicycles.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Jeff Liebermann considered Mon, 28 Nov 2016
10:38:06 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:20:15 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A non-removable battery can not be switiched out
on a very long ride in the dark.

I beg to differ. The various "soft power switch" devices I've dealt
with, which lack a proper DC on/off switch, draw very little current
when off or in standby. Just about every laptop is like that, with
power being applied only to the switching circuitry and where the full
DC power does not go through the tiny on/off push button.

I think you've misunderstood - by "switched out" I believe Sir means
exchanged for a fully charged battery. If the battery is not
removable, you would have to either carry a spare light, or limit the
length of night rides to the battery duration.

A non-removable light can lose a fair bit of charge when it's
very cold outside.

You might be looking at it backwards. A LiIon battery has a very low
self discharge rate when cold, and looses more power when warm:
http://powerelectronics.com/mobile/designing-battery-packs-thermal-extremes
http://powerelectronics.com/site-files/powerelectronics.com/files/archive/powerelectronics.com/images/0606batterypacks-Figure04.jpg
Self discharge happens without any load, so a tiny amount of current
needed to run the on/off switch doesn't even show on the graphs.

What does happen is the battery looses capacity when cold:
http://images.slideplayer.com/16/4877973/slides/slide_13.jpg
When cold, the battery simply will not run the light as long as it
would if it were warm. Actually, that's not quite right because there
is no loss of available power. If you charge a battery at 25C, put it
in the cooler at 0C, raise it back to 25C, and then run a discharge
test, it will show the original 25C battery capacity. Nothing is
"lost" when cooling the battery.

Except the ability to operate at that low temperature.
Once in operation, the internal temperature can be maintained simply
by the battery's own chemical action (if it's fairly well insulated),
but if you can't get it to START powering the light, you are stuck.
Then the ability to stick the battery in your armpit for a while can
be very handy, and having it permanently installed in the light makes
the package bulkier and more difficult to carry in such a warm spot,
as well as providing thermal insulation which means you must keep it
in that warm spot for longer before the battery itself is warmed
enough.

An external b attery pack can be tuck up under one's jacket
to warm the battery and keep it runninh longer. It's what
I do in winter on lond rides in the dark.

Yep, that works to improve battery capacity. Running the light cold
is not a good idea, which would be a problem if the battery were
non-removable. I suppose I could add a small chemical heater to the
light assembly, but that would create additional problems.

Like everything, there are advantages and disadvantages that
need to be considered for each person's needs or wants.

Yep which is why I didn't offer a conclusion or definitive opinion.
Methinks the market can accommodate both types of battery systems
because everyone's use and environment will be different. What works
for one person, may not work for others. In my case, temperature is
not an issue as I'm a fair weather rider. For me, price is the major
consideration since I don't ride very often or need a headline on
every ride. I don't want to make the headlight an investment. Since
an internal battery is cheaper, that would be my preference.

I forgot to mumble something about the rider that forgets to charge
their battery before a ride. If the battery is non-replaceable, they
will need to wait until the charger is done charging. With
replaceable batteries, a spare charged battery would get them going
instantly. Unfortunately, I've had the opposite problem, where I plug
a set of half dead batteries into the light, thinking they were
charged. Half way into my ride, the lights go out.

I always carried spares, even on short rides - you just never know
when something may delay you, and having spares also allows you to
extend the ride on a whim, or to give assistance to others.

On Monday, November 28, 2016 at 8:48:14 PM UTC-5, Phil Lee wrote:
Jeff Liebermann considered Mon, 28 Nov 2016
10:38:06 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:20:15 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A non-removable battery can not be switiched out
on a very long ride in the dark.

I beg to differ. The various "soft power switch" devices I've dealt
with, which lack a proper DC on/off switch, draw very little current
when off or in standby. Just about every laptop is like that, with
power being applied only to the switching circuitry and where the full
DC power does not go through the tiny on/off push button.

I think you've misunderstood - by "switched out" I believe Sir means
exchanged for a fully charged battery. If the battery is not
removable, you would have to either carry a spare light, or limit the
length of night rides to the battery duration.

A non-removable light can lose a fair bit of charge when it's
very cold outside.

You might be looking at it backwards. A LiIon battery has a very low
self discharge rate when cold, and looses more power when warm:
http://powerelectronics.com/mobile/designing-battery-packs-thermal-extremes
http://powerelectronics.com/site-files/powerelectronics.com/files/archive/powerelectronics.com/images/0606batterypacks-Figure04.jpg
Self discharge happens without any load, so a tiny amount of current
needed to run the on/off switch doesn't even show on the graphs.

What does happen is the battery looses capacity when cold:
http://images.slideplayer.com/16/4877973/slides/slide_13.jpg
When cold, the battery simply will not run the light as long as it
would if it were warm. Actually, that's not quite right because there
is no loss of available power. If you charge a battery at 25C, put it
in the cooler at 0C, raise it back to 25C, and then run a discharge
test, it will show the original 25C battery capacity. Nothing is
"lost" when cooling the battery.

Except the ability to operate at that low temperature.
Once in operation, the internal temperature can be maintained simply
by the battery's own chemical action (if it's fairly well insulated),
but if you can't get it to START powering the light, you are stuck.
Then the ability to stick the battery in your armpit for a while can
be very handy, and having it permanently installed in the light makes
the package bulkier and more difficult to carry in such a warm spot,
as well as providing thermal insulation which means you must keep it
in that warm spot for longer before the battery itself is warmed
enough.

An external b attery pack can be tuck up under one's jacket
to warm the battery and keep it runninh longer. It's what
I do in winter on lond rides in the dark.

Yep, that works to improve battery capacity. Running the light cold
is not a good idea, which would be a problem if the battery were
non-removable. I suppose I could add a small chemical heater to the
light assembly, but that would create additional problems.

Like everything, there are advantages and disadvantages that
need to be considered for each person's needs or wants.

Yep which is why I didn't offer a conclusion or definitive opinion.
Methinks the market can accommodate both types of battery systems
because everyone's use and environment will be different. What works
for one person, may not work for others. In my case, temperature is
not an issue as I'm a fair weather rider. For me, price is the major
consideration since I don't ride very often or need a headline on
every ride. I don't want to make the headlight an investment. Since
an internal battery is cheaper, that would be my preference.

I forgot to mumble something about the rider that forgets to charge
their battery before a ride. If the battery is non-replaceable, they
will need to wait until the charger is done charging. With
replaceable batteries, a spare charged battery would get them going
instantly. Unfortunately, I've had the opposite problem, where I plug
a set of half dead batteries into the light, thinking they were
charged. Half way into my ride, the lights go out.

I always carried spares, even on short rides - you just never know
when something may delay you, and having spares also allows you to
extend the ride on a whim, or to give assistance to others.

Thank you Phil. You are correct. Switching out the battery does mean removing the battery and replacing it with a fresh one. Where I live it's dark now about 4:30 PM and I do a lot of night riding. I've had instances where I've had to remve the battery pack from my water bottle holder and put the battery pack inside my jacket in order to warm it enough to use. I've also had times when I need to replace the battery whilst on a nigh ride. By changing the connectors on the battery and on the cable that leads to the light from the battery holder, I was able to buy other batteries for half the price at a model radio-control shop. With those extra battery packs i can head out for an all night ride even in winter if I want to. The light is a Cygo Lite Rover II and its external battery pack is fitted inside a casing designed to fit snuggly inside a water bottle holder on the bike frame. This light is quite good and lights up the road far betterthan almost any flashlight-come-bicycle-light does. The latter usually has too narrow a beam to see both lanes of a 2-lane road and seeing thiose 2 lanes is need when I ride in the country wherethere is no other lighting on the roads.

Cheers

On 11/28/2016 6:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


Thank you Phil. You are correct. Switching out the battery does mean removing the battery and replacing it with a fresh one. Where I live it's dark now about 4:30 PM and I do a lot of night riding. I've had instances where I've had to remve the battery pack from my water bottle holder and put the battery pack inside my jacket in order to warm it enough to use. I've also had times when I need to replace the battery whilst on a nigh ride. By changing the connectors on the battery and on the cable that leads to the light from the battery holder, I was able to buy other batteries for half the price at a model radio-control shop. With those extra battery packs i can head out for an all night ride even in winter if I want to. The light is a Cygo Lite Rover II and its external battery pack is fitted inside a casing designed to fit snuggly inside a water bottle holder on the bike frame. This light is quite good and lights up the road far betterthan almost any flashlight-come-bicycle-light does. The latter usually has too narrow a beam to see both lanes of a 2-lane road and seeing thiose 2 lanes is need when I ride in the country wherethere is no other lighting on the roads.


While it may be harder to put a light with an internal battery under
your arm in cold weather, the flip side is that with any LED light
you're generating a lot of waste heat that's being dissipated by the
heat sink (generally the aluminum case). That waste heat will warm the
battery compartment. With an external battery pack you don't have that
advantage.

The best option for cold weather is a removable internal battery where
you can warm just the battery but Jeff had a good list of the reasons to
use non-removable batteries. The increase in reliability is probably
worth the trouble it is to replace "non-removable" batteries when they
lose capacity. How many of us have had to deal with broken battery
covers and bad spring-loaded connections on various devices. It's not
just for planned obsolescence that more and more devices have non-user
replaceable internal rechargeable batteries.

To me, the big advantage of user-replaceable batteries is the ability to
carry spares for longer duration. Apparently that is not of paramount
concern with longer lasting internal batteries.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 11/28/2016 2:00 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 08:08:55 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/27/2016 6:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

A non-removable battery also:
1. Allows for an internal charge controller.

There are lights (and many other devices) with internal charge
controllers that have removable batteries.

Ever since my Canon G2, I've preferred digital cameras with internal
charge controllers (though the batteries can also be charged externally).

The trend seems to be towards external chargers, especially in the
tool business. The idea is that you buy two batteries. One battery
is on charge while the other is being used in the tools. My various
DeWalt tools are supplied with 2 batteries using that philosophy. I
have a similar system for some of my cameras and cell phones. I have
spare batteries and external chargers for each of them, even if they
are capable of internal charging. I find that things tend to work
better and last longer if I do the charging externally with a timed,
balanced, and monitored charger, than with a minimalist internal
charger.

My theory is that if an internal charger or battery management system
was provide with a non-removable light, the manufacturer would provide
a better quality charger, with a coulomb counting fuel gauge, that is
customized to properly charge only the attached battery. It may get
its power from an external automotive +12V source, but the actual
charging circuit is separate. In order to have the light and battery
survive the warranty period, the charger could need to be battery than
rudimentary. That would a little more difficult to do if the charge
history was reset every time the battery was removed from the light,
or when a different brand or chemistry cell was introduced.

All your fussing and scheming makes me glad I'm using dynamo lights.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/28/2016 10:56 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-11-27 10:39, jbeattie wrote:


You need 1000 lumens during the day?

On roads, yes.

Because, you know, Danger! Danger!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, November 28, 2016 at 10:14:20 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
All your fussing and scheming makes me glad I'm using dynamo lights.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I just knew you'd be chimijng in with a dynamo hub comment. VBEG LOL

The problems with many dynamo hubs and lights is that #1 they're not easily transferable amongst bicycles one owns and #2 they are often far too dim at low speeds to be useful. I tried a quality dynamo at a bicycle shop one night and the light at low speed flickered far too much to be useful - it was nearly as bad as trying to ride at night on dark roads whilst using a strobing light. thanks but no thanks. my battery light works very well for me and it has for 9 years now.

Cheers