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rear-facing dropouts



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 24th 18, 07:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default rear-facing dropouts

Tosspot wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of
hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these
days have track ends rather than dropouts?


Stops the rear wheel falling off.


Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come
loose the chain will still hold the wheel to
make time for an emergency stop?

Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]"
between track ends and dropouts? I always
considered dropouts better and more modern but
now that I think about it I don't know how or
why I came to that.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
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  #12  
Old October 24th 18, 07:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default rear-facing dropouts

On 10/24/2018 1:14 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Tosspot wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of
hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these
days have track ends rather than dropouts?


Stops the rear wheel falling off.


Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come
loose the chain will still hold the wheel to
make time for an emergency stop?

Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]"
between track ends and dropouts? I always
considered dropouts better and more modern but
now that I think about it I don't know how or
why I came to that.


Click to enlarge images:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/sisend.html

For single gear (fixed, FW, internal gearbox) you need an
inch of horizontal adjustment so any design except
single-point ends work. For modern index derailleur gearing
there are other subtleties to optimize shift response.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #13  
Old October 24th 18, 08:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default rear-facing dropouts

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:14:41 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Tosspot wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of
hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these
days have track ends rather than dropouts?


Stops the rear wheel falling off.


Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come
loose the chain will still hold the wheel to
make time for an emergency stop?

Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]"
between track ends and dropouts? I always
considered dropouts better and more modern but
now that I think about it I don't know how or
why I came to that.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


One advantage with rear facing track ends is that you can have the tire nearly touching the seat tube and still be able to get the wheel off without having to deflate it. That's because you don't need space with track ends to pull the wheel forward so the axle clears the slot. You do with forward facing dropouts.

Forward facing dropouts give you a good place to hang your derailleur.

Cheers
  #14  
Old October 24th 18, 11:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default rear-facing dropouts

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 4:55:46 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/24/2018 9:37 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
As for terminology, here is what it says:

Track bikes have rear-facing dropouts and
120mm-space hubs (rather than 130mm of
a road bike). Rear-facing dropouts offer
a stronger and simpler solution to
adjusting chain tension and accommodating
variations in sprocket (gear) sizes.

Page 188,

@book{complete-road-bike-maintenance,
author = {Guy Andrews},
ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9},
publisher = {Bloomsbury},
title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance},
year = 2013
}


Nonsense.

There's no functional difference for chain tension or
gearing between this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/mer11b.jpg
and this:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/endaxis.jpg


Hell, yes, of course there is a difference between rear facing and forward facing slots. The weight of the chain cannot pull the wheel out of the slot while you're trying to fix it with rear facing slots, whereas with forward facing slots you need a second person to hold the wheel in the slot while you turn the spanner.

Andre Jute
In real life people don't have a third, fourth and fifth hand. Well, my bonobo often seemed to be quadridexterous, but they were chimps, not bicyclists.
  #15  
Old October 25th 18, 06:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,563
Default rear-facing dropouts

On 10/24/18 9:29 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:14:41 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg
wrote:
Tosspot wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so
many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than
dropouts?

Stops the rear wheel falling off.


Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come loose the chain will
still hold the wheel to make time for an emergency stop?

Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]" between track ends
and dropouts? I always considered dropouts better and more modern
but now that I think about it I don't know how or why I came to
that.

-- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


One advantage with rear facing track ends is that you can have the
tire nearly touching the seat tube and still be able to get the wheel
off without having to deflate it. That's because you don't need space
with track ends to pull the wheel forward so the axle clears the
slot. You do with forward facing dropouts.

Forward facing dropouts give you a good place to hang your
derailleur.


There is no real reason 'track' fork ends can't have a derailleur, they
just don't. The advantages of each style are well known, but basically
single/fixes/hubs like a track end for 'easy' chain adjustment, every
body else would use forward facing or vertical for ease of getting the
rear wheel off/on. In my case, I use a vertical, with one of these,
albeit generic,

https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator

Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived advantages of a hub
drive, without the hassle of chain tensioning or the fudge or a short
reach derailleur. Yes Andre, I know, I can live with it.

See also

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Drop..._101_3354.html
  #16  
Old October 25th 18, 07:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default rear-facing dropouts

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 1:16:32 AM UTC-4, Tosspot wrote:
Snipped

There is no real reason 'track' fork ends can't have a derailleur, they
just don't. The advantages of each style are well known, but basically
single/fixes/hubs like a track end for 'easy' chain adjustment, every
body else would use forward facing or vertical for ease of getting the
rear wheel off/on. In my case, I use a vertical, with one of these,
albeit generic,

https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator

Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived advantages of a hub
drive, without the hassle of chain tensioning or the fudge or a short
reach derailleur. Yes Andre, I know, I can live with it.

See also

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Drop..._101_3354.html


Looks a lot as though that Sinleator was developed from either a V-brake caliper or an old school straight arm cantilever brake arm.

Cheers
  #17  
Old October 25th 18, 08:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default rear-facing dropouts

Andre Jute wrote:

whereas with forward facing slots you need
a second person to hold the wheel in the slot
while you turn the spanner.


Easier to turn the bike upside down and let the
axis fall into the dropout with the chain on.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #18  
Old October 25th 18, 11:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default rear-facing dropouts

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 3:37:48 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

whereas with forward facing slots you need
a second person to hold the wheel in the slot
while you turn the spanner.


Easier to turn the bike upside down and let the
axis fall into the dropout with the chain on.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


Yet MILLIONS of people who own bicycles with forward facing dropouts and nutted rear axles manage to replace a rear wheel all by themselves often at the side of the road and without having to turn the bicycle upside down either.

Cheers
  #19  
Old October 25th 18, 02:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default rear-facing dropouts

On 10/25/2018 12:16 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 10/24/18 9:29 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:14:41 PM UTC-4,
Emanuel Berg
wrote:
Tosspot wrote:

Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub
gearboxes, so
many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather
than
dropouts?

Stops the rear wheel falling off.

Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come loose the
chain will
still hold the wheel to make time for an emergency stop?

Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]" between
track ends
and dropouts? I always considered dropouts better and
more modern
but now that I think about it I don't know how or why I
came to
that.

-- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


One advantage with rear facing track ends is that you can
have the
tire nearly touching the seat tube and still be able to
get the wheel
off without having to deflate it. That's because you don't
need space
with track ends to pull the wheel forward so the axle
clears the
slot. You do with forward facing dropouts.

Forward facing dropouts give you a good place to hang your
derailleur.


There is no real reason 'track' fork ends can't have a
derailleur, they just don't. The advantages of each style
are well known, but basically single/fixes/hubs like a track
end for 'easy' chain adjustment, every body else would use
forward facing or vertical for ease of getting the rear
wheel off/on. In my case, I use a vertical, with one of
these, albeit generic,

https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator

Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived
advantages of a hub drive, without the hassle of chain
tensioning or the fudge or a short reach derailleur. Yes
Andre, I know, I can live with it.

See also

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Drop..._101_3354.html


see also :
http://www.yellowjersey.org/RIVTRACK.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #20  
Old October 25th 18, 02:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default rear-facing dropouts

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 11:59:37 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 3:37:48 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

whereas with forward facing slots you need
a second person to hold the wheel in the slot
while you turn the spanner.


Easier to turn the bike upside down and let the
axis fall into the dropout with the chain on.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


Yet MILLIONS of people who own bicycles with forward facing dropouts and nutted rear axles manage to replace a rear wheel all by themselves often at the side of the road and without having to turn the bicycle upside down either.

Cheers


Congratulations to you and to them, Ridealot. You've all failed Ergonomics 101.

Andre Jute
"Best I can do, guv," isn't good enough
 




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