Driver asleep in car is done for drunk in charge

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 10:17:02 AM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:

=====Quote=====
He asked her for the keys to the vehicle. She was unable to locate them and eventually found them on the floor of the foot well.
=====/Quote=====

So, if the policeman's evidence is correct, she didn't have them immediately available.



On this point you are wrong.

Have you never watched any of the many Police reality shows? There are
loads where the crim swears that they do not have something and a quick
search brings the object into view, it is a standard tactic.

Policeman: Do you HAVE your car keys?
Suspect: I don't know where they are.
Policeman: I am going to search you?
Suspect: OK
Policeman: *searches suspect but fails to find them*
Policeman: You don't HAVE them. When did you last HAVE them?
Suspect: Inside the car, they must be inside the car.
Policeman: Whereabouts in the car?
Suspect: I am not sure, I may have dropped them somewhere.
Suspect: *Scrabbles about in the car*
Suspect: Here they are, in the foot well. I HAVE them now.

On 27/02/2016 11:52, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 10:17:02 AM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:

=====Quote=====
He asked her for the keys to the vehicle. She was unable to locate them and eventually found them on the floor of the foot well.
=====/Quote=====

So, if the policeman's evidence is correct, she didn't have them immediately available.



On this point you are wrong.

Have you never watched any of the many Police reality shows? There are
loads where the crim swears that they do not have something and a quick
search brings the object into view, it is a standard tactic.

Policeman: Do you HAVE your car keys?
Suspect: I don't know where they are.
Policeman: I am going to search you?
Suspect: OK
Policeman: *searches suspect but fails to find them*
Policeman: You don't HAVE them. When did you last HAVE them?
Suspect: Inside the car, they must be inside the car.
Policeman: Whereabouts in the car?
Suspect: I am not sure, I may have dropped them somewhere.
Suspect: *Scrabbles about in the car*
Suspect: Here they are, in the foot well. I HAVE them now.


yep, and the perp had dropped them there a few moments before.
In DIC cases it is up to the defence to prove that there was no
likelihood of them driving, and having keys inside the car will not
support that, having the keys in the boot might be a way, but dropped in
easy reach of the driver would not.

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 12:23:08 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/02/2016 11:52, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 10:17:02 AM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:

=====Quote=====
He asked her for the keys to the vehicle. She was unable to locate them and eventually found them on the floor of the foot well.
=====/Quote=====

So, if the policeman's evidence is correct, she didn't have them immediately available.



On this point you are wrong.

Have you never watched any of the many Police reality shows? There are
loads where the crim swears that they do not have something and a quick
search brings the object into view, it is a standard tactic.

Policeman: Do you HAVE your car keys?
Suspect: I don't know where they are.
Policeman: I am going to search you?
Suspect: OK
Policeman: *searches suspect but fails to find them*
Policeman: You don't HAVE them. When did you last HAVE them?
Suspect: Inside the car, they must be inside the car.
Policeman: Whereabouts in the car?
Suspect: I am not sure, I may have dropped them somewhere.
Suspect: *Scrabbles about in the car*
Suspect: Here they are, in the foot well. I HAVE them now.


yep, and the perp had dropped them there a few moments before.
In DIC cases it is up to the defence to prove that there was no
likelihood of them driving, and having keys inside the car will not
support that, having the keys in the boot might be a way, but dropped in
easy reach of the driver would not.

I do not disagree with any of that.

On 27/02/2016 08:36, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 1:08:58 AM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 26/02/2016 19:16, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 5:45:27 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 26/02/2016 17:41, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 4:28:38 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 26/02/2016 07:57, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 2:03:20 AM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 26/02/2016 00:27, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 1:38:38 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 25/02/2016 08:35, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 2:33:55 AM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 25/02/2016 00:14, Tom Crispin wrote:

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 11:57:37 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 24/02/2016 23:36, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 11:23:24 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:

Right now, I don't know exactly where are the keys to any of the three
cars parked on the drive. I am in charge of two of them.
Does that mean I don't have the keys?

Put your hand in your pocket, if they are there, or somewhere else on your person, you have them. If not, you don't.

I have a collection of CDs (quite a lot of them).
They aren't in my pocket and AAMOF, I could never lift them all in one
go, not even in a very big box with handles.
Does that mean I don't have them?

Earlier today my wife asked me to open the car, I said, "I don't have the keys". I knew exactly where they were, but I didn't have them.

That's a turn of phrase.
Law and legal cases do not turn on such trifles.

Wrong - they can and do.
A recent (and important) high court collective enfranchisement case turned on the interpretation of the term "residential".
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2014/2433.html

Court cases frequently turn upon the meaning of words used in the law.

But let's see whether you can find a case where the verb "to have" was
interpreted so as to be negated by having dropped the item from the
hands onto the floor of a car.

It is interesting to note that you think that every time most people walk down the local high street they have a kitchen knife.

Insofar as the word simply means "own", than many people will have such
an item.

Nut that is not the term of art meaning of "have" in the context of a
motor vehicle's ignition key when one is found sitting in the vehicle
whilst over the blood alcohol limit.

Neither, to her credit (and very wisely), did the defendant seek to rely
upon the sort of advice she might have received had she only consulted
Crispin Legal Services (SE).

I couldn't possibly better the legal advice she seems to have had. Plead guilty and plead guilty at the earliest possible opportunity.

I simply dispute your claim:
=====Quote=====
The driver *had* the keys
=====/Quote=====

Clearly she didn't anymore than I *had* a kitchen knife last time I went through airport security.

She was a few inches from them. And she knew it.

I forgot - you're the learned Solomon.

What has judgment - of any sort - got to do with the simple and
unassailable fact that the defendant was in charge of a motor vehicle
(indeed, she admitted that some at least of her alcohol intake had taken
place in the motor vehicle) and was over the prescribed blood alcohol limit?

You won't find me disputing that.

There is nothing to judge: she was bang to rights.

Nor that.

If dropping the car keys into the footwell were a defence against the
charge of being drunk in charge, that would have come to the attention
of people like the famous Mr Loophole by now.

I never claimed it was a loophole.

And people like you would be howling with indignation.

Not at all. I simply dispute that she had the keys when asked for them...

...even though she had them.

Only in NugentWorld where most people passing through airport security have an arsenal of potential weapons.

You are desperate for a scored point and picked entirely the wrong
thread to try to score it.

"Have" here, in this case, where a drunk driver had merely dropped the
ignition key onto the floorwell, means both "possess" AND "have
immediately available".

=====Quote=====
He asked her for the keys to the vehicle. She was unable to locate them and eventually found them on the floor of the foot well.
=====/Quote=====

So, if the policeman's evidence is correct, she didn't have them immediately available.

Wrong.

See whether you can work out why the police officer's evidence can be
100% accurate even though the offender had the keys immediately available.

Picking up the keys from the floor is not an impediment to driving. Had
she dropped them down the nearest drain before getting back into the
car, she might have got away with it (on the "unlikely to drive" defence).

On 27/02/2016 10:12, Alycidon wrote:
On Saturday, 27 February 2016 08:36:30 UTC, Tom Crispin wrote:

=====Quote=====
He asked her for the keys to the vehicle. She was unable to locate them and eventually found them on the floor of the foot well.
=====/Quote=====

So, if the policeman's evidence is correct, she didn't have them immediately available.

Exactly - so if I have had a few pints and the car is in the road, the police can do me for drunk in charge if my car key is in the rear conservatory and I am at the front door?

Was the offender's car key miles away somewhere in her home's
conservatory, then?

or is Mason just on a flight of fantasy?

On 27/02/2016 17:34, Phil W Lee wrote:
Alycidon considered Sat, 27 Feb 2016 02:12:04
-0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:

On Saturday, 27 February 2016 08:36:30 UTC, Tom Crispin wrote:

=====Quote=====
He asked her for the keys to the vehicle. She was unable to locate them and eventually found them on the floor of the foot well.
=====/Quote=====

So, if the policeman's evidence is correct, she didn't have them immediately available.

Exactly - so if I have had a few pints and the car is in the road, the police can do me for drunk in charge if my car key is in the rear conservatory and I am at the front door?

Unless your wife has locked you out to prevent you reaching them,
probably - and that would be true even if the car was on your
driveway.

Does the offence subsist without the vehicle being on the highway or in
a "public place"?

O never knew that.

On 27/02/2016 11:52, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 10:17:02 AM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:

=====Quote=====
He asked her for the keys to the vehicle. She was unable to locate them and eventually found them on the floor of the foot well.
=====/Quote=====

So, if the policeman's evidence is correct, she didn't have them immediately available.



On this point you are wrong.

Have you never watched any of the many Police reality shows? There are
loads where the crim swears that they do not have something and a quick
search brings the object into view, it is a standard tactic.

Policeman: Do you HAVE your car keys?
Suspect: I don't know where they are.
Policeman: I am going to search you?
Suspect: OK
Policeman: *searches suspect but fails to find them*
Policeman: You don't HAVE them. When did you last HAVE them?
Suspect: Inside the car, they must be inside the car.
Policeman: Whereabouts in the car?
Suspect: I am not sure, I may have dropped them somewhere.
Suspect: *Scrabbles about in the car*
Suspect: Here they are, in the foot well. I HAVE them now.

Had them all the time.

And the defendant had the grace to accept that without the need for it
to be demonstrated.

On 27/02/2016 13:10, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 12:23:08 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/02/2016 11:52, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 10:17:02 AM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:

=====Quote=====
He asked her for the keys to the vehicle. She was unable to locate them and eventually found them on the floor of the foot well.
=====/Quote=====

So, if the policeman's evidence is correct, she didn't have them immediately available.



On this point you are wrong.

Have you never watched any of the many Police reality shows? There are
loads where the crim swears that they do not have something and a quick
search brings the object into view, it is a standard tactic.

Policeman: Do you HAVE your car keys?
Suspect: I don't know where they are.
Policeman: I am going to search you?
Suspect: OK
Policeman: *searches suspect but fails to find them*
Policeman: You don't HAVE them. When did you last HAVE them?
Suspect: Inside the car, they must be inside the car.
Policeman: Whereabouts in the car?
Suspect: I am not sure, I may have dropped them somewhere.
Suspect: *Scrabbles about in the car*
Suspect: Here they are, in the foot well. I HAVE them now.


yep, and the perp had dropped them there a few moments before.
In DIC cases it is up to the defence to prove that there was no
likelihood of them driving, and having keys inside the car will not
support that, having the keys in the boot might be a way, but dropped in
easy reach of the driver would not.

I do not disagree with any of that.

Oh yes, you do.

Are you here for the full half-hour, BTW?

On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 1:31:49 AM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 27/02/2016 13:10, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 12:23:08 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/02/2016 11:52, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 10:17:02 AM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:

=====Quote=====
He asked her for the keys to the vehicle. She was unable to locate them and eventually found them on the floor of the foot well.
=====/Quote=====

So, if the policeman's evidence is correct, she didn't have them immediately available.



On this point you are wrong.

Have you never watched any of the many Police reality shows? There are
loads where the crim swears that they do not have something and a quick
search brings the object into view, it is a standard tactic.

Policeman: Do you HAVE your car keys?
Suspect: I don't know where they are.
Policeman: I am going to search you?
Suspect: OK
Policeman: *searches suspect but fails to find them*
Policeman: You don't HAVE them. When did you last HAVE them?
Suspect: Inside the car, they must be inside the car.
Policeman: Whereabouts in the car?
Suspect: I am not sure, I may have dropped them somewhere.
Suspect: *Scrabbles about in the car*
Suspect: Here they are, in the foot well. I HAVE them now.


yep, and the perp had dropped them there a few moments before.
In DIC cases it is up to the defence to prove that there was no
likelihood of them driving, and having keys inside the car will not
support that, having the keys in the boot might be a way, but dropped in
easy reach of the driver would not.

I do not disagree with any of that.

Oh yes, you do.

No I don't. That is one possible version of events - which cannot be gleaned from the reported evidence.

What we do know, assuming the policeman is being truthful, is that when asked for the keys, the drunk didn't have them. We also know that she later found them in the foot well.

What we cannot be certain about is how long the ****-head didn't have the keys. Whether it was from the moment after she locked herself into the car or just before the cop asked her from them we cannot glean from the information provided.

Are you here for the full half-hour, BTW?

On 28/02/2016 09:16, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 1:31:49 AM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 27/02/2016 13:10, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 12:23:08 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/02/2016 11:52, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 10:17:02 AM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:

=====Quote=====
He asked her for the keys to the vehicle. She was unable to locate them and eventually found them on the floor of the foot well.
=====/Quote=====

So, if the policeman's evidence is correct, she didn't have them immediately available.



On this point you are wrong.

Have you never watched any of the many Police reality shows? There are
loads where the crim swears that they do not have something and a quick
search brings the object into view, it is a standard tactic.

Policeman: Do you HAVE your car keys?
Suspect: I don't know where they are.
Policeman: I am going to search you?
Suspect: OK
Policeman: *searches suspect but fails to find them*
Policeman: You don't HAVE them. When did you last HAVE them?
Suspect: Inside the car, they must be inside the car.
Policeman: Whereabouts in the car?
Suspect: I am not sure, I may have dropped them somewhere.
Suspect: *Scrabbles about in the car*
Suspect: Here they are, in the foot well. I HAVE them now.


yep, and the perp had dropped them there a few moments before.
In DIC cases it is up to the defence to prove that there was no
likelihood of them driving, and having keys inside the car will not
support that, having the keys in the boot might be a way, but dropped in
easy reach of the driver would not.

I do not disagree with any of that.

Oh yes, you do.

No I don't. That is one possible version of events - which cannot be gleaned from the reported evidence. What we do know, assuming the policeman is being truthful, is that when asked for the keys, the drunk didn't have them.

We cannot possibly know that, because we know it isn't true.

We also know that she later found them in the foot well.

She had them all the time.

What we cannot be certain about is how long the ****-head didn't have the keys. Whether it was from the moment after she locked herself into the car or just before the cop asked her from them we cannot glean from the information provided.

Now you're being silly again.

Are you here for the full half-hour, BTW?