#121
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BB standard
On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 10:16:21 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 3/7/19 2:42 pm, James wrote: On 3/7/19 12:04 am, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 5:16:41 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 7/1/2019 11:09 PM, jbeattie wrote: More convenient -- whether they're better, I don't know. It looks like a standard cartridge bearing.Â* I don't know why it would fare any better than any other quality cartridge bearing, but maybe they're special in some way. -- Jay Beattie. Different quality bearings with the same bearing number can have dramatically different wear and longevity. This isn't news. Absolutely, but from what I can tell, both the Campy and Shimano cranks use a 6805N-2RS, probably with ABEC 5/7 steel balls in the mid-range, so I was wondering what distinguished the Campy OE bearings. Are they some sort of super-steel? I've gotten a pretty long life out of some bearings, but nowhere near 25,000 miles out of a BB, assuming the frame and crank lasted that long. Perhaps also the seal in the Campag cup helps stop rusty water from getting to the bearing from the inside? I don't do much wet weather riding, but I read on a forum just now "In my experience, Campag's bearings are amongst the best; mine lasted well over 10,000km of all-weather commuting." My frame is also fairly well sealed from moisture, so it appears.Â* I don't find water dripping from the BB drain hole after a wet ride, and I haven't found rusty residue in the BB shell at times when I remove the cranks.Â* The bearing grease always looks pretty clean too. I should mention that before I got my first UT cranks, I had used both Shimano and Campag "sealed" cartridge BB assemblies, and they would last maybe one season if I was lucky. Mostly they would start making noises well before that. I have mates with Shimano cranks & BB with outboard bearings, who suffer clunks and creaks from the BB, and the occasional left crank that drops off because the 2 little pinch bolts weren't tight enough. Obviously the mechanic's fault, or the engineering. I figure a single big bolt that holds the axle halves together, and a wire clip to locate one bearing in the housing is simple and robust enough for most amateur mechanics to get right. I haven't had a problem with the pinch bolts except ruining a head and having to drill/bolt-extractor it. The socket heads are relatively soft (even using spec'd torque and a good bit). They do require some care. I imagine that if you talked to enough UT users, you will find someone whose center-bolt came loose. Any fastener can loosen. And any threaded cup can creak, even UT cups per internet reports. My personal belief is that a lot of BB creaking is not the BB. Like I mentioned, I replaced the BB30 bearings on my commuter after a couple of years believing that they were creaking, and they weren't. It was the stem and headset and probably the HS compression nut in the steerer. I get clicking out of he rear axle/dropout interface that is "unmistakably" from the BB. Anyway, I now have some nice new BB bearings in my commuter installed with Loctite 609. The bike is creak/click free, which is kind of weird since it is a Cannondale aluminum CX frame, renowned for being a one-man band. -- Jay Beattie. |
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#122
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BB standard
On 7/3/2019 10:31 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 10:16:21 PM UTC-7, James wrote: On 3/7/19 2:42 pm, James wrote: On 3/7/19 12:04 am, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 5:16:41 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 7/1/2019 11:09 PM, jbeattie wrote: More convenient -- whether they're better, I don't know. It looks like a standard cartridge bearing.Â* I don't know why it would fare any better than any other quality cartridge bearing, but maybe they're special in some way. -- Jay Beattie. Different quality bearings with the same bearing number can have dramatically different wear and longevity. This isn't news. Absolutely, but from what I can tell, both the Campy and Shimano cranks use a 6805N-2RS, probably with ABEC 5/7 steel balls in the mid-range, so I was wondering what distinguished the Campy OE bearings. Are they some sort of super-steel? I've gotten a pretty long life out of some bearings, but nowhere near 25,000 miles out of a BB, assuming the frame and crank lasted that long. Perhaps also the seal in the Campag cup helps stop rusty water from getting to the bearing from the inside? I don't do much wet weather riding, but I read on a forum just now "In my experience, Campag's bearings are amongst the best; mine lasted well over 10,000km of all-weather commuting." My frame is also fairly well sealed from moisture, so it appears.Â* I don't find water dripping from the BB drain hole after a wet ride, and I haven't found rusty residue in the BB shell at times when I remove the cranks.Â* The bearing grease always looks pretty clean too. I should mention that before I got my first UT cranks, I had used both Shimano and Campag "sealed" cartridge BB assemblies, and they would last maybe one season if I was lucky. Mostly they would start making noises well before that. I have mates with Shimano cranks & BB with outboard bearings, who suffer clunks and creaks from the BB, and the occasional left crank that drops off because the 2 little pinch bolts weren't tight enough. Obviously the mechanic's fault, or the engineering. I figure a single big bolt that holds the axle halves together, and a wire clip to locate one bearing in the housing is simple and robust enough for most amateur mechanics to get right. I haven't had a problem with the pinch bolts except ruining a head and having to drill/bolt-extractor it. The socket heads are relatively soft (even using spec'd torque and a good bit). They do require some care. I imagine that if you talked to enough UT users, you will find someone whose center-bolt came loose. Any fastener can loosen. And any threaded cup can creak, even UT cups per internet reports. My personal belief is that a lot of BB creaking is not the BB. Like I mentioned, I replaced the BB30 bearings on my commuter after a couple of years believing that they were creaking, and they weren't. It was the stem and headset and probably the HS compression nut in the steerer. I get clicking out of he rear axle/dropout interface that is "unmistakably" from the BB. Anyway, I now have some nice new BB bearings in my commuter installed with Loctite 609. The bike is creak/click free, which is kind of weird since it is a Cannondale aluminum CX frame, renowned for being a one-man band. I've had "bottom bracket noises" that turned out to be from the quill stem, from a slightly loose chainring bolt, and on one bike, from the saddle itself. The soft saddle parts were somehow creaking against the saddle's wire frame. Of course, I've also had genuine BB noises. But bike noises can be devilish things to trace. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#123
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BB standard
On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 3:41:34 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 4/7/19 12:31 am, jbeattie wrote: On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 10:16:21 PM UTC-7, James wrote: I should mention that before I got my first UT cranks, I had used both Shimano and Campag "sealed" cartridge BB assemblies, and they would last maybe one season if I was lucky. Mostly they would start making noises well before that. I have mates with Shimano cranks & BB with outboard bearings, who suffer clunks and creaks from the BB, and the occasional left crank that drops off because the 2 little pinch bolts weren't tight enough. Obviously the mechanic's fault, or the engineering. I figure a single big bolt that holds the axle halves together, and a wire clip to locate one bearing in the housing is simple and robust enough for most amateur mechanics to get right. I haven't had a problem with the pinch bolts except ruining a head and having to drill/bolt-extractor it. The socket heads are relatively soft (even using spec'd torque and a good bit). They do require some care. I imagine that if you talked to enough UT users, you will find someone whose center-bolt came loose. Any fastener can loosen. And any threaded cup can creak, even UT cups per internet reports. The centre bolt is spec'd to be tightened to something like 50Nm, IIRC. Good for fists of ham, and highly unlikely to loosen. I apply a smear of oil like fisholene to BB cups. Never had noises from them. My only gripe is the weak aluminium chain ring bolts, but I think there are after market steel ones available? My personal belief is that a lot of BB creaking is not the BB. Like I mentioned, I replaced the BB30 bearings on my commuter after a couple of years believing that they were creaking, and they weren't. It was the stem and headset and probably the HS compression nut in the steerer. I get clicking out of he rear axle/dropout interface that is "unmistakably" from the BB. Anyway, I now have some nice new BB bearings in my commuter installed with Loctite 609. The bike is creak/click free, which is kind of weird since it is a Cannondale aluminum CX frame, renowned for being a one-man band. It's pretty easy to be sure that a noise came from a place and is now fixed when after you reassemble that part properly the noise is gone. -- JS I agree, but just for the record, when you're working with more than one variable, it's hard to know what fixed what. It could be a pinch bolt, or a center bolt, or a wavy washer, or a dry crank spindle or what-have-you. BUT when the bearings are shot, it was probably the bearings. I only mention this because both my commuter and gravel bike had incredibly snap, crackle, pop front ends. On the gravel bike, I greased the HS, bars, stem and HS compression nut. On the other, I just greased the compression nut -- which seemed to be the problem because all the creaking stopped. OTOH, some of the creaking has returned on the gravel bike, so I have to figure out what that means. -- Jay Beattie. |
#124
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BB standard
On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 10:44:19 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
A lot of kids are capable driving a clutch but see it as a throw-back. -- Jay Beattie. I might argue with you on that. How can these kids be capable of driving a clutch if they and their parents have never ever driven with a clutch? Their family has never owned a car with a clutch. There have been very few manual transmission cars sold in the past 20 years. And a 20 year old car is about the oldest you will see on the streets today. |
#125
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BB standard
On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 9:20:21 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 10:44:19 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: A lot of kids are capable driving a clutch but see it as a throw-back. -- Jay Beattie. I might argue with you on that. How can these kids be capable of driving a clutch if they and their parents have never ever driven with a clutch? Their family has never owned a car with a clutch. There have been very few manual transmission cars sold in the past 20 years. And a 20 year old car is about the oldest you will see on the streets today. I agree that most don't know how to drive a manual, but the kids I know who can drive a manual prefer not to. I'm thinking specifically of my son's cohort who will share driving duties in his manual 4Runner on road trips -- but who all own automatics. I don't know how they learned to drive a clutch or if they're any good, but they're apparently good enough to get the truck rolling and up to highway speeds. -- Jay Beattie. |
#126
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BB standard
jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 9:20:21 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 10:44:19 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote: A lot of kids are capable driving a clutch but see it as a throw-back. -- Jay Beattie. I might argue with you on that. How can these kids be capable of driving a clutch if they and their parents have never ever driven with a clutch? Their family has never owned a car with a clutch. There have been very few manual transmission cars sold in the past 20 years. And a 20 year old car is about the oldest you will see on the streets today. I agree that most don't know how to drive a manual, but the kids I know who can drive a manual prefer not to. I'm thinking specifically of my son's cohort who will share driving duties in his manual 4Runner on road trips -- but who all own automatics. I don't know how they learned to drive a clutch or if they're any good, but they're apparently good enough to get the truck rolling and up to highway speeds. -- Jay Beattie. I used to drive only manuals. Living in Boston and working up the 128 with the bumper to bumper traffic made me reconsider. -- duane |
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