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#21
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Freeing up stuck derailleur pantogram
On 2/5/2021 11:06 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 09:13:18 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 2/5/2021 12:55 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:19:32 -0000 (UTC), "D. Pureheart Steinbruner" wrote: Well, the heck of it is that it worked perfectly well at first and only had to sit a few weeks in my garage to freeze up. The garage temperature might be cold enough to turn the lube oil to tar. While it's mostly functional just wondered what is preferred lube or maybe propane torch *then* lube. I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap. https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately, I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea what might happen. Also, I suggest that you try my standard method of dealing with unknown devices. I tear everything apart, inspect everything, and clean everything. This doesn't really fix anything, but does give me an excuse to closely inspect all the parts for wear, damage, and foreign debris. The culprit usually appears during the inspection. It also gives me an opportunity to learn how it works. In theory, once I understand how something works, I can usually fix it. https://www.thisiscolossal.com/2013/05/things-come-apart-a-new-book-of-disassembled-objects-by-todd-mclellan/ Well, maybe not quite "usually". Good luck. Good choices. Sewing machine oil was also sold as "Sturmey Archer Cycle Oil" at one time. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-S...4AAOSw2w5gHUn4 Sewing machine and clock oils are usually based on common mineral oil. The polymers in the oil are cracked into smaller lengths to give it a lower viscosity. However, all petroleum based oils have the irritating habit of attacking rubber seals and plastic parts. You won't find that in a clock or sewing machine, both of which are mostly metal on metal. So, the synthetic sewing machine substitutes are used for those situations where the oil needs to touch rubber or plastic (or possibly paint). What I like about all of them is that they act the same whether hot, cold, wet, or dry. For things with tight clearances which are stuck, try Rock-N-Roll. It's unearthly in its penetration. I know this sounds like a tout but it really is exceptional. https://www.rocklube.com I'll give it a try. Ummm... which version? https://www.rocklube.com/products.html I'll look at the MSDS sheet later. My guess(tm) is that it's mostly mineral oil or a silicon based synthetic. My favorite penetrating oil is Kroil, which is banned in the Peoples Republic of California. I was somewhat involved in this mess: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/kano-laboratories-inc-settlement I guess I shouldn't mention that I have a few unmarked cans of ozone depleting Kroil left in my secret stash. No, you can't have any. https://www.kroil.com We carefully select a bottle of Rock-N-Roll (Red, Blue, Gold) for the shop based on whatever is most plentiful on the shelf when the prior bottle runs out. We can't tell any difference. Haven't had the White Holy Cow long enough to have an opinion but seems the same as the others. Probably not made out of these but who knows: https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/whit...i-49603350.jpg Incidentally the original was brown like very strong tea. Colors came later but the product doesn't seem all that different. IME there's nothing quite like it for making tight things move again. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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#22
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Freeing up stuck derailleur pantogram
On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 12:06:45 PM UTC-5, wrote:
My favorite penetrating oil is Kroil, which is banned in the Peoples Republic of California. I was somewhat involved in this mess: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/kano-laboratories-inc-settlement I guess I shouldn't mention that I have a few unmarked cans of ozone depleting Kroil left in my secret stash. No, you can't have any. https://www.kroil.com From the Kroil website: “My priest suggested Kroil to help me clean up my language.” - Amazon Review |
#23
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Freeing up stuck derailleur pantogram
On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 7:13:38 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/5/2021 12:55 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 06:19:32 -0000 (UTC), "D. Pureheart Steinbruner" wrote: Well, the heck of it is that it worked perfectly well at first and only had to sit a few weeks in my garage to freeze up. The garage temperature might be cold enough to turn the lube oil to tar. While it's mostly functional just wondered what is preferred lube or maybe propane torch *then* lube. I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap. https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately, I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea what might happen. Also, I suggest that you try my standard method of dealing with unknown devices. I tear everything apart, inspect everything, and clean everything. This doesn't really fix anything, but does give me an excuse to closely inspect all the parts for wear, damage, and foreign debris. The culprit usually appears during the inspection. It also gives me an opportunity to learn how it works. In theory, once I understand how something works, I can usually fix it. https://www.thisiscolossal.com/2013/05/things-come-apart-a-new-book-of-disassembled-objects-by-todd-mclellan/ Well, maybe not quite "usually". Good luck. Good choices. Sewing machine oil was also sold as "Sturmey Archer Cycle Oil" at one time. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-S...4AAOSw2w5gHUn4 For things with tight clearances which are stuck, try Rock-N-Roll. It's unearthly in its penetration. I know this sounds like a tout but it really is exceptional. Rock and Roll is a chain oil that is in large part a degreaser for cleaning the chain and then a Teflon powder in solution with it to embed Teflon in small cracks and crevices. This is good stuff but you have to leave it dry overnight so that the degreaser completely evaporates or the lubricant oozes out. For parts like derailleur hinges of various sorts, I have a can of Campagnolo grease that I must have bought 100 years ago. It is thin and clear and viscous enough that it embeds itself in all of the surfaces that are being lubricated. If it ever hardens I've never been able to see it. It doesn't penetrate nor does it work its way in so it only seems to work well on surfaces it can be directly applied. I have always preferred grease for lubrication rather than oil or plastic substitutes. |
#24
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OT: Plastic in sewing machines. Freeing up stuck derailleurpantogram
On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 09:06:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann scribed:
Sewing machine and clock oils are usually based on common mineral oil. The polymers in the oil are cracked into smaller lengths to give it a lower viscosity. However, all petroleum based oils have the irritating habit of attacking rubber seals and plastic parts. You won't find that in a clock or sewing machine, both of which are mostly metal on metal. Maybe a century or half ago. Take a trip to a local clock shop and look carefully at wall clocks. All driven by copious plastic ears in a little square match box side device. Starting to be the same with domestic sewing machines where some of the gears are plastic for the expected relative short life (shde of design by Henry Ford). They are not designed to become heirlooms within the family like mum's old Singer treadle could have been. FWIW, sewing machine oil is a very good generic light oi in a household. |
#25
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OT: Plastic in sewing machines. Freeing up stuck derailleur pantogram
On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 02:42:17 -0000 (UTC), News 2021
wrote: On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 09:06:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann scribed: Sewing machine and clock oils are usually based on common mineral oil. The polymers in the oil are cracked into smaller lengths to give it a lower viscosity. However, all petroleum based oils have the irritating habit of attacking rubber seals and plastic parts. You won't find that in a clock or sewing machine, both of which are mostly metal on metal. Maybe a century or half ago. Take a trip to a local clock shop and look carefully at wall clocks. All driven by copious plastic ears in a little square match box side device. Yeah, I know. I do some minor clock repair. Most of what I see are steel shafts and brass gears sandwiched between brass or steel plates. I've done some plastic gear clocks. Mostly, what I did was to remove the lubricant and its residue. The general recommendation is to NOT lube plastic gears. However, there are those who suggest otherwise. For example, Machine Design article says mineral oil is just fine on plastic gears: https://www.machinedesign.com/motors-drives/article/21831576/engineering-essentials-lubrication-tips-for-plastic-gears-and-more-part-2 Typically, lubricants based on silicone, PFAE (perflourinated), most synthetic hydrocarbons (SHC or PAO), or mineral oils work well with plastics. Lubricants based on esters or polyglycols are generally not compatible with plastics, although there are exceptions depending on the type of plastic. Of course, there's an equal amount of hype and magic in clock oils as there is in bicycle chain lubricants: https://www.kensclockclinic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Clock-Oils.pdf 16.8 MBytes and 35 pages of what looks like a power point presentation in PDF form. Worth reading methinks. Starting to be the same with domestic sewing machines where some of the gears are plastic for the expected relative short life (shde of design by Henry Ford). They are not designed to become heirlooms within the family like mum's old Singer treadle could have been. Yep. I learned sewing machine repair in my father's lingerie factory in Smog Angeles. I'm certainly not an expert on sewing machines but have learned a few things. One obvious item is that industrial sewing machines are VERY different from the typical home sewing machine. The older home sewing machines tend to be better built because they were used more often. When I was young, there was an entire industry built on alterations and fitting clothes. Sewing was taught in the schools. Today, everything is pre-fitted and not intended to last. So, the home sewing machines of today are not built to run as long or as often as the older machines. Plastic or fiberglass gears are certainly part of the problem. However, unless home sewing magically becomes a new fad, there's really no incentive to make sewing machines that last longer than the warranty period. FWIW, sewing machine oil is a very good generic light oi in a household. Yep. I used to use "turbine oil" for most everything around the house. It handles high temperatures nicely, but doesn't do anything else that's exceptional. I've switched to sewing machine oil for most things: https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil&tbm=isch and clock oil: https://www.google.com/search?q=clock+oil&tbm=isch for things where low evaporation and constant viscosity with temperature are important. -- Jeff Liebermann PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#26
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Freeing up stuck derailleur pantogram
On Thu, 04 Feb 2021 22:55:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap. https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately, I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea what might happen. I believe it was a derailleur that a sag team once loosened up with sun-tan oil. The rider was told to clean it off and use real oil when he got home, since we suspected that prolonged exposure to air would turn sun-tan oil into varnish. That was during a September Century, so that was an era ago. -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ |
#27
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OT: Plastic in sewing machines. Freeing up stuck derailleur pantogram
On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 1:17:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
The general recommendation is to NOT lube plastic gears. However, there are those who suggest otherwise. For example, Machine Design article says mineral oil is just fine on plastic gears: https://www.machinedesign.com/motors-drives/article/21831576/engineering-essentials-lubrication-tips-for-plastic-gears-and-more-part-2 Typically, lubricants based on silicone, PFAE (perflourinated), most synthetic hydrocarbons (SHC or PAO), or mineral oils work well with plastics. Lubricants based on esters or polyglycols are generally not compatible with plastics, although there are exceptions depending on the type of plastic. This is a special area of concern in my field. My company makes liquid product storage/transportation overfill prevention systems. 90% of our business is fuels (gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, home heating oil), and the remainder are a wide variety of other liquid chemicals. Believe it or not, we do a stable but small business in the scotch/whisky industry in the UK. The seals used in the components have to be impervious to the specific medium being processed. When designing new products, we do a long-term exposure of the material to the likely chemicals it will be exposed to under heat - generally a 30 day soak in the liquid and concentrated vapor at 60C. Every few days we check the durometer and weight of the samples. A static seal can be allowed some absorption as long as it recovers back to the original durometer and weight after drying. A moving seal must exhibit statiscally insignificant change. In either case a change of more than a few percent is very bad. We have found that fuels with high ethanol do a fantastic job attacking certain rubbers. Bringing us back to bicycles, This is why you cannot use brake fluid in brakes designed for mineral oil and vice versa. The seals swell up from absorbing the wrong liquid and the brake seizes. I did a bunch of reading on the subject back when I installed my first set of hydraulic brakes on an MTB, thought I was going to be a wise guy and try automotive antifreeze instead of the mineral oil. It has significantly lower viscosity for quicker response and excellent thermal transfer characteristics (unlike either mineral oil or brake fluid). There are in fact companies making 'water brakes' for bicycles (https://www.brakeforceone.de). According to the data sheets I was able to get, there shouldn't have been a problem with the seals in ethylene glycol. I didn't consider the effect of water, and the data sheets don't list water. After a month of riding, the seal in the lever piston wouldn't move. I took everything apart, let it dry off for a week, and the seals recovered nicely. Two years later with mineral oil in the system everything works great. |
#28
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Freeing up stuck derailleur pantogram
On Friday, February 5, 2021 at 11:43:43 PM UTC-8, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Thu, 04 Feb 2021 22:55:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap. https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately, I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea what might happen. I believe it was a derailleur that a sag team once loosened up with sun-tan oil. The rider was told to clean it off and use real oil when he got home, since we suspected that prolonged exposure to air would turn sun-tan oil into varnish. That was during a September Century, so that was an era ago. Joy, this is a tech group and you make a comment about an emergency repair that is only a thousand times more technical than people talking about old clocks with plastic gears and plates. It is embarrassing to read this stuff on this group. |
#29
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Freeing up stuck derailleur pantogram
On Sat, 06 Feb 2021 02:43:39 -0500, Joy Beeson
wrote: On Thu, 04 Feb 2021 22:55:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap. https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately, I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea what might happen. I believe it was a derailleur that a sag team once loosened up with sun-tan oil. The rider was told to clean it off and use real oil when he got home, since we suspected that prolonged exposure to air would turn sun-tan oil into varnish. That was during a September Century, so that was an era ago. I'll assume is was some form of sunscreen, rather than a suntanning dye. I was rather suprised by the ingredients list for Coppertone UltraGuard Continuous Sunscreen Spray: https://imgcdn.mckesson.com/CumulusWeb/Click_and_learn/SDS_9BAYER_COPPERTONE_SPORT_SPRAY_SPF15_5_5OZ.pdf It's mostly ethyl alcohol, which will rapidly evaporate, and the usual mineral oil, which is an effective lubricant. The alcohol will loosen any gummy oil residue and the mineral oil will act as a lubricant. INGREDIENT CAS NUMBER PERCENT Ethyl Alcohol 64-17-5 45-85 Isopropyl Myristate 110-27-0 15 Amines, Coco Alkyl Mixture 10 Light Mineral Oil 8042-47-5 10 Glycerin 56-81-5 10 Avobenzone 70356-09-1 0-3 Homosalate 118-56-9 0-15 Octinoxate 5466-77-3 0-7.5 Octisalate 118-60-5 0-5 Octocrylene 6197-30-4 0-10 Oxybenzone 131-57-7 0-6 Ethyl Alcohol is a carrier for the oils and compounds. When it evaporates, the oils are left on the skin. Isopropy Myristate is a mixture of isopropyl alcohol and a fatty acid, usually butter. It's commonly used in cosmetics to enhance the skins natural oil barrier. Amines, Coco Alkyl Mixture is possibly a fragrance mix. I'm not sure. Light Mineral Oil and Glycerin hold the various chemical filters in place against the skin. Homosalate, Octinoxate, Octisalate, Octocrylene, and Oxybenzone are chemical filters for different wavelengths of light. I think these are all powders. https://www.ewg.org/sunscreen/report/the-trouble-with-sunscreen-chemicals/ Avobenzone is a UVA absorber. So, which ingredient is harmful to a derailleur? The ethyl alcohol can attack plastic, but probably has insufficient surface contact time. You would have to paint it on and replace it when it evaporates, in order to see an effect. The mineral oil and glycerin are the likely culprits. Both will turn to varnish eventually. Mineral oil is often used as a varnish in woodworking: https://www.hunker.com/13403990/mineral-oil-as-a-wood-finish The sag team people were right about a varnish problem with sun tan oil (sunscreen). Almost any organic solvent would remove the varnish, so cleanup should not have been a problem. -- Jeff Liebermann PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272 Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#30
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Freeing up stuck derailleur pantogram
On Saturday, February 6, 2021 at 2:43:43 AM UTC-5, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Thu, 04 Feb 2021 22:55:46 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I use either sewing machine or clock oil for lubricating rotating bicycle parts. Constant viscosity with temperature, doesn't stain my clothes, doesn't evaporate and turn to tar, and is fairly cheap. https://www.google.com/search?q=sewing+machine+oil+bicycle I have both the mineral oil versions and the synthetics. The synthetics do much better at high temperatures, which hopefully your bicycle will never see. Otherwise, both types seem about the same. I use these because I have a fairly good supply of these oils from other projects, and I haven't had any problems using them. Unfortunately, I've never used these oils on a derailleur pantograph and have no idea what might happen. I believe it was a derailleur that a sag team once loosened up with sun-tan oil. The rider was told to clean it off and use real oil when he got home, since we suspected that prolonged exposure to air would turn sun-tan oil into varnish. That was during a September Century, so that was an era ago. -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ That kind of improv reminds me of the 2009 tour of california. The race suffered through a particularly cold and rainy winter, and a lot of riders had a hard time managing layers. Brad White of team Ouch-Maxxis went so far as to buy some bright yellow diswashing gloves to keep his hands dry, and warm https://www.shutterstock.com/editori...-2009-7831798l |
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