#51
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My CF Adventure
On Mar 12, 5:20 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 12, 11:36 am, Duane Hébert wrote: On 03/12/2013 02:26 PM, Jay Beattie wrote: On Mar 12, 10:54 am, Lou Holtman wrote: On 2013-03-11 20:09:19 +0000, Jay Beattie said: So, my friend is trying to sell his Specialized Roubaix, and he set me up on the bike for a ride last Saturday. Not withstanding my status as former Cat 3 and Masters pack-filler and renowned commuter, I had never ridden a CF bike more than a few hundred yards. This was going to be something new and exciting for me. After not enough fussing getting the seat height and tilt right, we took off for a hilly ride of 50-60 miles -- wow, the frame was stiff through the BB and, most noticeably, through the front end -- substantially stiffer than my Cannondale warranty-replacement CAAD 9. The magical dampening of CF was also evident, sort of. It clipped the low amplitude, high frequency vibration that I associate with a dry chain or slightly rough pavement -- the sort of thing you might pick up through your shoes. Significant pavement discontinuities were probably more pronounced on the Roubaix than on my CAAD 9, and the the sound of a popped rock hitting the DT made me think I broke the frame. It was an acoustically new adventure. But, the minor dampening plus the longish chain stays and stiff front end gave the bike the bike a very smooth, step on the gas feel on good pavement. Getting me to fit on this frame meant extending the CF seat post probably a foot -- and it didn't want to stay there. It kept slipping, and my friend was freaking out at the thought that I might over-torque the binder bolt and break the post. His pocket tool, however, was some weird piece of garbage (a tiny T-wrench) that wouldn't let me over-torque -- or even adequately torque -- anything. I probably stopped five or six times, and the post wouldn't stop slipping -- probably because it did not have enough magical CF paste on it. This sucked -- and small changes in seat post height worsened the saddle tilt problems. The post had a one-bolt saddle carriage mechanism -- so you loosen one bolt, and the whole tilt/fore-aft adjustment goes flaccid. F*** that! This is why I buy Thompson Elite posts with a two bolt system. You can Princess and the Pea them to your heart's content. We head to the first hill -- about a four mile climb with the first mile maxing out at 10-12 percent, and the bike was very responsive and fast-feeling, except the reach was too short, and climbing out of the saddle, I was sometimes hitting the bars with my knees -- and the position was odd to me because of the tall front end and relatively short TT. I'm used to being more over my front wheel. The steep parts felt fast, but when I sat down, I felt like I was riding a BMX bike because of the slipping post. That sucked, and so did the mis-positioned BG saddle. But I did get the sense that the bike was light(er) and faster than my Cannondale -- and more solid, which is a big deal since I am a large rider. It tracked exceptionally well descending. My friend was worried that I would over-torque the post, and I was getting a sore back, so we only rode that climb and one other for a total of 30-40 miles. Alas, on my way home, River City was running its annual sale, and I tried the same bike in a 64cm, which was nice -- post stayed up, more room in the cockpit, still too high in the front end, but flipping the stem would fix that. I almost impulsed purchased. I really do like the stiff feeling of the front end and BB. I decided to wait and do some more shopping, if any. Epilog -- I went out the next day on my CAAD 9. Ahhh, nothing like a bike that fits. The bike is less stiff -- not like an old Alan, but it does not have the same riding on a slightly padded rail feel as the Roubaix. This is not a huge difference, but noticeable. I have come to believe that all the hyperbole in the press reduces to minor differences, at least among similarly priced and purposed bikes. I did a lot of climbing on Sunday, and the Cannonodale's front end definitely felt less stiff. It also has a slight caster feel to it, which some might characterize as twitchiness -- but it tracks very well on fast descents. I just liked sitting and climbing on the Cannondale, which is something I didn't have a chance to do on the Roubaix, and I didn't feel like I was getting sapped of energy while sitting. It has a stiff BB. It's the out of the saddle efforts where it lacks somewhat. I might invest in a nice, stiff CF frame, but its not like I have to. -- Jay Beattie. Pretty useless to testride a bike that doesn't fit. It fit until the post slipped -- so I would get moments of fitting, although I could have spent more time on seat tilt and fore-aft. I did ride the same bike later that day in the 64cm size that did not have a slipping seat post, and my impressions were the same, although the larger bike had considerable rise to the stem, so the front end felt too high. The basic ride qualities, however, were the same. It's like driving a car with an uncomfortable seat. You still get a sense of the suspension, power, steering, etc. I think that the analogy doesn't quite work with a bike though. A good fit on the bike has a lot more to do with the steering, suspension and power than a good fit in a car seat. It's not an exact analogy, but in either case you can get a good sense of performance by stepping on the gas. Out of the saddle efforts on the Roubaix showed that it had an exceptionally rigid BB and front end. Solid traction indicated that it had adequately long stays. There was also no heel strike, which I can get on the short stays of my CAAD 9 with my big feet. It tracked well, and descending was precise, steering was good (although it required more input than my CAAD 9 -- which may be a good thing), and shock absorption seemed good -- but this is where bad fit limited my ability to really judge how good. I also could not get into a groove climbing in the saddle because of the slipping seat post and saddle position. I would like to go out and do some of the longer local climbs (most closed by snow now anyway) just to see how it feels after ten or twelve miles of climbing. I think it would be pretty good, but my sense is that it would only be better than the CAAD 9 because of lower weight since the Cannondale is pretty stiff through the BB. Then again, I could be surprised by the more upright riding position (if I stuck with that) and the stiffer front end. Climbing with a death grip can cause the front end to caster a little on the Cannondale, which usually means I have to gear down or get out of the saddle for a while anyway. That's just exhaustion. What I don't get from those reviews you posted is the amazing shock- absorbing effect. Bumps were bumps on 100 PSI 23mm tires. The Roubaix didn't get rid of the bumps or significant discontinuities in the road surface. It was more like letting 10-20psi out of my tires without the performance loss -- which seems worthwhile, but all the gushing about being "plush" etc. sort of escaped me. My cross bike with 35s is plush. Maybe after trying some other CF frames, I'll get the picture. There is an on-sale Cervelo R3 that I'm going to look at next weekend. Go, dog, go! |
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#52
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My CF Adventure
AND WHAT WOULD AN 'INORDINATE NUMBER' NUMBER ?
3 ? 17 ? 78 ? how many club members ? |
#53
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My CF Adventure
On Mar 16, 9:43 am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 3/16/2013 9:41 AM, Dan O wrote: On 3/16/2013 3:28 AM, SMS wrote: snip It's like Craftsman hand tools. They aren't actually very high quality, Sears is selling the warranty as much as anything., When the tools break the owner gets a replacement for free, and as with bicycles, the warranty replacement costs the manufacturer very little.. Really! The lifetime replacement warranty does no good (and is a little difficult to exercise) when the oil pan is off and the ratchet breaks. (True story.) Use Snap-on. Never had one break and I think that they still have the same warranty. Would have to get my hands on them first. I have exactly one (1) Snap-on - a phillips screwdriver - "inherited" it (honest, it just wound up in my toolbox somehow) from AMA National #22 (a friend - and I don't drop that about every Tom, Dick and Hairy like some folks) - so, sentimental value as *well* as hand tool ecstasy. |
#54
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My CF Adventure
On 03/16/2013 11:08 AM, Dan O wrote:
I have exactly one (1) Snap-on - a phillips screwdriver - "inherited" it (honest, it just wound up in my toolbox somehow) from AMA National #22 (a friend - and I don't drop that about every Tom, Dick and Hairy like some folks) - so, sentimental value as *well* as hand tool ecstasy. One difference with Craftsman tools is that you bring the broken tool in and get a warranty replacement, they don't ask for receipts and they don't ask if you're the original owner. With bicycle frames the warranty is only for the original owner. If the shop you bought the bicycle at is gone then good luck finding another shop to go to bat for you. One of my Facebook friends, a second cousin, is on her third CF replacement frame, but she's not broken any forks AFAIK. With a CF frame and fork you need to be extremely careful as to how you carry the bicycle on a vehicle or repair it since you can't clamp the frame, and you don't want to use a fork mount rack even if the dropouts are aluminum. |
#55
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My CF Adventure
On 03/16/2013 12:59 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? A custom steel frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g. Vanilla here in PDX. Steel frames have become a boutique item, custom made by hand, individually. The few remaining mass produced steel frames aren't that expensive. Like I said, I'm riding on the third (?) replacement for a Cannondale 2.8 I purchased over 20 years ago. Yes, I had to go through short periods of being without a "fast bike" while waiting for a warranty replacement, but I also ended up with a newer and better frame. You break a steel frame, braze it up, pay for the paint -- you're out of pocket for paint $100 (assuming you can do your own brazing -- more if not) and you have the same old frame. I like getting new frames periodically, particularly if I don't have to pay for them. That's fine. Just realize that unlike in the days of steel, the "lifetime warranty" isn't because the frame is so great that it will last for 50 years, it's to make buyers feel confident that when the frame finally does break that they won't have to pay for the replacement. With CF, it's too easy to damage the frame in a way that causes it to fail, and then the warranty is void. |
#56
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My CF Adventure
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 13:09:19 -0700 (PDT), in rec.bicycles.tech Jay
Beattie wrote: So, my friend is trying to sell his Specialized Roubaix, and he set me up on the bike for a ride last Saturday. Yeah... my friend is queer; he set me up for a ride, too (haha) ... They say that it only hurts at first, and, after that, you like it. They tell me to try it before I knock it... I think I'll pass because it doesn't sound like much fun to me. Jones |
#57
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My CF Adventure
On Mar 16, 3:59*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? *A custom steel frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g. Vanilla here in PDX. *Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K. Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. *I was quoted well under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain -- and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year. And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting time for a custom Vanilla. *I would also end up with a lighter, stiffer and better tuned frame. *You just can't customize steel in the same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum. Hmm. I think that last sentence is precisely backwards. What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes with specially shaped tubes. But to me, "custom" means built to fit the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel excels, at least within its range of capabilities. A smart guy with an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to fit almost any person and almost any intended application. IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry 100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have to be steel. If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due to tooling costs. It's true that fine custom steel frames are currently expensive. I don't think custom steel has to be as expensive as it is, though. I think the prices are driven partly by the trendiness (in certain quarters) and by the tendency to make these bikes as objets d'art. By keeping fancy lugwork to a minimum (or using MIG welding) and doing only as much finishing as needed for good appearance at ten feet, I think a good steel frame could be sold for much less than $1000. Even with American labor. It's true it wouldn't be as light and stiff as a modern aluminum or CF bike. But it could be less fragile, and be actually "custom" as well, for those with unusual needs. - Frank Krygowski |
#58
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My CF Adventure
On Mar 16, 9:15 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:59 pm, Jay Beattie wrote: So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? A custom steel frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g. Vanilla here in PDX. Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K. Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. I was quoted well under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain -- and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year. And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting time for a custom Vanilla. I would also end up with a lighter, stiffer and better tuned frame. You just can't customize steel in the same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum. Hmm. I think that last sentence is precisely backwards. What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes with specially shaped tubes. But to me, "custom" means built to fit the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel excels, at least within its range of capabilities. A smart guy with an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to fit almost any person and almost any intended application. IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry 100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have to be steel. If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due to tooling costs. I worked for a manufacturer of CFRP orthoses. Every single piece out the door *absolutely* and finely custom fitted to order. snip |
#59
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My CF Adventure
On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 21:15:54 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote: On Mar 16, 3:59*pm, Jay Beattie wrote: So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? *A custom steel frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g. Vanilla here in PDX. *Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K. Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. *I was quoted well under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain -- and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year. And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting time for a custom Vanilla. *I would also end up with a lighter, stiffer and better tuned frame. *You just can't customize steel in the same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum. Hmm. I think that last sentence is precisely backwards. What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes with specially shaped tubes. But to me, "custom" means built to fit the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel excels, at least within its range of capabilities. A smart guy with an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to fit almost any person and almost any intended application. IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry 100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have to be steel. If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due to tooling costs. It's true that fine custom steel frames are currently expensive. I don't think custom steel has to be as expensive as it is, though. I think the prices are driven partly by the trendiness (in certain quarters) and by the tendency to make these bikes as objets d'art. By keeping fancy lugwork to a minimum (or using MIG welding) and doing only as much finishing as needed for good appearance at ten feet, I think a good steel frame could be sold for much less than $1000. Even with American labor. It's true it wouldn't be as light and stiff as a modern aluminum or CF bike. But it could be less fragile, and be actually "custom" as well, for those with unusual needs. - Frank Krygowski The cost of a Columbus SL set of tubes, lugs, fork crown, etc necessary to built a light steel frame, with shipping from England to Thailand is 267.43 British Pounds. Consumables Silver and bronze rod, acetylene and oxygen perhaps 50 dollars and labor for 3 - 5 days. Powder coating is US$ 33.00 or US$ 40.00 with clear coating. This does not include depreciation costs for shop equipment, if any. -- Cheers, John B. |
#60
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My CF Adventure
On Mar 17, 2:59*am, Dan O wrote:
On Mar 16, 9:15 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Mar 16, 3:59 pm, Jay Beattie wrote: So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? *A custom steel frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g. Vanilla here in PDX. *Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K. Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. *I was quoted well under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain -- and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year. And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting time for a custom Vanilla. *I would also end up with a lighter, stiffer and better tuned frame. *You just can't customize steel in the same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum. Hmm. *I think that last sentence is precisely backwards. What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes with specially shaped tubes. *But to me, "custom" means built to fit the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel excels, at least within its range of capabilities. *A smart guy with an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to fit almost any person and almost any intended application. IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry 100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have to be steel. *If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due to tooling costs. I worked for a manufacturer of CFRP orthoses. *Every single piece out the door *absolutely* and finely custom fitted to order. Of course that's possible. It would also have been possible to make them out of hydroformed (or otherwise formed) aluminum. But at what cost per unit? What did those orthoses cost, and how did their shapes' complexity and precision compare with that of a typical bike frame? My bet is the shapes were much simpler, and still very expensive. - Frank Krygowski |
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