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#51
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Octalink ES25 replacement?
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 08:29:39 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 7:04:10 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-13 17:38, John B. wrote: On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 09:31:09 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-13 01:07, John B. wrote: On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 07:03:54 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-11 19:59, John B. wrote: On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:59:50 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-11 16:52, John B. wrote: On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:00:32 -0700, Joerg wrote: The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink. How long do you guys let that go before replacing? Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg? I see Octalink bottom brackets for sale for four British pounds :-) http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/c...t/rp-prod34653 About $5.00. I saw that as well. It's a clearance item in an odd diameter. $6.99 when clicking the link in the US. I guess in new-speak that's called "target group pricing" or something similar :-) I believe in the grocery store marketing it is called a "loss Leader". I meant different prices for different regions or people. One big player recently got into trouble for that which netted them a not-so-honorary mention in the Wall Street Journal. Why ever not different prices for different people. My bike shop certainly does it. If you come in they will charge you one price. If I come in they charge me 15% less. My guess is that it is not uncommon. Quantity discounts or loyal-customer rebates at a local store are ok. Often people get 10% of at the LBS if they bought their bike there. However, if an online retailer changes pricing on people depending on what their zip code is or a bank sets loan rates based on the color of one's skin that is a slippery slope. Why? It is almost a normal practice and to my personal experience is done just about everywhere I've been. In Maine the "summer folks" are charged more then a "native", in fact this was so common that the term "summer rate" was commonly used when I lived there. In every Asian country I've lived in a "white skinned" foreigner was either charged a higher price or not given as large a discount as a native. It is probably not politically correct (in the U.S.) to say "white skinned" although that is a commonly heard description in most Asian countries :-( You have probably been away from the US too long. Discrimination based on race, gender, ethnicity and so on is a punishable offense here. In Phuket, Thailand the Bar Girls even have a "High Season" rate and a "Low Season" rate. High Season is of course, when the tourists flock in. Setting prices higher or lower is fine as long as that isn't done based on the looks of who is coming in. In fact, if we go to an open market, where bargaining is the norm, my wife will always be quoted a cheaper price then I would. (foreigners are all rich!) That is normal. We even had that where I lived in the Netherlands. If you spoke the language with a local accent (I did) you have an easier time negotiating a good deal for food items at the open air market. [...] I also see an ES300 for $16.68 and there are also Shimano Dura-Ace Octalink BB's and although I don't know whether they fit, Dura-Ace is usually considered as very high quality. It may be time to write to Shimano, hoping they'll answer. To me this flurry of model numbers is confusing and not all are 100% compatible. The cranks have to fit and the chain line should remain roughly the same. Take it to a good bike shop :-) I have a shop in Bangkok and another in Phuket where they seem to know what they're doing.... as long as I know enough to ask the right questions, that is. I was hoping that someone had the same issue with paltry ES25 lifetime and could tell me "Here, buy that one, lasts a lot longer" (and where it fits well). [...] I wonder how popular the Octalink pedals were? I can't remember ever seeing one on the road, or maybe I didn't look :-) Perhaps they weren't that common that people talk about them. AFAICT they were on all the bikes I looked at in early 2014. What do bikes in the $1k range have in Thailand? Square taper is a good system but I have only seen that on older bikes here like on my 1982 road bike. I don't know why they went to Octalink. Maybe it saves half a few hundred milligrams. To be honest I don't pay as close attention to new bikes as I might. Partly, I suppose, because I have three road bikes and a "knock around" bike, all of which, well with the exception of one road bike that I built myself, are more then ten years old, one of the road bikes may be from the 1970's, and I don't lust after something just because it is new. But honestly, I can't ever remember seeing either a bike with an octalink crank or for that matter any octalink parts in shops. Which of course may only mean that I didn't have my eyes open that day :-) You can't see it unless you have the clerk pull the spec sheet or take a crank off. But as for why they were made, I suspect that like many of the New! Innovative! Wonderful! things that appear on the market they were built simply to be New! Innovative! and Wonderful! Are the modern press in BB bearings an actual improvement? Most definitely not. ... Or are they just "same old" but in a new style "that we can announce as an improvement and charge more money for"? They are cheap alright but, as unfortunately usual for bike parts, have a very paltry service life. For the same money my MTB buddy bought a massive front wheel bearing assembly for his Chevy Express van and they last hundreds of thousands of miles. Not just 5000. Because you buy **** and expect it to last forever. Octalink was abandoned a decade ago and sucked when it was current production -- as did ISIS and the small bearing BBs with OS spindles. Quit whining and buy a 105 compact crank with a $16 external bearing BB. Your bike has no historical value and maintaining a bad standard will just bring you back in one or two years with the same complaints -- and the endless comparisons to the longevity of 25lb car parts. -- Jay Beattie AND! There are a number of you tube films showing how to replace the actual bearings in those $16 external bearings for a dollar or so. -- Cheers, John B. |
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#53
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Octalink ES25 replacement?
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:31:38 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2017-08-14 10:17, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/14/2017 12:06 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 08:51, wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: Quit whining and buy a 105 compact crank with a $16 external bearing BB. Your bike has no historical value and maintaining a bad standard will just bring you back in one or two years with the same complaints -- and the endless comparisons to the longevity of 25lb car parts. Well I have to agree with your idea if not your attitude. When buying a $1k mainstream bicycle I expect things to last. People with external bearings out here fare no better as their BBs also develop creaks and bearing play after a few thousand miles. It's similar with road bikes. A friend only buys high-class hubs costing north of $200 a pop. They don't last longer than mine. You need to move out of that Bermuda-Triangle-hell-hole where everything breaks, nothing works, everything is dangerous and bicyclists can barely survive. If you read more carefully, as suggested often, you'd have noticed that it isn't broken but simply _worn_ out. But even a casual look at available You Tube films shows a guy successfully rebuilding a cartridge BB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lar7mIMmTRE And another replacing the O.B. model's bearings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hklHC2ae04g My mother used to say, when I was whining about something, "The Good Lord helps those who help themselves". -- Cheers, John B. |
#54
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Octalink ES25 replacement?
On 2017-08-14 19:03, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:31:38 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 10:17, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/14/2017 12:06 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-14 08:51, wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 8:29:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: Quit whining and buy a 105 compact crank with a $16 external bearing BB. Your bike has no historical value and maintaining a bad standard will just bring you back in one or two years with the same complaints -- and the endless comparisons to the longevity of 25lb car parts. Well I have to agree with your idea if not your attitude. When buying a $1k mainstream bicycle I expect things to last. People with external bearings out here fare no better as their BBs also develop creaks and bearing play after a few thousand miles. It's similar with road bikes. A friend only buys high-class hubs costing north of $200 a pop. They don't last longer than mine. You need to move out of that Bermuda-Triangle-hell-hole where everything breaks, nothing works, everything is dangerous and bicyclists can barely survive. If you read more carefully, as suggested often, you'd have noticed that it isn't broken but simply _worn_ out. But even a casual look at available You Tube films shows a guy successfully rebuilding a cartridge BB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lar7mIMmTRE It's a square taper BB. And another replacing the O.B. model's bearings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hklHC2ae04g That one would not fit my MTB. My mother used to say, when I was whining about something, "The Good Lord helps those who help themselves". I have seen such videos when looking for a replacement for my road bike. As I have mentioned in this thread one of the objectives is not to have that dreaded plastic left cup anymore. Plastic has IMHO no place in a high-stress area on a bicycle. For the road bike I could replace with UN-55. It has an aluminum left cup which isn't ideal but at least not plastic. So it'll hopefully last longer than 5k miles. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#55
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Octalink ES25 replacement?
On 2017-08-14 18:37, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 07:04:07 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-13 17:38, John B. wrote: On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 09:31:09 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-13 01:07, John B. wrote: On Sat, 12 Aug 2017 07:03:54 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-11 19:59, John B. wrote: On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:59:50 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-11 16:52, John B. wrote: On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:00:32 -0700, Joerg wrote: The BB on my MTB makes a ticking sound when warmed up, sounds similar to a hot car engine after it is turned off. It has also develoved an ever so slight play, just a few mils. It is an Shimano ES25 Octalink. How long do you guys let that go before replacing? Can anyone recommend a better quality BB for this that lasts longer than 5k miles and doesn't cost an arm and a leg? I see Octalink bottom brackets for sale for four British pounds :-) http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/c...t/rp-prod34653 About $5.00. I saw that as well. It's a clearance item in an odd diameter. $6.99 when clicking the link in the US. I guess in new-speak that's called "target group pricing" or something similar :-) I believe in the grocery store marketing it is called a "loss Leader". I meant different prices for different regions or people. One big player recently got into trouble for that which netted them a not-so-honorary mention in the Wall Street Journal. Why ever not different prices for different people. My bike shop certainly does it. If you come in they will charge you one price. If I come in they charge me 15% less. My guess is that it is not uncommon. Quantity discounts or loyal-customer rebates at a local store are ok. Often people get 10% of at the LBS if they bought their bike there. However, if an online retailer changes pricing on people depending on what their zip code is or a bank sets loan rates based on the color of one's skin that is a slippery slope. Why? It is almost a normal practice and to my personal experience is done just about everywhere I've been. In Maine the "summer folks" are charged more then a "native", in fact this was so common that the term "summer rate" was commonly used when I lived there. In every Asian country I've lived in a "white skinned" foreigner was either charged a higher price or not given as large a discount as a native. It is probably not politically correct (in the U.S.) to say "white skinned" although that is a commonly heard description in most Asian countries :-( You have probably been away from the US too long. Discrimination based on race, gender, ethnicity and so on is a punishable offense here. Thank the Lord I don't live in the U.S. any more. A place where people can't say what they think. In Phuket, Thailand the Bar Girls even have a "High Season" rate and a "Low Season" rate. High Season is of course, when the tourists flock in. Setting prices higher or lower is fine as long as that isn't done based on the looks of who is coming in. I can assure you that in just about every Asian country I have lived in, and that is six of them, you are treated by what you look like. In fact in some of the countries you are treated not only by how you look but also by what you sound like. But why ever not? Do you think that humans aren't clannish? My family against your family, my village against your village and my nation against your nation, not to mention my god against your god, seems to have been the determining factor in human relationships through out history and is still true today. Is it really better to be required by law to smile and say, "Yes Sir" and "No Sir" while all the time thinking "you miserable no good *whatever*" way down deep inside? Required by law to be a liar? In fact, if we go to an open market, where bargaining is the norm, my wife will always be quoted a cheaper price then I would. (foreigners are all rich!) That is normal. We even had that where I lived in the Netherlands. If you spoke the language with a local accent (I did) you have an easier time negotiating a good deal for food items at the open air market. [...] I also see an ES300 for $16.68 and there are also Shimano Dura-Ace Octalink BB's and although I don't know whether they fit, Dura-Ace is usually considered as very high quality. It may be time to write to Shimano, hoping they'll answer. To me this flurry of model numbers is confusing and not all are 100% compatible. The cranks have to fit and the chain line should remain roughly the same. Take it to a good bike shop :-) I have a shop in Bangkok and another in Phuket where they seem to know what they're doing.... as long as I know enough to ask the right questions, that is. I was hoping that someone had the same issue with paltry ES25 lifetime and could tell me "Here, buy that one, lasts a lot longer" (and where it fits well). [...] I wonder how popular the Octalink pedals were? I can't remember ever seeing one on the road, or maybe I didn't look :-) Perhaps they weren't that common that people talk about them. AFAICT they were on all the bikes I looked at in early 2014. What do bikes in the $1k range have in Thailand? Square taper is a good system but I have only seen that on older bikes here like on my 1982 road bike. I don't know why they went to Octalink. Maybe it saves half a few hundred milligrams. To be honest I don't pay as close attention to new bikes as I might. Partly, I suppose, because I have three road bikes and a "knock around" bike, all of which, well with the exception of one road bike that I built myself, are more then ten years old, one of the road bikes may be from the 1970's, and I don't lust after something just because it is new. But honestly, I can't ever remember seeing either a bike with an octalink crank or for that matter any octalink parts in shops. Which of course may only mean that I didn't have my eyes open that day :-) You can't see it unless you have the clerk pull the spec sheet or take a crank off. But as for why they were made, I suspect that like many of the New! Innovative! Wonderful! things that appear on the market they were built simply to be New! Innovative! and Wonderful! Are the modern press in BB bearings an actual improvement? Most definitely not. However they are much cheaper to manufacture :-) ... Or are they just "same old" but in a new style "that we can announce as an improvement and charge more money for"? They are cheap alright but, as unfortunately usual for bike parts, have a very paltry service life. For the same money my MTB buddy bought a massive front wheel bearing assembly for his Chevy Express van and they last hundreds of thousands of miles. Not just 5000. That is a non sensible response. A front hub assembly for a Chevy weighs in the neighborhood of 20 lbs... nearly as much as my entire bicycle. Gimmee a BB that weighs a pound and lasts forever. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#56
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Octalink ES25 replacement?
On 2017-08-14 18:38, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 07:09:09 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-13 17:44, John B. wrote: On Sun, 13 Aug 2017 07:33:21 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-08-13 07:13, David Scheidt wrote: John B. wrote: :I can still get 9 speed stuff here, in fact you can still buy 7 speed :stuff although it is the low end Shimano models. I see a lot of new :low end bikes with 7 speed derailers and often twist grip shifters. Seven speed stuff is still available to OEMS (I don't know how much is available to someone like AMuzi) because it's cheap. Freewheels, not freehubs, and super low-end everything. All the tooling is paid for years ago, and they crank it out for the $100 bike market. Its going to be around for a while, because it's about as complicated as can be made to work on bikes put together by nimwits. (A cow-orker bought one from somewhere that had the fork on backwards.) Not just for OEMs. I bought a 7-speed cassette for my road bike on Amazon. When my last UG freehub crunched out I bought a 7-speed HG freehub body, also via Amazon. You can also buy shifters and whatever else you might need, not just from Shimano: https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Acera.../dp/B003ZM9RX6 https://www.amazon.com/Shimano-Speed.../dp/B01A5930R0 https://www.amazon.com/SRAM-Bicycle-.../dp/B000C15HS2 John, my hat goes off. 110km round trip at your age is great. I don't know any local guy above 80 who'd even as much as think about doing that. Well, I guess I ought to take center stage :-) But that was 55Km. for the round trip "out and back". Still great. My usual rides aren't much longer than that, around 65km. As you said in the other post keeping at it is the trick. That is how my great grandpa made it to almost 103 in good health. He walked miles and miles every day though his last motorcycle ride was at 95. I think it is the secret to most everything. Just keep going :-) He said the same thing about those big stinking stogies he regularly lit and I guess that's not such a good thing. It hasn't killed him but it has killed many others I knew. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#57
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Octalink ES25 replacement?
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings. There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width or they are simply wider. They do not start creaking after a short time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under load. |
#58
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Octalink ES25 replacement?
On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote:
On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings. There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width or they are simply wider. ... Right now there is less than 0.020" clearance so this would require buying new cranks and throwing out the current ones I have that are still good (less a tooth here and there but who cares). I'd also have to try my best to calculate the chain line before ordering, often from scarce data. ... They do not start creaking after a short time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under load. I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have helped replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These weren't much bigger and they are exposed to way more load and hammering. Fully loaded bike, rider, tent, food, booze, clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over rutted trails at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k miles. They weren't even shot, it was just PM. If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't plastic I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe I am out of luck for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model year. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#59
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Octalink ES25 replacement?
On 2017-08-15 13:24, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings. There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width or they are simply wider. ... Right now there is less than 0.020" clearance so this would require buying new cranks and throwing out the current ones I have that are still good (less a tooth here and there but who cares). I'd also have to try my best to calculate the chain line before ordering, often from scarce data. ... They do not start creaking after a short time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under load. I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have helped replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These weren't much bigger and they are exposed to way more load and hammering. Fully loaded bike, rider, tent, food, booze, clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over rutted trails at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k miles. They weren't even shot, it was just PM. If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't plastic I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe I am out of luck for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model year. I meant 2013, of course :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#60
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Octalink ES25 replacement?
On 8/15/2017 3:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-15 08:29, wrote: On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: There is no space down there on the MTB for outboard bearings. There most certainly is. The cranks are recessed for the added width or they are simply wider. ... Right now there is less than 0.020" clearance so this would require buying new cranks and throwing out the current ones I have that are still good (less a tooth here and there but who cares). I'd also have to try my best to calculate the chain line before ordering, often from scarce data. ... They do not start creaking after a short time as was stated and they have lower rotational friction under load. I understand that. What I don't understand is this: I have helped replace wheel bearings on offroad motorcycles. These weren't much bigger and they are exposed to way more load and hammering. Fully loaded bike, rider, tent, food, booze, clothes, air mattress and so on, blasting over rutted trails at 40mph or more. Those bearings lasted north of 50k miles. They weren't even shot, it was just PM. If there just was an ES25 replacement where the left cup isn't plastic I'd be happy. For my 1982 road bike there was but maybe I am out of luck for the MTB even though it's a 2103 model year. You misunderstood Tom and probably most of our comments recently. A crank for square taper has a set of matching BB options. A spline crank has a different set of options. One of the many outboard systems has a crank/spindle with matching bearing/bearing cup protocols. Each system has recommended parts and then crappier cheaper aftermarket alternatives and then again pricier better quality options as well. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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