#31
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Flat repair
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#33
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Flat repair
On 8/11/2018 12:52 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 20:13:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 8/10/2018 6:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 15:36:07 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 12:33:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/10/2018 3:09 PM, David Scheidt wrote: Andy wrote: :I sanded the tube, applied the patch and clamped it in a vise for an hour. Did you let the glue dry? the hexane (or whatever they use these days) is just a solvent. the active part of the glue is the rubber and vulcanizing activator. then put the patch on, and press firm (the edge of a patch kit box works great.). Then put the tube to use. Here's my method: First, I seldom patch a tube at the side of the road. Instead I just change tubes, using the spare tube I always have with the bike. I do check carefully by feel and visually to be sure the glass, wire or whatever is not still sticking into the tire. Oh, and I make sure the punctured tube is tossed sloppily into my handlebar bag so I don't forget to deal with it at home. At home, I inflate the tube and find the leak, making sure there isn't more than one. I mark its position X with chalk. I clamp a thick dowel (3/4" diameter or so) so it's protruding from my bench vise. This is my work surface. I lay the X directly on top. I take my sanding block (used for wood work) and sand the area to be patched. It's way easier than fiddling with the tiny sandpaper in a patch kit, and the dowel work surface makes it easy to sand well. I apply the patch glue, spreading it thin, then wait maybe five minutes for it to dry. I peel the backing foil off the patch and carefully stick it in place. Then I take another dowel, hold it right angles to the one in the vise, and roll it over the patch to apply pressure, starting in the patch's center and working toward the outside. It's like rolling cookie dough - although I've never rolled cookie dough. This makes it easy to apply quite a bit of force on a small area (the contact point between two perpendicular cylinders) and I think helps make the bond very strong. Then I make sure all the air is out of the tube so it's completely flat. I fold it up, put a rubber band around it and put it back in my bike bag. For me, the main thing is it's a lot easier to do this in my basement where I have all the tools immediately ready. And the dowel in the vise really is a much easier work surface than a flat surface. Here's my technique -- carry a couple of spares and have boat loads of patched and new tubes at home. Get numerous flats and accumulate a pile of un-repaired tubes. Then, (1) select proper beer; go to man cave and (2) select proper DVD and or BluRay movie, (3) start patching. I use a Sharpie to mark, and I just lay the tube flat and sand. You can apply glue to two or three at a time, depending on chair-back hanging space. Number one dries as you're spreading glue on three, etc. Apply patches like you say, but I just put the tube back on flat surface (I use a plastic cutting board) and press down with plastic tire iron. You could use your finger nail. When the pile is done, I pump them all up and let them sit overnight. There are always two or three that go flat because of super small holes, and then I get out the bucket of water and do those, and then I roll them all up like you say. Sanding is the important part, IMO. Some tube brands have really nasty mold release or some other finish that you have to get through for a good bond. I have a patch limit where I just throw the tube away. Nothing set. If I say, "man there are a lot of patches on that tube," then I just throw it away. I've gotten my money out of it. I'll keep patching if it has sentimental value or its some weird size that I need. -- Jay Beattie. A while ago I believe that we discussed patching tubes in detail. At the time I think I remember someone writing that they simply wiped the tube off with some chemical and slapped on the patch. No sanding. I remember thinking that I should "get some of that stuff" but like many plans it came a crupper and I even forgot the incident until this thread started. Anyone remember the details and did the scheme actually work. I hate sanding tubes and would gladly go to some lengths to avoid it. Tech Products, a standard supplier to the auto/motorcycle tire sold 'Tech Patch Buffer' solution which was trichlorethane? trichlorethylene? I can't recall. Worked well to clean and prep a patchable surface. Since we have auto brake wash (mostly acetone and alcohol) I use that now. I assume that "auto brake wash" is a different product then "brake cleaner" which, here, is a pretty aggressive cleaning liquid. I've got a large spray can of brake cleaner, and another of carburetor cleaner. Since I'll never use them up working on the car, I'd be willing to try them. - Frank Krygowski |
#34
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Flat repair
wrote:
On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 1:18:40 PM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 22:56:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 1:07:58 AM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 15:36:07 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 12:33:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/10/2018 3:09 PM, David Scheidt wrote: Andy wrote: :I sanded the tube, applied the patch and clamped it in a vise for an hour. Did you let the glue dry? the hexane (or whatever they use these days) is just a solvent. the active part of the glue is the rubber and vulcanizing activator. then put the patch on, and press firm (the edge of a patch kit box works great.). Then put the tube to use. Here's my method: First, I seldom patch a tube at the side of the road. Instead I just change tubes, using the spare tube I always have with the bike. I do check carefully by feel and visually to be sure the glass, wire or whatever is not still sticking into the tire. Oh, and I make sure the punctured tube is tossed sloppily into my handlebar bag so I don't forget to deal with it at home. At home, I inflate the tube and find the leak, making sure there isn't more than one. I mark its position X with chalk. I clamp a thick dowel (3/4" diameter or so) so it's protruding from my bench vise. This is my work surface. I lay the X directly on top. I take my sanding block (used for wood work) and sand the area to be patched. It's way easier than fiddling with the tiny sandpaper in a patch kit, and the dowel work surface makes it easy to sand well. I apply the patch glue, spreading it thin, then wait maybe five minutes for it to dry. I peel the backing foil off the patch and carefully stick it in place. Then I take another dowel, hold it right angles to the one in the vise, and roll it over the patch to apply pressure, starting in the patch's center and working toward the outside. It's like rolling cookie dough - although I've never rolled cookie dough. This makes it easy to apply quite a bit of force on a small area (the contact point between two perpendicular cylinders) and I think helps make the bond very strong. Then I make sure all the air is out of the tube so it's completely flat. I fold it up, put a rubber band around it and put it back in my bike bag. For me, the main thing is it's a lot easier to do this in my basement where I have all the tools immediately ready. And the dowel in the vise really is a much easier work surface than a flat surface. Here's my technique -- carry a couple of spares and have boat loads of patched and new tubes at home. Get numerous flats and accumulate a pile of un-repaired tubes. Then, (1) select proper beer; go to man cave and (2) select proper DVD and or BluRay movie, (3) start patching. I use a Sharpie to mark, and I just lay the tube flat and sand. You can apply glue to two or three at a time, depending on chair-back hanging space. Number one dries as you're spreading glue on three, etc. Apply patches like you say, but I just put the tube back on flat surface (I use a plastic cutting board) and press down with plastic tire iron. You could use your finger nail. When the pile is done, I pump them all up and let them sit overnight. There are always two or three that go flat because of super small holes, and then I get out the bucket of water and do those, and then I roll them all up like you say. Sanding is the important part, IMO. Some tube brands have really nasty mold release or some other finish that you have to get through for a good bond. I have a patch limit where I just throw the tube away. Nothing set. If I say, "man there are a lot of patches on that tube," then I just throw it away. I've gotten my money out of it. I'll keep patching if it has sentimental value or its some weird size that I need. -- Jay Beattie. A while ago I believe that we discussed patching tubes in detail. At the time I think I remember someone writing that they simply wiped the tube off with some chemical and slapped on the patch. No sanding. I remember thinking that I should "get some of that stuff" but like many plans it came a crupper and I even forgot the incident until this thread started. Anyone remember the details and did the scheme actually work. I hate sanding tubes and would gladly go to some lengths to avoid it. It was me. I never sand unless I need to patch a flat along the road which is almost never. I use what we call in the Netherlands 'wasbenzine'. Removes the mould release nicely and you get a nice dull black spot. It takes just seconds and I get 100% succes rate. Lou Thanks for that.... now to try and figure out what "wasbenzine" is :-) Given that "benzene" means many different in different places that may be a problem :-) Form Wikipedia: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasbenzine In Dutch for applications (toepassingen): Schoonmaken van binnenband (bijvoorbeeld fiets) alvorens solutie (lijm) aan te brengen; dit werkt beter dan schuren omdat eventueel vuil wordt opgelost en afgevoerd en niet wordt uitgesmeerd translation; for cleaning inner tube (ie bicycle) before applying the cement (glue); this works better than sanding because dirt is disolved and removed instead of smeared out. I agree with that. Lou From the same Wikipedia article, "met 5 tot 15 koolstofatomen volgens de formule CnH2n+2, bijvoorbeeld C7H16". So it sounds like n-heptane would be the English equivalent. |
#35
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Flat repair
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 12:06:23 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote: On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:36:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 20:13:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote: This seems to be the new version in our bleak no-CFC world: https://techtirerepairs.com/rubber-cleaners/ http://apps.globalmsdslibrary.com/admin/pdf_service.php?target=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws. com%2Fcompliance-plus-production-documents%2Fproduction%2Fmsds_scans_s53%2F179375_4 577c3a68954e30a4dd1dfe0f736b696.pdf Light Aliphatic Naphtha 59.5 - 72% N-Heptane 17 - 27% Propane 7 - 10% Isobutane 3 - 5% I assume that the Propane and Isobutane are "propellants" as they both are in their gaseous form at normal temperatures. Propane @ -42C and Isobutane at -11.7C. I don't know what the combination of those gases are called. They're a common propellant used in spray cans and possibly a waste gas produced by petroleum distillation or cracking to produce naphtha. I could look it up, but not now. The active ingredient is the naphtha, which is one of the few organic solvents that are not currently banned. There are many forms, one of which is common Coleman camp fuel or "white-gas". As long as the solvent doesn't leave any oil residue behind, it can be used to clean rubber. What naphtha will not clean is dirt, which methinks is best removed first with water. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#36
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Flat repair
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 05:03:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
Form Wikipedia: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasbenzine In Dutch for applications (toepassingen): Schoonmaken van binnenband (bijvoorbeeld fiets) alvorens solutie (lijm) aan te brengen; dit werkt beter dan schuren omdat eventueel vuil wordt opgelost en afgevoerd en niet wordt uitgesmeerd translation; for cleaning inner tube (ie bicycle) before applying the cement (glue); this works better than sanding because dirt is disolved and removed instead of smeared out. I agree with that. Lou Dirt is mostly minerals and does not dissolve. Put some dirt in a beaker of water, shake well, let settle and see what's left. It's probably the same dirt you put into the beaker. My guess(tm) is that Wasbenzine is just water and an organic solvent mix. The water breaks loose the dirt, while the solvent removes any oils and mold release. The mold release used with rubber is probably silicone based, which according to Wikipedia, might be water soluble: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Release_agent#Rubber -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#37
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Flat repair
On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 6:37:57 PM UTC+2, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 05:03:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Form Wikipedia: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasbenzine In Dutch for applications (toepassingen): Schoonmaken van binnenband (bijvoorbeeld fiets) alvorens solutie (lijm) aan te brengen; dit werkt beter dan schuren omdat eventueel vuil wordt opgelost en afgevoerd en niet wordt uitgesmeerd translation; for cleaning inner tube (ie bicycle) before applying the cement (glue); this works better than sanding because dirt is disolved and removed instead of smeared out. I agree with that. Lou Dirt is mostly minerals and does not dissolve. Put some dirt in a beaker of water, shake well, let settle and see what's left. It's probably the same dirt you put into the beaker. My guess(tm) is that Wasbenzine is just water and an organic solvent mix. The water breaks loose the dirt, while the solvent removes any oils and mold release. The mold release used with rubber is probably silicone based, which according to Wikipedia, might be water soluble: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Release_agent#Rubber -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 I doubt there is water in 'wasbenzine'. It is a degreaser and very volatile. I patched a pinch flat from last Sunday and took some pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/KgRuRugg547GBJMn9 It took about 10 minutes total. While waiting I took the laundry out OF the dryer ;-) Lou |
#38
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Flat repair
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 09:29:26 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 12:06:23 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:36:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 20:13:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote: This seems to be the new version in our bleak no-CFC world: https://techtirerepairs.com/rubber-cleaners/ http://apps.globalmsdslibrary.com/admin/pdf_service.php?target=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws. com%2Fcompliance-plus-production-documents%2Fproduction%2Fmsds_scans_s53%2F179375_4 577c3a68954e30a4dd1dfe0f736b696.pdf Light Aliphatic Naphtha 59.5 - 72% N-Heptane 17 - 27% Propane 7 - 10% Isobutane 3 - 5% I assume that the Propane and Isobutane are "propellants" as they both are in their gaseous form at normal temperatures. Propane @ -42C and Isobutane at -11.7C. I don't know what the combination of those gases are called. They're a common propellant used in spray cans and possibly a waste gas produced by petroleum distillation or cracking to produce naphtha. I could look it up, but not now. A company we worked with was in the "gas processing" business and had mentioned that they were building a "propellant gas" plant in Alabama, or some such place. When I questioned them about it it seemed that there is a huge demand for "propellant" and they were processing gas from conventional "gas wells". The active ingredient is the naphtha, which is one of the few organic solvents that are not currently banned. There are many forms, one of which is common Coleman camp fuel or "white-gas". As long as the solvent doesn't leave any oil residue behind, it can be used to clean rubber. What naphtha will not clean is dirt, which methinks is best removed first with water. |
#39
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Flat repair
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 10:23:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
I doubt there is water in 'wasbenzine'. It is a degreaser and very volatile. I patched a pinch flat from last Sunday and took some pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/KgRuRugg547GBJMn9 It took about 10 minutes total. While waiting I took the laundry out OF the dryer ;-) Lou Ok, I'm wrong. No water, which is odd because most of the articles I found on removing silicone mold release specified either hot water or isopropyl alcohol. Incidentally, benzene is a component of coal tar naphtha: https://iaspub.epa.gov/tdb/pages/contaminant/contaminantOverview.do?contaminantId=10140 "Benzene’s trade names and synonyms are Polystream, benzol, pyrobenzol, coal naphtha, and phene." http://www.etc-cte.ec.gc.ca/databases/Oilproperties/pdf/WEB_Naphtha_(Coal_Tar).pdf So, Andrew's magic "rubber cleaner" might be the same composition as your magic "wasbenzine". -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#40
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Flat repair
On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 2:20:57 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/10/2018 9:02 AM, Andy wrote: On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 7:47:58 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote: On 8/10/2018 1:14 AM, Andy wrote: I had to repair a flat. Have some questions. Is it best to apply patch to a completly flat tube? I found a small copper wire in tire. Is there something to minimize what can puncture tire? Thanks Pathing covered in images 4 through 8 he http://www.yellowjersey.org/tubfix.html If you find a way to escape flat tires do write back. One way is to not ride. :-) One thing that helps is to ride away from the gutter. If you ride on the section of road that's routinely contacted by car tires, you'll find it's swept clean of most debris. Lots of glass shards, wire bits etc. get tossed out of that area toward the far right, where most cyclists like to ride. -- - Frank Krygowski Interesting. We have frequent street sweepers, so the bike lane is usually pretty clean. Andy |
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