The death of rim brakes?

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 4:23:58 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 05:40:22 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
Snipped

I don't get the obsession of reusing spokes. If that turns
you on, fine.
IMHO 'best rim for this rider/usage' can be severely limited
by adding 'within poorly supported ERD'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I don't think it's an obsession to use the old spokes. I think it's because many of us just like to tape the new rim to the old rim and then move the spokes to the new rim without having to unlace t he old wheel. Plus it saves a fair bit of money. Where I am shops cut spokes to length and t hen thread them. My understanding is that those cut threads make a weaker spoke than do spokes with rolled threads.

I have a couple of extra wheels here that have tubular rims on t hem but the hubs and spokes are in excellent condition. If I could get a clincher rim to match the tubular rim so I could use the old spokes by taping the new rim to the old and transferring the spokes to the new rim I would.

YMMV

Cheers

I see 14 gauge spokes with nipples listed on Amazon for $0.10 each in
lots of 36.

Another shop was selling Wheelsmith spokes, and nipples for $0.96 each
in sets of 50. Or DT Swiss Champion spokes for $0.72 each in sets of
70. Or Bavel 36pcs Steel Spokes Mountain Bike Spokes MTB 251mm-268mm
W/Nipples in sets of 36 for $9.99.

Try standard road lengths of 280mm with DT/Sapim/Wheelsmith double butted 2.0/1.8. Most come with no nipples, and when you add those and shipping, you're approaching a buck a spoke. Spokes used to be an incidental expense but not anymore.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/14/2019 11:59 AM, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/13/2019 4:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 16:07:48 -0700, "Mark J."

wrote:

On 3/13/2019 3:40 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, AMuzi
wrote:
Snipped

I don't get the obsession of reusing spokes. If that
turns
you on, fine.
IMHO 'best rim for this rider/usage' can be severely
limited
by adding 'within poorly supported ERD'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I don't think it's an obsession to use the old spokes.
I think it's because many of us just like to tape the
new rim to the old rim and then move the spokes to the
new rim without having to unlace t he old wheel. Plus
it saves a fair bit of money. Where I am shops cut
spokes to length and t hen thread them. My
understanding is that those cut threads make a weaker
spoke than do spokes with rolled threads.

I have a couple of extra wheels here that have tubular
rims on t hem but the hubs and spokes are in excellent
condition. If I could get a clincher rim to match the
tubular rim so I could use the old spokes by taping the
new rim to the old and transferring the spokes to the
new rim I would.

YMMV

Cheers

I see 14 gauge spokes with nipples listed on Amazon for
$0.10 each in
lots of 36.

Please point me there! The lowest I can find on Amazon
are ~$0.27 (US)
each. I looked on Ebay and couldn't get anywhere near
that price point.
If they look reliable I'll use them to build wheels at
a local
non-profit / pro-bono community bike shop.

Mark J.

I couldn't find the site I originally quoted :-(
But there were a number of sites offering spokes in sets
of 36 for
$10.00 or less. Given that the TREK bikes I see listed
range from
$11,799, with disc's, to $849, with conventional brakes, a
measly ten
bucks is chicken feed.

For high-end Treks, sure. For functional recycled utility
bikes that will be sold on a sliding scale or given away,
not so much.

The shop is sitting on a bunch of new donated rims, and it
harvests hubs, many decent ones, from otherwise dead donated
wheels. My goal is to turn those resources into working
wheels through donated labor. Put it all together, and it's
marginally competitive with complete wholesale wheels due to
the cost of spokes. (And it's a fair question whether wheel
building is an efficient use of donated skilled time.)

My conjecture is that the rise of the boxed-wheels market
has raised the price of spokes dramatically, as spokes' drop
in wholesale/retail volume requires a much higher price to
be worth stocking. I remember getting basic but name-brand
spokes for 20 cents each, now it's closer to a dollar.

Andy M., did I guess right about the market?

Mark J.


I don't know.

We gave up on domestic premium spoke support[1] and just
import them ourselves so I'm not in the market here much
except for unusual items.

Premium 18/8 butted NJS cert spokes are $30/set here with DT
Swiss nipples. Your average replacement wheel[2] runs $40 to
$60 but almost all with UCP SG spokes.

[1]unreliable/slow delivery. Faster from Osaka than from
Milwaukee or Olney.
[2]assembled in USA from imported components

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 14/3/19 3:54 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:


I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of
environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when
a cougar eats their pet dog :-)


I think that is acceptable because ... nature.

I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose
some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox
hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-)

There was something similar I read a little while back, about a
Queensland politician who was photographed next to a pile of dead feral
pigs. Apparently it is an annual event, to go shoot a heap of feral
pigs, where he is from. Some city greens got all up tight about it and
proposed that the pigs should be rounded up and sent to a pasture of
their own somewhere. I think they were being serious. Made it all the
more laughable.

--
JS

On 3/14/2019 4:39 PM, James wrote:
On 14/3/19 3:54 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:


I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of
environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when
a cougar eats their pet dog :-)


I think that is acceptable because ... nature.

I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose
some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox
hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-)

There was something similar I read a little while back, about a
Queensland politician who was photographed next to a pile of dead feral
pigs.Â* Apparently it is an annual event, to go shoot a heap of feral
pigs, where he is from.Â* Some city greens got all up tight about it and
proposed that the pigs should be rounded up and sent to a pasture of
their own somewhere.Â* I think they were being serious.Â* Made it all the
more laughable.

Around here it's the extreme White Tailed Deer population. They are
harming many other species in the forests by eating the entire understory.

There are people who want to give them contraceptives instead of
shooting them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/14/2019 3:39 PM, James wrote:
On 14/3/19 3:54 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:


I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of
environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree
huggers do when
a cougar eats their pet dog :-)


I think that is acceptable because ... nature.

I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those
who propose
some "solution" without any thought at all. People that
protest fox
hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-)

There was something similar I read a little while back,
about a Queensland politician who was photographed next to a
pile of dead feral pigs. Apparently it is an annual event,
to go shoot a heap of feral pigs, where he is from. Some
city greens got all up tight about it and proposed that the
pigs should be rounded up and sent to a pasture of their own
somewhere. I think they were being serious. Made it all
the more laughable.


This is why we can't have satire now.

Our government in its wisdom is airdropping immigrant
(Canadian) wolves into Isle Royale National Park to decrease
the overpopulated elk/moose. Suggestions for a high-ticket
hunt were rejected despite great interest.

Being eaten alive by wolves is so much more humane...

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 11:28:24 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. Slocomb writes:

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:53:33 +1100, James
wrote:

On 14/3/19 9:36 am, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-12 18:33, James wrote:
On 13/3/19 2:07 am, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-10 06:34, wrote:
I keep reading see all the bikes coming out and basically all disc
brakes. I cannot believe rim brakes are going to be gone but maybe I
am just kidding myself. I frankly hate the disc brake look and
certainly for a long time parts will be around but are these rim
brakes a dead deal.


Disc brakes are simply better. Take a look around around automotive
and motorcycles. How many new cars and motorcycles are there that
still have drum brakes in front?

On Sunday I experienced the umpteenth reminder why rim brakes are
inferior. We had to cross some unpaved area on the road bikes and it
had rained. Muddy. Afterwards a descent on pavement, I reached in and
after the usual and expected one-second of zero brake action the rim
brakes came on. There was an awful grinding noise, you could literally
hear aluminum being eaten.

If I ever need a new road bike it will have disc brakes or I won't buy.


A bit of wet mud isn't the end of rim brakes.* Hose them off and they'll
be fine.


We have lot of bits of wet mud. The rims of my first MTB looked horribly
grooved after the first 1000mi. Trails here are really muddy in winter.

The other advantage of disc brakes is that they can be cooled off on
long descents with a quick spritz from the bottle. Phssst ... HISSSS ...
and on you go. No need for a lenghty cool-off period.


I don't know how my rims survived, MTB riding the wet and muddy forests
tracks in Winter.

Furthermore, how did I survive inferior rim brakes without the chance to
spritz from my bottle and "Phssst ... HISSSS ..."...

I shall commence counting my lucky stars.

Move to California and you will be able to ride with the Mountain
Lions :-)

Those are pussycats compared to the drop bears in Oz.

Tight! But of course, while mountain lions have killed humans there is
no known record of a drop bear having done so.

--
Cheers,
John B.

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 12:21:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/14/2019 3:43 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 12:54:41 AM UTC-4, John B. Slocomb wrote:

I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of
environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when
a cougar eats their pet dog :-)

I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose
some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox
hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-)


Probably the same thing they think when their dog or cat gets attacked by a coyote, coydog or hawk.

I'm actually hoping for something to take the tiny yappy dog next door.
The neighbors are lovely people except for a total inability to
understand how much their dog irritates others, especially after 11:30
PM or before 7:30 AM.

The dog barks whenever it sees something interesting. But it is
interested in everything. And the bark is piercing. Another neighbor
says he can no longer sleep with his windows open.

It's a tiny Yorkie. A cougar or coyote would be overkill. A Great Horned
Owl would do nicely.

Sue the neighbor for loss of sleep. You might even collect enough to
buy a new bicycle :-)

--
Cheers,
John B.

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 09:59:33 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 3/13/2019 4:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 16:07:48 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 3/13/2019 3:40 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
Snipped

I don't get the obsession of reusing spokes. If that turns
you on, fine.
IMHO 'best rim for this rider/usage' can be severely limited
by adding 'within poorly supported ERD'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I don't think it's an obsession to use the old spokes. I think it's because many of us just like to tape the new rim to the old rim and then move the spokes to the new rim without having to unlace t he old wheel. Plus it saves a fair bit of money. Where I am shops cut spokes to length and t hen thread them. My understanding is that those cut threads make a weaker spoke than do spokes with rolled threads.

I have a couple of extra wheels here that have tubular rims on t hem but the hubs and spokes are in excellent condition. If I could get a clincher rim to match the tubular rim so I could use the old spokes by taping the new rim to the old and transferring the spokes to the new rim I would.

YMMV

Cheers

I see 14 gauge spokes with nipples listed on Amazon for $0.10 each in
lots of 36.

Please point me there! The lowest I can find on Amazon are ~$0.27 (US)
each. I looked on Ebay and couldn't get anywhere near that price point.
If they look reliable I'll use them to build wheels at a local
non-profit / pro-bono community bike shop.

Mark J.

I couldn't find the site I originally quoted :-(
But there were a number of sites offering spokes in sets of 36 for
$10.00 or less. Given that the TREK bikes I see listed range from
$11,799, with disc's, to $849, with conventional brakes, a measly ten
bucks is chicken feed.

For high-end Treks, sure. For functional recycled utility bikes that
will be sold on a sliding scale or given away, not so much.

I suggest that if Trek is selling them there are a sufficient number
of folks that are buying them :-)



The shop is sitting on a bunch of new donated rims, and it harvests
hubs, many decent ones, from otherwise dead donated wheels. My goal is
to turn those resources into working wheels through donated labor. Put
it all together, and it's marginally competitive with complete wholesale
wheels due to the cost of spokes. (And it's a fair question whether
wheel building is an efficient use of donated skilled time.)

My conjecture is that the rise of the boxed-wheels market has raised the
price of spokes dramatically, as spokes' drop in wholesale/retail volume
requires a much higher price to be worth stocking. I remember getting
basic but name-brand spokes for 20 cents each, now it's closer to a dollar.

Very possible true. The Shimano wholesaler in Bangkok tells me that
they no longer stock rims, hubs or spokes as "nobody buys them
anymore".

Andy M., did I guess right about the market?

Mark J.

--
Cheers,
John B.

On Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:07:53 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, March 14, 2019 at 12:59:35 PM UTC-4, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/13/2019 4:36 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 16:07:48 -0700, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 3/13/2019 3:40 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:54:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019 at 3:17:05 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
Snipped

I don't get the obsession of reusing spokes. If that turns
you on, fine.
IMHO 'best rim for this rider/usage' can be severely limited
by adding 'within poorly supported ERD'.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I don't think it's an obsession to use the old spokes. I think it's because many of us just like to tape the new rim to the old rim and then move the spokes to the new rim without having to unlace t he old wheel. Plus it saves a fair bit of money. Where I am shops cut spokes to length and t hen thread them. My understanding is that those cut threads make a weaker spoke than do spokes with rolled threads.

I have a couple of extra wheels here that have tubular rims on t hem but the hubs and spokes are in excellent condition. If I could get a clincher rim to match the tubular rim so I could use the old spokes by taping the new rim to the old and transferring the spokes to the new rim I would.

YMMV

Cheers

I see 14 gauge spokes with nipples listed on Amazon for $0.10 each in
lots of 36.

Please point me there! The lowest I can find on Amazon are ~$0.27 (US)
each. I looked on Ebay and couldn't get anywhere near that price point.
If they look reliable I'll use them to build wheels at a local
non-profit / pro-bono community bike shop.

Mark J.

I couldn't find the site I originally quoted :-(
But there were a number of sites offering spokes in sets of 36 for
$10.00 or less. Given that the TREK bikes I see listed range from
$11,799, with disc's, to $849, with conventional brakes, a measly ten
bucks is chicken feed.

For high-end Treks, sure. For functional recycled utility bikes that
will be sold on a sliding scale or given away, not so much.

The shop is sitting on a bunch of new donated rims, and it harvests
hubs, many decent ones, from otherwise dead donated wheels. My goal is
to turn those resources into working wheels through donated labor. Put
it all together, and it's marginally competitive with complete wholesale
wheels due to the cost of spokes. (And it's a fair question whether
wheel building is an efficient use of donated skilled time.)

My conjecture is that the rise of the boxed-wheels market has raised the
price of spokes dramatically, as spokes' drop in wholesale/retail volume
requires a much higher price to be worth stocking. I remember getting
basic but name-brand spokes for 20 cents each, now it's closer to a dollar.

Andy M., did I guess right about the market?

Mark J.

Where I am the bicycle shops don't stock different lengths of spokes. They cut and thread spokes to the length you want. Those spokes are a little over a dollar a piece Canadian. SO a 36 spoke wheel is at least $36.00 for new spokes. Add in the cost of a new rim and you can get a reasonable quality Alex rim wheel. That further lessens the demand for spokes. It's a vicious downward spiral.

Cheers

Two or three years ago I popped a couple of spokes in my rear wheel
and didn't have any new spokes so went down to my local bike shop and
bought a set of brand new Shimano wheels. For which I paid something
like $50. I'm still using the wheels today and they still run true.

Why in the world would anyone want to go to all the trouble of
building a set of wheels :-)

--
Cheers,
John B.

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 07:39:01 +1100, James
wrote:

On 14/3/19 3:54 pm, John B. Slocomb wrote:


I read something to that effect the other day. Some sort of
environmentalist site I think. I wonder what the tree huggers do when
a cougar eats their pet dog :-)


I think that is acceptable because ... nature.

I'm not against environmental issues at all, just those who propose
some "solution" without any thought at all. People that protest fox
hunting while eating a McDonalds hamburger, for instance :-)

There was something similar I read a little while back, about a
Queensland politician who was photographed next to a pile of dead feral
pigs. Apparently it is an annual event, to go shoot a heap of feral
pigs, where he is from. Some city greens got all up tight about it and
proposed that the pigs should be rounded up and sent to a pasture of
their own somewhere. I think they were being serious. Made it all the
more laughable.

My usual argument for the more obnoxious Environmental is to ask
something like "Oh! Will you take a pair of wild pigs at your house".

Their usual response, "Oh! The government's got to do that" to which I
reply, "Are you willing to pay more in taxes to take care of the
pigs?"

The point is that most, if not all, of the devoted are not willing to
actually do anything about what they are ranting and waving their arms
about.

--
Cheers,
John B.