A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Gels vs Gatorade



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old July 23rd 04, 02:06 PM
Peter Cole
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gels vs Gatorade

"Terry Morse" wrote

Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own
line of sports nutrition products. Please explain why you think their
reasoning is all wrong.


I think you answered your own question.


Ads
  #52  
Old July 23rd 04, 04:05 PM
Terry Morse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gels vs Gatorade

In article ,
Peter wrote:

Terry Morse wrote:

"Just as important, though, is the fact that simple sugars, unlike
complex carbohydrates, take longer and require more fluid to empty
from the stomach and GI tract."


This statement totally ignores the fact that complex carbohydrates can't
be absorbed from the stomach and GI tract at all - they first have to be
broken down into monosaccharides...


I don't think this invalidates their comment, but it certainly casts
a shadow over the fuild transport situation. They claim that complex
carbs will be absorbed at the same 6-8% concentration as simple
sugars, but since the carbs have more energy content, they carry
with them more fuel. What they don't mention is that the carbs are
broken down into simple sugars in the intestine, raising the
concentration, which reportedly shuts down the stomach emptying.

"This is due to a physiological
feature known as osmolality...If the osmolality of your sports drink
deviates from body fluid levels, it will not absorb. A simple sugar
drink will only match regular body fluid osmolality at a very weak
6-8% concentration; otherwise, it will remain in the stomach until
sufficiently diluted.


Anyone who has mildly 'bonked' and then been rather quickly revitalized
by drinking a coke or other sugar-rich drink will recognize that the
sugar didn't just sit in the stomach waiting for them to drink lots of
additional water to achieve this dilution.


Well, that concentrated sugar solution had to get through the
intestinal wall some how, and it can't climb an osmolality gradient
to do it. I don't think there are any pumps in the intenstines for
moving fluids. From what I understand, when you have a concentrated
solution, fluid will flow from the bloodstream into the intestines
until the solution is isotonic (same concentration as the body's).
When hydration is at a premium, that's probably not a great idea.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
  #53  
Old July 23rd 04, 04:05 PM
Terry Morse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gels vs Gatorade

In article ,
Peter wrote:

Terry Morse wrote:

"Just as important, though, is the fact that simple sugars, unlike
complex carbohydrates, take longer and require more fluid to empty
from the stomach and GI tract."


This statement totally ignores the fact that complex carbohydrates can't
be absorbed from the stomach and GI tract at all - they first have to be
broken down into monosaccharides...


I don't think this invalidates their comment, but it certainly casts
a shadow over the fuild transport situation. They claim that complex
carbs will be absorbed at the same 6-8% concentration as simple
sugars, but since the carbs have more energy content, they carry
with them more fuel. What they don't mention is that the carbs are
broken down into simple sugars in the intestine, raising the
concentration, which reportedly shuts down the stomach emptying.

"This is due to a physiological
feature known as osmolality...If the osmolality of your sports drink
deviates from body fluid levels, it will not absorb. A simple sugar
drink will only match regular body fluid osmolality at a very weak
6-8% concentration; otherwise, it will remain in the stomach until
sufficiently diluted.


Anyone who has mildly 'bonked' and then been rather quickly revitalized
by drinking a coke or other sugar-rich drink will recognize that the
sugar didn't just sit in the stomach waiting for them to drink lots of
additional water to achieve this dilution.


Well, that concentrated sugar solution had to get through the
intestinal wall some how, and it can't climb an osmolality gradient
to do it. I don't think there are any pumps in the intenstines for
moving fluids. From what I understand, when you have a concentrated
solution, fluid will flow from the bloodstream into the intestines
until the solution is isotonic (same concentration as the body's).
When hydration is at a premium, that's probably not a great idea.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
  #54  
Old July 23rd 04, 04:28 PM
Terry Morse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gels vs Gatorade

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

Terry Morse wrote:

- S. Born, "The Endurance Athlete's Guide to
Suceess", an E-Caps/Hammer Nutrition publication

Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own
line of sports nutrition products.


You were arguning with me based on an advertisement? That's funny.


Arguments produce understanding. Actually, the referenced article
was written by Steve Born, who is a technical advisor to E-CAPS. He
references the work of Bill Misner, PhD (nutrition). Maybe you would
like to refute some of the claims?

It's even funnier to argue with Coggan based on that.


I'm drawing him out, hoping to get a second opinion.

Prediction: he's going to tell you to look it up in pubmed or another
online database of real science.


There's nothing I've found in Pubmed that compares maltodextrin with
glucose or fructose, although there are a few studies that compare
maltodextrin with plain water. Not surprisingly, maltodextrin wins.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
  #55  
Old July 23rd 04, 04:28 PM
Terry Morse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gels vs Gatorade

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

Terry Morse wrote:

- S. Born, "The Endurance Athlete's Guide to
Suceess", an E-Caps/Hammer Nutrition publication

Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own
line of sports nutrition products.


You were arguning with me based on an advertisement? That's funny.


Arguments produce understanding. Actually, the referenced article
was written by Steve Born, who is a technical advisor to E-CAPS. He
references the work of Bill Misner, PhD (nutrition). Maybe you would
like to refute some of the claims?

It's even funnier to argue with Coggan based on that.


I'm drawing him out, hoping to get a second opinion.

Prediction: he's going to tell you to look it up in pubmed or another
online database of real science.


There's nothing I've found in Pubmed that compares maltodextrin with
glucose or fructose, although there are a few studies that compare
maltodextrin with plain water. Not surprisingly, maltodextrin wins.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
  #56  
Old July 23rd 04, 04:34 PM
Terry Morse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gels vs Gatorade

Peter Cole wrote:

"Terry Morse" wrote

Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own
line of sports nutrition products. Please explain why you think their
reasoning is all wrong.


I think you answered your own question.


Not good enough. Arguments still must be refuted or validated,
regardless of who makes them. Too many arguments these days are
shrugged off with the "bias" label, "you're biased so any claims you
make are nonsense". Nonsense.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
  #57  
Old July 23rd 04, 04:34 PM
Terry Morse
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gels vs Gatorade

Peter Cole wrote:

"Terry Morse" wrote

Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own
line of sports nutrition products. Please explain why you think their
reasoning is all wrong.


I think you answered your own question.


Not good enough. Arguments still must be refuted or validated,
regardless of who makes them. Too many arguments these days are
shrugged off with the "bias" label, "you're biased so any claims you
make are nonsense". Nonsense.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
  #58  
Old July 23rd 04, 04:52 PM
Peter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gels vs Gatorade

Terry Morse wrote:

In article ,
Peter wrote:


Terry Morse wrote:


"Just as important, though, is the fact that simple sugars, unlike
complex carbohydrates, take longer and require more fluid to empty
from the stomach and GI tract."


This statement totally ignores the fact that complex carbohydrates can't
be absorbed from the stomach and GI tract at all - they first have to be
broken down into monosaccharides...



I don't think this invalidates their comment, but it certainly casts
a shadow over the fuild transport situation. They claim that complex
carbs will be absorbed at the same 6-8% concentration as simple
sugars, but since the carbs have more energy content, they carry
with them more fuel. What they don't mention is that the carbs are
broken down into simple sugars in the intestine, raising the
concentration, which reportedly shuts down the stomach emptying.


Of course they don't mention that since it destroys their whole
argument. Complex carbohydrates aren't absorbed at any concentration so
the way you get the fastest absorption is to start with monosaccharides
that don't have to be broken down first. Adding additional steps won't
speed up the process.


"This is due to a physiological
feature known as osmolality...If the osmolality of your sports drink
deviates from body fluid levels, it will not absorb. A simple sugar
drink will only match regular body fluid osmolality at a very weak
6-8% concentration; otherwise, it will remain in the stomach until
sufficiently diluted.


Anyone who has mildly 'bonked' and then been rather quickly revitalized
by drinking a coke or other sugar-rich drink will recognize that the
sugar didn't just sit in the stomach waiting for them to drink lots of
additional water to achieve this dilution.



Well, that concentrated sugar solution had to get through the
intestinal wall some how, and it can't climb an osmolality gradient
to do it. I don't think there are any pumps in the intenstines for
moving fluids.


As quoted befo
http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hboo...b_sugars.html:
"Particularly important dietary carbohydrates include starch and
disaccharides such as lactose and sucrose. None of these molecules can
be absorbed for the simple reason that they cannot cross cell membranes
unaided and, unlike the situation for monosaccharides, there are no
transporters to carry them across."
Those transporters do act as a form of pump for getting the
monosaccharides (molecules - not fluids) into the bloodstream. But in
any event, the gradient in this case is in the right direction - you
have a higher sugar concentration in the intestines so there will be a
natural tendency to get it into the bloodstream where the concentration
is lower.

From what I understand, when you have a concentrated
solution, fluid will flow from the bloodstream into the intestines
until the solution is isotonic (same concentration as the body's).
When hydration is at a premium, that's probably not a great idea.


That's the standard osmotic pressure with a semipermeable membrance that
permits water to pass but blocks the dissolved substance. But in this
case the monosaccharides are able to pass through the intestinal wall
membrance. So the concentration can equalize just by moving the sugar
molecules into the bloodstream.

  #59  
Old July 23rd 04, 04:52 PM
Peter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gels vs Gatorade

Terry Morse wrote:

In article ,
Peter wrote:


Terry Morse wrote:


"Just as important, though, is the fact that simple sugars, unlike
complex carbohydrates, take longer and require more fluid to empty
from the stomach and GI tract."


This statement totally ignores the fact that complex carbohydrates can't
be absorbed from the stomach and GI tract at all - they first have to be
broken down into monosaccharides...



I don't think this invalidates their comment, but it certainly casts
a shadow over the fuild transport situation. They claim that complex
carbs will be absorbed at the same 6-8% concentration as simple
sugars, but since the carbs have more energy content, they carry
with them more fuel. What they don't mention is that the carbs are
broken down into simple sugars in the intestine, raising the
concentration, which reportedly shuts down the stomach emptying.


Of course they don't mention that since it destroys their whole
argument. Complex carbohydrates aren't absorbed at any concentration so
the way you get the fastest absorption is to start with monosaccharides
that don't have to be broken down first. Adding additional steps won't
speed up the process.


"This is due to a physiological
feature known as osmolality...If the osmolality of your sports drink
deviates from body fluid levels, it will not absorb. A simple sugar
drink will only match regular body fluid osmolality at a very weak
6-8% concentration; otherwise, it will remain in the stomach until
sufficiently diluted.


Anyone who has mildly 'bonked' and then been rather quickly revitalized
by drinking a coke or other sugar-rich drink will recognize that the
sugar didn't just sit in the stomach waiting for them to drink lots of
additional water to achieve this dilution.



Well, that concentrated sugar solution had to get through the
intestinal wall some how, and it can't climb an osmolality gradient
to do it. I don't think there are any pumps in the intenstines for
moving fluids.


As quoted befo
http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hboo...b_sugars.html:
"Particularly important dietary carbohydrates include starch and
disaccharides such as lactose and sucrose. None of these molecules can
be absorbed for the simple reason that they cannot cross cell membranes
unaided and, unlike the situation for monosaccharides, there are no
transporters to carry them across."
Those transporters do act as a form of pump for getting the
monosaccharides (molecules - not fluids) into the bloodstream. But in
any event, the gradient in this case is in the right direction - you
have a higher sugar concentration in the intestines so there will be a
natural tendency to get it into the bloodstream where the concentration
is lower.

From what I understand, when you have a concentrated
solution, fluid will flow from the bloodstream into the intestines
until the solution is isotonic (same concentration as the body's).
When hydration is at a premium, that's probably not a great idea.


That's the standard osmotic pressure with a semipermeable membrance that
permits water to pass but blocks the dissolved substance. But in this
case the monosaccharides are able to pass through the intestinal wall
membrance. So the concentration can equalize just by moving the sugar
molecules into the bloodstream.

  #60  
Old July 23rd 04, 05:32 PM
David Damerell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Gels vs Gatorade

Terry Morse wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:
"Terry Morse" wrote
Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own
line of sports nutrition products. Please explain why you think their
reasoning is all wrong.

I think you answered your own question.

Not good enough. Arguments still must be refuted or validated,
regardless of who makes them.


Indeed, but there isn't an argument in what you posted, merely an
assertion.
--
David Damerell Kill the tomato!
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cost effective OtB hydration \ sports drink Chris Racing 6 July 14th 04 05:02 AM
The heck with Gatorade! Sorni General 14 December 3rd 03 02:06 PM
The heck with Gatorade! Sorni Mountain Biking 16 December 3rd 03 02:06 PM
Good Gels? Binary Mountain Biking 15 September 20th 03 08:23 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.