Real Bike Cities.

Mike Kruger wrote:

I was surprised to see Paris on the original troll's list. I haven't biked
when I've visited there, but there didn't seem to be a particularly high
amount of bicycling and the traffic didn't seem particularly
bicycle-friendly. Outside Paris (and I don't mean the suburbs) there seemed
to be both more biking and a more bike-friendly atmosphere.

Paris is certainly better than London, but should be quite far down on anyone's
list of European biking cities. There are some bike lanes here and there, but
most of the time you have to share the bus corridors - with the buses! Traffic
can be demonic - I made the mistake of trying a route through the 15th
Arrondissement on a Friday afternoon just before a long weekend and it was
nose-to-nose trucks. Also, as I wrote in my thread on the Coulee Verte, there is
a tendency not to upkeep bike paths even when they are provided, and to design
them in such a way as to be practically unuseable.

I know it's only a smallish town, but I think Cambridge UK should rank on any
list of great European cycling cities.

EFR
Ile de France

DRS wrote:
"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message


[...]

I doubt it.
Here in Europe we usually consider Holland as the best example of how
to plan and build for bicycle commuters.

How much of it is actually planned? I lived in Almere and Amsterdam.
I thought the bike paths (and roads generally) in Almere were
designed by people on acid. And Amsterdam wasn't planned, it's old
and organic (not that that's a bad thing).

That's the difference between Europe and the U.S.
We built our towns long before any cars and bicycles were around, then we
built the roads. In the U.S. it seems you build the roads first and then the
town.
Planning over here is utilizing what you've already got as best as possible.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Red Cloud" wrote in message
om...
"cheg" wrote in message
news:6Wjvc.41027$Ly.26887@attbi_s01...
"Red Cloud" wrote in message
om...
I'd take Seattle over Rome any day for bike commuting. Seattle does not have
the
plague of moped riders talking on cel phones filling every gap in the car
traffic.


Do you see a lots bikers in Seattle?

Yes, especially around the University district. But biking is not as comman as
in ,say, the Netherlands. Seattle has a lot of hills and that makes it harder
for people who are starting to ride.

"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message

DRS wrote:
"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message


[...]

I doubt it.
Here in Europe we usually consider Holland as the best example of
how to plan and build for bicycle commuters.

How much of it is actually planned? I lived in Almere and Amsterdam.
I thought the bike paths (and roads generally) in Almere were
designed by people on acid. And Amsterdam wasn't planned, it's old
and organic (not that that's a bad thing).

That's the difference between Europe and the U.S.
We built our towns long before any cars and bicycles were around,
then we built the roads. In the U.S. it seems you build the roads
first and then the town.
Planning over here is utilizing what you've already got as best as
possible.

Um, I'm not in the US. And Almere is only twenty-five or thirty years old.
There's no excuse for its appalling road and bike paths design. The whole
thing was designed from the start to be as difficult and as frustrating as
possible. In a lot of ways Amsterdam actually works better.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

DRS wrote:
"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message

DRS wrote:
"Per Elmsäter" wrote in message


[...]

I doubt it.
Here in Europe we usually consider Holland as the best example of
how to plan and build for bicycle commuters.

How much of it is actually planned? I lived in Almere and
Amsterdam. I thought the bike paths (and roads generally) in Almere
were designed by people on acid. And Amsterdam wasn't planned,
it's old and organic (not that that's a bad thing).

That's the difference between Europe and the U.S.
We built our towns long before any cars and bicycles were around,
then we built the roads. In the U.S. it seems you build the roads
first and then the town.
Planning over here is utilizing what you've already got as best as
possible.

Um, I'm not in the US. And Almere is only twenty-five or thirty
years old. There's no excuse for its appalling road and bike paths
design. The whole thing was designed from the start to be as
difficult and as frustrating as possible. In a lot of ways Amsterdam
actually works better.

OK. I've never been in Almere and I'll take your word for it
Yes acid was very popular in Holland 25-30 years ago.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

Red Cloud wrote:
"cheg" wrote in message news:6Wjvc.41027$Ly.26887@attbi_s01...

I'd take Seattle over Rome any day for bike commuting. Seattle does not have the
plague of moped riders talking on cel phones filling every gap in the car
traffic.

Do you see a lots bikers in Seattle?

No no no. The dozens and dozens of people I passed on bikes yesterday
were obviously delusions caused by too much auto exhaust. Nobody cycles
here in the Pacific Northwest.

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
We all declare for liberty, but in using the same word we do not all mean
the same thing.
-- A. Lincoln

"maxo" wrote in message
news
I ride on the road in Washington, DC and feel just like a vehicle,
too. I share the traffic lights with the cars and the trucks - no big
deal...

When I was in Chicago, I'd often avoid the bike paths if I wanted to get
somewhere fast and use the regular streets, the paths being clogged by
geniuses on bikes and blades who think it's a good idea to listen to
headphones at full volume and cluelessly block traffic. LOL

I used to comute by Bicycle in DC and I still commute (well as often as I
can, but not nearly as often) in Chicago. DC is a much better City for a
variety of "strange" reasons. The first of these is the condition of the
Chicago Streets. Due to its location at the Melt-Freeze zone, the streets
in Chicago are some of the most potholed, pavement up-lifted streets in the
world. They are full of nasty lots of poorly filled temporary patches.
Even a great brand new street only lasts a few years. This makes riding a
bit harder. Secondly the Mayor has decided to put in lots of Bike Lanes
but hasn't really ever enforced the bike only concept. What this means is
that, in bad traffic, the worst of the drivers end up charging up the bike
lanes in their SUV's and on their cell phones at high rates of speed. I
often used Elston Avenue to go from the Northwest Side to the loop. It was
a great ride. I never really felt threatened as it was more than 2 lanes
wide in each direction but a bit less than three. Then they converted it
into a one lane in each direction with a parking and a bike lane. It is
now a much tougher (and scary) ride. Lincoln Avenue, in contrast, is 1.5
lanes in each direction and does not have a bike lane for large stretches.
It is now the preferred route.

Of course one of the other "issues" is the type of bicycle. I commuted in
DC on a Road Bike. Soon after arriving in Chicago my road bike got badly
bent (as well as me I might add) by Domino's Pizza. I used a "hybrid" or
"commuter" bike for years and hated it. About a month ago I purchased an
Old late 70's/early 80's Lotus Road Bike and rebuilt it. Boy does it make
the commute better. A real bike that I can get up to a safe speed and hold
at that speed. I feel much more comfortable in 25 MPH traffic going 25
MPH.

(Red Cloud) wrote:

3. London

.... didn't seem particularly bike-friendly to me...

5. Other European big and small cities

Some are, some aren't. Few have the bicycle facilities that exist in
Chinese cities.

These europeans cities could be the best place for biker riders, and most
Americna city like LA, NY, Pheoneix, Seattle are the worst place for
biker.

Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

In article ,
Mark Hickey wrote:

(Red Cloud) wrote:

3. London

... didn't seem particularly bike-friendly to me...

5. Other European big and small cities

Some are, some aren't. Few have the bicycle facilities that exist in
Chinese cities.

These europeans cities could be the best place for biker riders, and most
Americna city like LA, NY, Pheoneix, Seattle are the worst place for
biker.

Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Your BaaacK!

If Phoenix is so good, how come you go around head butting p/u tucks????

Please don't do that anymore....)

HAND

--
"Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness"

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

3. London

... didn't seem particularly bike-friendly to me...


Since the introduction of the congestion charge in central London, bike use is
very much on the up in London. Indeed Transport for London produce free maps
showing cycle routes throughout the whole of London. The routes were devised in
conjunction with local cyclists, so I think that says something about them.

As I've got family living in London, I've got the set of maps, so I can cycle
about when I go to visit.

There's also lots of very active cycle groups down in London too.

5. Other European big and small cities

I've cycled in Paris and in Cologne.

Paris was a sheer joy to cycle in. The difference in how Parisian motorists
behaved (with *loads* of courtesy and giving much room) as compared to cycling
in my local city (Norwich, England) was quite astounding. Cycling in Paris is
how I fell in love with the French. I *must* get back there some time.

Cologne is a very cycling-friendly city. Again, it was easy to get a hold of a
special cycling guide, a book giving loads of advice on cycle facilites and
routes in and around the city. The cycle map produced by the city, showing all
the cycle routes/lanes/paths in and around the city is *excellent*. When there
it was lovely to see cycling as an accepted form of transport for all ages.
Young kids on little tricycles to grandmothers & grandfathers out on their
bikes was the normal thing to see, and it was wonderful to see. One thing I
noticed there too, was the way on shared cycle paths, pedestrians really did
keep to their side of the path and cyclists to theirs. Cycling alongside the
Rhine was very pleasant. Cycles were allowed on the trams in and out of the
city centre and the suburbs. No hassle - lovely.

Cheers, helen s





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