Real Bike Cities.

Mark Hickey wrote:
(Red Cloud) wrote:

3. London

... didn't seem particularly bike-friendly to me...

5. Other European big and small cities

Some are, some aren't. Few have the bicycle facilities that exist in
Chinese cities.

"Chinese cities" is too much of a generalization, I think. I was just
going to nominate Hong Kong's urban areas as an example of just how bad
a city can be for bicycles. The bigger Guangdong cities I've been to
with a bike didn't strike me as being cycling paradises either, though
there are a lot more people riding there so you at least get the benefit
of some strength of numbers. They are nothing like Beijing or Shanghai,
though.

These europeans cities could be the best place for biker riders, and most
Americna city like LA, NY, Pheoneix, Seattle are the worst place for
biker.

Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.

After Hong Kong island I don't even need bike traffic plans to appreciate
bicycling in the American cities I've cycled in. US lane widths and
the relatively low (compared to Hong Kong) traffic density*speed products
are sufficient.

Dennis Ferguson

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..
(Red Cloud) wrote:



Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.


Don't make me laugh. I used to live in Phoenix, and I hate this city.
There is no bikers. The streets are ****ing big and when AMericans not
depend on bike, no biker in the streets. Phoenix is like Orange County CA
where people just do not ride bike because they are too much depend on
4-wheels, and moreover it is not a Liberal city like Northern CA.

(Red Cloud) wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..
(Red Cloud) wrote:

Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.

Don't make me laugh. I used to live in Phoenix, and I hate this city.
There is no bikers. The streets are ****ing big and when AMericans not
depend on bike, no biker in the streets. Phoenix is like Orange County CA
where people just do not ride bike because they are too much depend on
4-wheels, and moreover it is not a Liberal city like Northern CA.

Troll. I doubt you've ever even been in Phoenix (you'd probably have
known how to spell it if you had).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

I live in LA, in the San Fernando Valley. The LA Basin - where I used to
live - is absolutely horrid for cycling, but the San Fernando Valley where I
live now is actually pretty good. I've done a lot of cycling in Orange
County and Orange County is, in many of its areas, one of the best places
you could possibly cycle - wide lanes, lots of bike lanes, perfect weather,
new well-maintained streets. Ventura County is also a great place to cycle.

Before LA I lived in DC and at least up until about 15 years ago when I
lived there the biking was great in DC. I commuted to work everyday and,
despite the city traffic, it was very easy to ride in.


"Mark Hickey" wrote in message
...
(Red Cloud) wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote in message
. ..
(Red Cloud) wrote:

Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.

Don't make me laugh. I used to live in Phoenix, and I hate this city.
There is no bikers. The streets are ****ing big and when AMericans not
depend on bike, no biker in the streets. Phoenix is like Orange County
CA
where people just do not ride bike because they are too much depend on
4-wheels, and moreover it is not a Liberal city like Northern CA.

Troll. I doubt you've ever even been in Phoenix (you'd probably have
known how to spell it if you had).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..
(Red Cloud) wrote:

Mark Hickey wrote in message . ..
(Red Cloud) wrote:

Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.

Don't make me laugh. I used to live in Phoenix, and I hate this city.
There is no bikers. The streets are ****ing big and when AMericans not
depend on bike, no biker in the streets. Phoenix is like Orange County CA
where people just do not ride bike because they are too much depend on
4-wheels, and moreover it is not a Liberal city like Northern CA.

Troll. I doubt you've ever even been in Phoenix (you'd probably have
known how to spell it if you had).


Troll Troll troll...



Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

In article ,
(Red Cloud) writes:

Troll Troll troll...

It's a lot easier on the nerves in some ways to ride with
a bunch of car traffic than a bunch of bicycle traffic.

But it's easier on the spirit in some ways to ride with
a bunch of bicycle traffic.


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"Per Elmsäter" :

Here in Europe we usually consider Holland as the best example of how to
plan and build for bicycle commuters.

I don't know any experienced bicycle commuters who consider Holland to
be especially bicycle friendly. On the other hand, I know a lot of
experienced and competent riders who fervently hate that model.

In theory, the Netherlands model means planning and building for
cyclists. In practices, it is a model for building ghettos in order to
get cyclists off the roads. Building and maintaining usable seperate
facilities for cars and cyclists doesn't even work anymore in the
Netherlands itself, where cycling has had a very strong tradition.

German attempts of imitating that here, but without having a unbroken
base in tradition, and trying that after having lost the battle about
separate spaces for pedestrians against the motorists long ago, has
produced cycling nightmares in many German cities. Take, for example,
the newly built bicycle lane in my home town, Bonn, the former capital,
which considers itself "bicycle friendly" (ha!). Have a look at
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/ansichten.htm and
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/inzwischen1.htm for example.

Make no mistake: the part of to the right of the green bushes
in http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/rwarg03a.jpg
that's a newly build bicycle lane, built to the Netherlandian model,
according to those people who represent and propagate this fashion
arond here vociferously.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather us the road, if I only could.
Unfortunately, crap like that shown above is mandatory for every single
cyclist, whether a child, a commuter, or a racer ridng at the speed
limit on that road.

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On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 23:03:55 +0200, Wolfgang Strobl
wrote:


Have a look at
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/ansichten.htm and
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/inzwischen1.htm for example.

Make no mistake: the part of to the right of the green bushes
in http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/rwarg03a.jpg
that's a newly build bicycle lane, built to the Netherlandian model,
according to those people who represent and propagate this fashion
arond here vociferously.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather us the road, if I only could.
Unfortunately, crap like that shown above is mandatory for every single
cyclist, whether a child, a commuter, or a racer ridng at the speed
limit on that road.

I don't read German, but from what I am seeing, are bicyclists
supposed to ride up that gray cobblestone ramp and along the sidewalk?
*This* is what they consider a bike lane????

Are these in areas of the city where pedestrians are common? What a
mess.

And it is illegal to ride on the roadway at all?? Whose stupid idea
was all of this type of work?

Does Bonn have any Critical Mass rides?

"Wolfgang Strobl" wrote in message
...

Make no mistake: the part of to the right of the green bushes
in http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/rwarg03a.jpg
that's a newly build bicycle lane, built to the Netherlandian model,
according to those people who represent and propagate this fashion
arond here vociferously.

Not the finest example of German engineering I've seen.

My sympathy!

Dan Daniel :

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 23:03:55 +0200, Wolfgang Strobl
wrote:


Have a look at
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/ansichten.htm and
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/inzwischen1.htm for example.

Make no mistake: the part of to the right of the green bushes
in http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/rwarg03a.jpg
that's a newly build bicycle lane, built to the Netherlandian model,
according to those people who represent and propagate this fashion
arond here vociferously.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather us the road, if I only could.
Unfortunately, crap like that shown above is mandatory for every single
cyclist, whether a child, a commuter, or a racer ridng at the speed
limit on that road.

I don't read German, but from what I am seeing, are bicyclists
supposed to ride up that gray cobblestone ramp and along the sidewalk?

Exactly.

*This* is what they consider a bike lane????

Yep. It's called "Radweg", by the German STVO (Straßenverkehrsordnung
aka national traffic code).

If there is a blue sign with a white bicycle (quite visible in the
upper part of http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/rwarg03a.jpg),
using that space is mandatory for all cyclists. ("Zeichen 240" in
http://bernd.sluka.de/Radfahren/rechtlich.html) gives a large picture
af the sign in question).


Are these in areas of the city where pedestrians are common?

Sure. What do you believe how people living in these houses get out of
their houses?

Want some more? Have a look at
http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~chu/...adwege2004.php
It's in German language, too, but the pictures IMHO speak for
themeselves.

Some pictures need an explaination, though. One might assume that
http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~chu/...e/IMG_1156.JPG
shows bicycle lane on the sidewalk. Not so. The sidewalk is the part
to the right of the post. The bicycle lane is between the trees on the
left and the post, hidden under the snow.

http://radwege.udoline.de/streets/zw...ahn/langenhof/

http://www.ingokeck.de/verkehr/galgenbergsperre/

http://bernd.sluka.de/Donau-Radweg/dr2.html

http://home.t-online.de/home/klaus.m....erl/fjoh1.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/klaus.m...rl/fsamml1.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/klaus.m...l/fschwab1.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/klaus.m...erl/flist1.htm

http://www.mathias-heier.de/fradweg/fradweg.html

http://www.radwegmecker.frank-bokelmann.de/Gewalt.htm

http://siggiruehl.bei.t-online.de/radwege_koeln.htm


http://www.3gang.de/mz_radw/

http://www.hiss.org/~fifi/fahrrad/radwege/

http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rw...durch_bonn.htm
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rw...slideshow.html
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rw...slideshow.html

http://radweg.mine.nu/~m/

http://radweg.mine.nu/ is a page colllecting many such collections.


What a
mess.

That's what I say.


And it is illegal to ride on the roadway at all??

Sure. That's the law in Germany, and, if I'm not mistaken, in Holland
too.


Whose stupid idea
was all of this type of work?

Does Bonn have any Critical Mass rides?

Sort of. Unfortunately, such rides are organized mostly by people who
fear riding in traffic like the proverbial plague, and approve anything
which gets them off the road, or at least gets them some little space
of their own, as little as it may be. For example, the bike lane
shown in
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rw.../images/07.jpg
has gotten a lot of positive press by the local ADFC (Allgemeiner
Deutscher Fahrrad Club, national bicycling club) as an example of a
notably good bicycling facility.


--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions