Real Bike Cities.

(Tom Keats) wrote:

In some ways, riding in predominantly car traffic can be more
comfortable than riding in predominantly bicycle traffic.

I have always been very comfortable riding in automotive traffic, but
it took a while to get used to riding in the bicycle traffic in
Beijing. 7 million bikes on the road seemingly all at once, probably
half of them with functional brakes.

It was amazing once I did get used to it though - it was like being in
a large school of fish - all of us jinking right or left depending on
the particular need. You could never relax - there was ALWAYS
something that could hurt you... an open manhole, a bus going south in
a northbound bike lane, large bricks that would be left in the lanes
for days (and all this on unlighted stretches at night all too often).

Wouldn't have traded it for the world though...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

In article ,
Mark Hickey writes:
(Tom Keats) wrote:

In some ways, riding in predominantly car traffic can be more
comfortable than riding in predominantly bicycle traffic.

I have always been very comfortable riding in automotive traffic, but
it took a while to get used to riding in the bicycle traffic in
Beijing. 7 million bikes on the road seemingly all at once, probably
half of them with functional brakes.

It was amazing once I did get used to it though - it was like being in
a large school of fish - all of us jinking right or left depending on
the particular need. You could never relax - there was ALWAYS
something that could hurt you... an open manhole, a bus going south in
a northbound bike lane, large bricks that would be left in the lanes
for days (and all this on unlighted stretches at night all too often).

Wouldn't have traded it for the world though...

That sounds like a great eye-opening and mind-opening experience;
I imagine you count yourself fortunate for having that. I sure would.

When folks wistfully wish for the 'Amsterdam Model' and suchlike
bike-path stuff, I wonder if they consider they'd be riding among
predominantly (or rather, exclusively) bicycle traffic, and if
they'd /really/ be ready for that?

I'm reminded of that saying about being careful of what one
wishes for.


cheers,
Tom

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Matt O'Toole wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:

Not so. Any delusion, which makes the people feel better, but do
worse will drive people away from cycling, in the long run.

Like those horrible, "door zone" bike lanes in Amherst?

The ones through downtown Amherst are sort of narrow, although
the ones leading south ward actually lead to the right side of
the middle (straight ahead) lane rather than veering off to
the right side of the intersection. That's unusual in my
experience.

The marked bike lanes going along Rt 9 and Smith College seem
to be quite wide enough. The only objection to them from the
biking community that I've heard is that they don't go far
enough. They fizzle out at the end of Smith College.

But the road is plenty wide with or without them, so it really
doesn't matter whether they are there are not for me. But to
many bicyclists, they seemed to have a calming effect on getting
bikes and motor traffic to "get along". Maybe it's just me.

Making cars inconvenient can certainly spur bicycle use, but that's not the best
answer. The real problem is over-reliance on transportation itself. The answer
to that is in urban planning -- discouraging developers from moving to the
outskirts of town, to build more sprawly, cul-de-sacky, auto-dependent
slumburbia.

I very much agree. I think there has been a dawning realization
that the way we do cities and suburbs makes for generally people
unfriendly environment. It's great for the cars, but not really
so good for people.

Again, look at where the highest land values are, and note how many more
bicycles there are than in the typical American suburb. Being able to walk and
bike to work/school/shopping, etc. is a *luxury,* for which many people are
willing to pay *lots.* Go over to Northampton, and note the home prices within
walking distance of downtown. One could argue that living there would be *less*
convenient for the typical, auto-dependent American. So there must be value in
walkable, bikeable neighborhoods.

Absolutely true again. Interestingly, initial resistance toward
the bike path in 'Hamp centered on fears of buglars carrying off
family jewels (by bike??) or people stealing corn and potatoes
from the fields (the Norwottuck bike path across the valley;
again, by bike???).

Now a home near the bike path actually is a selling point!

Where do you ride Matt? You seem very familiar with my pedaling
grounds.


SMH

SMH

Terry Morse wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:


Frank Krygowski wrote:


They're probably dreaming of cute Dutch girls in wooden shoes in
front of windmills, too

Whoa momma! The "St Pauli Girl" bike path!

Guess who's gonna give biking to work a try today!!!

Nice, but Provo Girl's more my type (even if she snowboards):

http://www.ut4ne.com/provo_girl_post...9_enhanced.jpg

Whooo hooo! Looks like an 80 mile bike commute to my
office 2 miles away!!!


SMH

(Tom Keats) wrote:
Mark Hickey writes:

I have always been very comfortable riding in automotive traffic, but
it took a while to get used to riding in the bicycle traffic in
Beijing. 7 million bikes on the road seemingly all at once, probably
half of them with functional brakes.

It was amazing once I did get used to it though - it was like being in
a large school of fish - all of us jinking right or left depending on
the particular need. You could never relax - there was ALWAYS
something that could hurt you... an open manhole, a bus going south in
a northbound bike lane, large bricks that would be left in the lanes
for days (and all this on unlighted stretches at night all too often).

Wouldn't have traded it for the world though...

That sounds like a great eye-opening and mind-opening experience;
I imagine you count yourself fortunate for having that. I sure would.

When folks wistfully wish for the 'Amsterdam Model' and suchlike
bike-path stuff, I wonder if they consider they'd be riding among
predominantly (or rather, exclusively) bicycle traffic, and if
they'd /really/ be ready for that?

I'm reminded of that saying about being careful of what one
wishes for.

Too true. Beijing was NOT the place to get in "racing shape". Riding
speed was pretty much restricted to no more than a little faster than
the rest of the pack (which was at a fairly pedestrian pace), at least
when it was "rush hour". At best, a training ride would be short
intense intervals across any gaps in the cyclists.

And anyone who thinks pedestrians are unpredictable on MUPs would be
horrified by the random nature of Chinese cyclists and pedestrians
(who often will cross multiple lanes of automotive roads without a
glance to check for traffic).

So in the end, Beijing was a great bicycle city, but not a great place
to approach cycling as a sport (that is, to ride to get in shape - not
necessarily "race").

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Stephen Harding wrote:

Matt O'Toole wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:

Like those horrible, "door zone" bike lanes in Amherst?

The ones through downtown Amherst are sort of narrow, although
the ones leading south ward actually lead to the right side of
the middle (straight ahead) lane rather than veering off to
the right side of the intersection. That's unusual in my
experience.

Not with well-designed ones on wide roads, like in CA. Bike lanes there
typically leave enough room for a right turn lane to the right. This is the way
it should be. Of course, many roads are simply not wide enough.

Lately I've been just waiting in line with the cars to go straight through the
intersection, rather than risk being right hooked at the corner, or trying to
beat the first car across the intersection. So I guess I'm making the point of
the anti-bike-lane people -- if this is the easiest way to ride on such streets,
why have a bike lane at all?

The marked bike lanes going along Rt 9 and Smith College seem
to be quite wide enough. The only objection to them from the
biking community that I've heard is that they don't go far
enough. They fizzle out at the end of Smith College.

But the road is plenty wide with or without them, so it really
doesn't matter whether they are there are not for me. But to
many bicyclists, they seemed to have a calming effect on getting
bikes and motor traffic to "get along". Maybe it's just me.

No, it really does seem to work. I saw a study of a road where bike lanes were
added, and traffic slowed because of it. I think this is typical with a
downtown-style street. However, I'm told that new bike lanes or fog lines can
increase speeds on highways at night, because the lines make it easier to see
the road.

Because of this, and the previous point, I'm liking those bicycle symbols
stenciled in the street, instead of striped bike lanes.

Making cars inconvenient can certainly spur bicycle use, but that's
not the best answer. The real problem is over-reliance on
transportation itself. The answer to that is in urban planning --
discouraging developers from moving to the outskirts of town, to
build more sprawly, cul-de-sacky, auto-dependent slumburbia.

I very much agree. I think there has been a dawning realization
that the way we do cities and suburbs makes for generally people
unfriendly environment. It's great for the cars, but not really
so good for people.

Again, look at where the highest land values are, and note how many
more bicycles there are than in the typical American suburb. Being
able to walk and bike to work/school/shopping, etc. is a *luxury,*
for which many people are willing to pay *lots.* Go over to
Northampton, and note the home prices within walking distance of
downtown. One could argue that living there would be *less*
convenient for the typical, auto-dependent American. So there must
be value in walkable, bikeable neighborhoods.

Absolutely true again. Interestingly, initial resistance toward
the bike path in 'Hamp centered on fears of buglars carrying off
family jewels (by bike??) or people stealing corn and potatoes
from the fields (the Norwottuck bike path across the valley;
again, by bike???).

Now a home near the bike path actually is a selling point!

Boy, you'd really have to be hungry to steal potatoes or corn!

We've had the same issue here. Initially, there's much resistance to the bike
paths, but once they're in, everyone seems to love them. Again, some of the
most expensive homes here are right along one of the trails. When we're out
riding, someone always seems to comment, "Wouldn't it be great to have one of
these houses right here? Oh well, I could never afford it..."

Where do you ride Matt? You seem very familiar with my pedaling
grounds.

Southwest VA -- Blacksburg, home of VA Tech. In many ways it's a lot like your
area, but with less culture and better weather. Hillier, too.

My brother lives in Northampton. I've been there a few times to visit. Love
it. I'll be up there again on the 18th, for a week, and again in September.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole wrote:
Absolutely true again. Interestingly, initial resistance toward
the bike path in 'Hamp centered on fears of buglars carrying off
family jewels (by bike??) or people stealing corn and potatoes
from the fields (the Norwottuck bike path across the valley;
again, by bike???).

Now a home near the bike path actually is a selling point!

We've had the same issue here. Initially, there's much resistance to the bike
paths, but once they're in, everyone seems to love them. Again, some of the
most expensive homes here are right along one of the trails. When we're out
riding, someone always seems to comment, "Wouldn't it be great to have one of
these houses right here? Oh well, I could never afford it..."

From what I hear, this is *always* the case when such a path is
proposed. One can only wonder where all those bike thief stories come
from...


(And let's not forget all the terrorists who might travel on bike.)
--
Frederic Briere *

= IS NO MO http://www.abacomsucks.com =

Matt O'Toole wrote:
Stephen Harding wrote:


Matt O'Toole wrote:

Where do you ride Matt? You seem very familiar with my pedaling
grounds.

Southwest VA -- Blacksburg, home of VA Tech. In many ways it's a lot like your
area, but with less culture and better weather. Hillier, too.

Yes I'm familiar with the Blacksburg area. My brother used
to go to Radford not too far away.

Definitely hillier than around here, unless you pedal off a
little distance west into the Berkshires.

My brother lives in Northampton. I've been there a few times to visit. Love
it. I'll be up there again on the 18th, for a week, and again in September.

If you've got your bike with you, take a ride up to Old
Deerfield along the western edge of the valley. Come
back along the river via Sunderland and Hatfield.

About 40 miles and the best ride in the area IMHO.


SMH

Stephen Harding wrote:

If you've got your bike with you, take a ride up to Old
Deerfield along the western edge of the valley. Come
back along the river via Sunderland and Hatfield.

About 40 miles and the best ride in the area IMHO.

I'll definately check it out!

I bought a book, "Backroad Bicycling in Western Massachusetts," by Andi Marie
Cantelle, 2002. It looks like a great resource, with some nice 40 mile loops,
etc.

I hope I'll have my road bike (crashed last week, awaiting repair/replacement).

Matt O.

Collin wrote in part:

... Starting in the fifties, everyone believed there
would be two cars in each garage, and the concept of bicycles for
transportation disappeared. ...

Starting in the twenties!

That's when the first car-based suburbs were built,
attached garages instead of carriage houses, malls on
the outskirts of town, strips, parking lots. Lawns were
old school by then, and so were suburbs for that
matter, it's just that folks used rails to get there,
and those first suburbs are now in the heart of the
city. In the twenties began the push to rip out the
streetcar systems which were in place in every city in
North America, to make room for cars. This project
was complete by the '60's.

By the late twenties, the only adults riding bikes were
racers and fools. Kids bikes had fake gas tanks or
were made to look like airplanes.

In the fifties, the **** really hit the fan with massive
spending for highways ("Defense Highwys," mind you), including ill-advised
urban
highway projects, and federal home loan guarantees and postwar prosperity which
sparked the Stepford
suburbs where I and so many others eventually grew
up and rode wheelies.

Robert