#11
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Handlebar rotation
On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 7:13:18 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-04 16:38, John B. wrote: On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:15:59 -0700, "Mark J." wrote: On 7/4/2017 4:05 AM, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Handlebar shapes definitely changed, though subtly. Compare a Cinelli "Giro d'Italia" or especially a "Campione del Mundo" bar from the 80's with a modern bar. Brake levers changed dramatically around 90-95 with the addition of shifters to the brake levers. I think their geometry tends to suit the later position you mention. Their use strongly encourages riding on top of the hoods, which (IMHO) is more comfortable when they "extend the top flat section of the bars." Perhaps separately, style changed (which may have been for legitimate mechanical/biomechanical reasons, but that's never been necessary for a change.) Mark J. I think that you may have hit the nail on the head, as it were. I hadn't thought that the change to flatter bars did coincide, at least to some extent, with the change to "brifters" which would be awkward to use with the old "bars twisted down" position. Though the rider in the 2001 video at, for example, 1:04 min seems to have classic downtube shifters. The bar is still slanted but the hoods are formed such that his hands rest flat like on new flatter bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Those guys are bookin |
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#13
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Handlebar rotation
On 7/4/2017 7:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads. But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars, and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much flatter setup. Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50 years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore? I took a quick look at your videos. Sorry, I'm not willing to sit through that much video time; but here's some speculation: First, hand position during a race varies, depending on what's occurring. An all-out high speed effort will have the rider somewhere on the drops, so the shape of the tops or hoods is pretty unimportant during those critical moments. Riders cruising in a pack will have a different posture, and are more likely to be on hoods or tops. So if you're comparing footage from different races, make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Second, brifters did make a big difference. The mechanism takes up more room than a simple brake lever, which changed the shape of the hoods. Once the shape needs changed, it gets more attention, as in "How can we make this shape better?" And riders probably spent more time on the hoods because they could shift from there. That probably led to more attention to the shape of the hoods, and lent more importance to the shape of the bars approaching the hoods. Also, the 1970s saw a general surge in interest in ergonomics. This probably had an effect. Third, I suspect that manufacturing techniques improved. 1970s and earlier handlebars were simple tubes with simple bends. I'd bet more sophisticated manufacturing techniques allowed experimenting with shapes that would have been too difficult in the older days. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#14
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Handlebar rotation
On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 12:40:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 9:55:08 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2017-07-05 08:25, wrote: On Wednesday, July 5, 2017 at 7:08:01 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For example, computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years ago. And they still sell the old style. Probably the industry didn't react until enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel problems. On B52's the Bomb/Nav system would set the cross-hairs on the target with a "joy stick" which was shaped as the name would imply. You could set the cross hairs on the target and hold them there and the bombing computer would automatically compensate for wind and the effects it was having on the aircraft. When I designed a robotic chemical placement mechanism with a computer interface I designed a joystick into it. The mechanical engineer constructed this as a light weight plastic structure. The end result was that you had to hold the base of the joystick in one hand while setting the cross-hairs on each vial to be moved from point A to point B. This was pretty clumsy so Dr. Michael McCown removed the top of the mechanism so that the gears that moved the variable resisters were showing. He tipped this upside down and would use it just like a mouse. That's a smart way to "fix" the design. I'd probably have screwed or glued it down to some thick steel plate, something I have done to a lot of things that I didn't want to slide about. The "feet" were usually bicycle tube snippets. At this time there were no mice. Not a long time after than mice showed up on the scene. I don't know if it was my and Dr. McCown's cooperation improved or if someone else came up with that independently but I do know that Dr. McCown most certainly was the first to be using a mouse-like mechanism. Was it before 1964? http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/te...ies-at-88.html That is extremely odd - that wooden thing looks exactly like our plastic version. You can see the X-Y coordinate wheels. Ours were plastic gears but almost identical in composition. It is not odd. It is what Jung calls synchronicity. |
#15
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Handlebar rotation
On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:08:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2017-07-04 16:33, John B. wrote: On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads. But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars, and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much flatter setup. It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For example, computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years ago. And they still sell the old style. Probably the industry didn't react until enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel problems. I switched to a trackball within my first year because I thought this can't be good. I was using a computer long before a "mouse" was anything but a tiny creature and I've yet to develop carpal tunnel problems. Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50 years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore? Who knows :-) It took the bicycle industry a whopping 100 years and they still haven't figured out a good electrical system. Unless you build your own like I do. Amazing! Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course, do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the 'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA. Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding without Joerg built lights. -- Cheers, John B. |
#16
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Handlebar rotation
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#17
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Handlebar rotation
On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:13:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2017-07-04 16:38, John B. wrote: On Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:15:59 -0700, "Mark J." wrote: On 7/4/2017 4:05 AM, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Handlebar shapes definitely changed, though subtly. Compare a Cinelli "Giro d'Italia" or especially a "Campione del Mundo" bar from the 80's with a modern bar. Brake levers changed dramatically around 90-95 with the addition of shifters to the brake levers. I think their geometry tends to suit the later position you mention. Their use strongly encourages riding on top of the hoods, which (IMHO) is more comfortable when they "extend the top flat section of the bars." Perhaps separately, style changed (which may have been for legitimate mechanical/biomechanical reasons, but that's never been necessary for a change.) Mark J. I think that you may have hit the nail on the head, as it were. I hadn't thought that the change to flatter bars did coincide, at least to some extent, with the change to "brifters" which would be awkward to use with the old "bars twisted down" position. Though the rider in the 2001 video at, for example, 1:04 min seems to have classic downtube shifters. The bar is still slanted but the hoods are formed such that his hands rest flat like on new flatter bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw Yes, noticeably the two leaders #23 and #97 were using "brifters" and the modern bar position but in very early shots there seemed to be other riders using the old style bars. In addition other photos from 2001, the 2001 TdeF, shows all the leaders using the "new style" bars. -- Cheers, John B. |
#18
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Handlebar rotation
On Wed, 5 Jul 2017 16:14:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 7/4/2017 7:33 PM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads. But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars, and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much flatter setup. Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50 years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore? I took a quick look at your videos. Sorry, I'm not willing to sit through that much video time; but here's some speculation: First, hand position during a race varies, depending on what's occurring. An all-out high speed effort will have the rider somewhere on the drops, so the shape of the tops or hoods is pretty unimportant during those critical moments. Riders cruising in a pack will have a different posture, and are more likely to be on hoods or tops. So if you're comparing footage from different races, make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Certainly. But I was commenting on the style of bars, very turned down with the brake levers mounted approximately "half way round the bend" in early days versus very flat with the "tops" essentially level with high mounted brake levers later in the evolution. Second, brifters did make a big difference. The mechanism takes up more room than a simple brake lever, which changed the shape of the hoods. I think that this was probably the determining factor. Once the shape needs changed, it gets more attention, as in "How can we make this shape better?" And riders probably spent more time on the hoods because they could shift from there. That probably led to more attention to the shape of the hoods, and lent more importance to the shape of the bars approaching the hoods. Also, the 1970s saw a general surge in interest in ergonomics. This probably had an effect. Given the foibles of modern marketing I would suggest that the determining factor was ""How can we make this shape different?" Third, I suspect that manufacturing techniques improved. 1970s and earlier handlebars were simple tubes with simple bends. I'd bet more sophisticated manufacturing techniques allowed experimenting with shapes that would have been too difficult in the older days. -- Cheers, John B. |
#19
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Handlebar rotation
On 7/5/2017 7:49 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:08:02 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-07-04 16:33, John B. wrote: On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads. But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars, and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much flatter setup. It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For example, computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years ago. And they still sell the old style. Probably the industry didn't react until enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel problems. I switched to a trackball within my first year because I thought this can't be good. I was using a computer long before a "mouse" was anything but a tiny creature and I've yet to develop carpal tunnel problems. Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50 years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore? Who knows :-) It took the bicycle industry a whopping 100 years and they still haven't figured out a good electrical system. Unless you build your own like I do. Amazing! Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course, do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the 'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA. Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding without Joerg built lights. But it's not safe! Every one of the 1891 PBP riders is dead! -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#20
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Handlebar rotation
On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 20:34:20 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/5/2017 7:49 PM, John B. wrote: On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 07:08:02 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-07-04 16:33, John B. wrote: On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 07:52:14 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-07-04 04:05, John B. wrote: I was looking at photos and you tube films of bicycle racing during the 70's and 80's and it seems that the handle bars were at a very different position then in more recent times. Example: Eddie Marckx time trial 1974, note the downward twist of the handle bars. with the brake levers mounted at almost the center of the "U" bend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvJSB4gAq3o During a race in 1977 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEAlxGC4Kzg In 1987, still turned down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM In 1990 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eojc3AKSWGE in 1994 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtBetiDPPfg In 2001 what may be an intermediate position https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqIVanqbuw In 2007 note how much flatter the bars are with the brake levers fixed almost as an extension of the top flat section of the bars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbB2O0SmwJw I am wondering. From the revival of bicycle racing in 1946 until the very late 1990's or early 2000's, some 50 years, handle bar position amongst the top riders was very similar with the top of the bars turned down and the bottom "drops" nearly level and then it all changed with the top section of the bars level, or nearly so and the drops angled downward. What happened? Did bicycle geometry suddenly change. Did bicycles get better? Were handlebars suddenly a different shape? Maybe riders complained of wrist pain? My bike from 1982 has the downward drop up top like in your older links. I can't ride it on the hoods for too long because then the wrists hurt from having to twist them too far. Especially on rough roads or dirt/gravel roads. But for almost fifty years, and maybe even longer (I didn't search for pre-WW II photos) top riders used essentially the same style of bars, and relatively suddenly they all seemed to have changed to a much flatter setup. It can take a long time to notice adverse health effects. For example, computer mice were not very ergonomical until 10-15 years ago. And they still sell the old style. Probably the industry didn't react until enough people developed hardcore carpal tunnel problems. I switched to a trackball within my first year because I thought this can't be good. I was using a computer long before a "mouse" was anything but a tiny creature and I've yet to develop carpal tunnel problems. Are bicycle riders somehow mentally deficient that it takes them 50 years to figure out why their wrists are getting sore? Who knows :-) It took the bicycle industry a whopping 100 years and they still haven't figured out a good electrical system. Unless you build your own like I do. Amazing! Yet people have been riding long distances on bicycles for years and years. The first Paris - Brest - Paris randonnée was held in 1891. An essentially non-stop bicycle ride of 1,200 km. The British, of course, do it better with the 1433 km London Edinburgh London 2017 and the 'mericans have the Boston-Montreal-Boston, again a 1,200 km ride but no longer an official randonnée and now strictly a permanent that anyone could ride on their own in a self-supported manner while still receiving recognition (validation) from Randonneurs USA. Think of it, 126 years of successful long distance bicycle riding without Joerg built lights. But it's not safe! Every one of the 1891 PBP riders is dead! Well, of course. After all they didn't wear their bicycling helmets. -- Cheers, John B. |
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