#61
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Chain Lube?
On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 15:06:45 +0700, John B. Slocomb wrote:
I really wonder about the reference to difficult shifting as I've used wax on bikes that had (1) down tube friction shifters, (2) Shimano Brifters, and (3) both indexed and friction bar end shifters, and frankly I never noticed any difficulties in shifting with any shifter system. But in thinking about it, I would suggest that if it did make shifting difficult it is probably because the wax, having penetrated the links and rollers of the chain, that the chain is now stiffer, more rigid, then a chain that is not wax lubricated. The only thing that made sense to me that it had to be some custom concoction made almost of candle wax allowed to congeal in large lumps. The commercial stuff I use is noticeably stiffer when first applied for about a mile, then its outstand ability is its rain resistance for days before a smear of oil makes a difference. I've never noticed any difficulty in gear shifting. |
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#62
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Chain Lube?
On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 13:25:24 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:50:35 +0700, John B. slocomb wrote: I guess that you didn't read that very well. I said "a mix of petroleum lubricants and a light carrier which evaporated leaving a greasy residue". Which part of "evaporated leaving a greasy residue" did you miss. I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment, rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula - much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot wax did penetrate the links I did much the same thing, but not as neatly as your method. When I tried it, I ran into a problem. The space between the side plates and the sleeve accumulated a fair amount of oil. When I extracted the pins, the would slid THROUGH this accumulation of oil and coat the pin. Inspection of the pin and sleeve appeared to show that they were coated with oil (using a UV die marker). However, I couldn't be sure if it was originally transported by solvent evaporation, capillary action, or just smeared onto the parts during pin extraction. I just conjured a method that I think will remove the smearing problem from the test. Remove one side plate from a length of chain leaving two pins and one side plate. Remove all oil with solvent. We don't have MEK in Calif thanks to the VoC ban, so I guess it will paint thinner or something else. Make sure that the pins and plate will initially fall out with no oil and when inverted. The pins may need some tweaking to insure that they're both centered in the sleeves. Presumably, if there's oil all over the pins and sleeves, the viscosity of the oil cause the pins and plate to take much longer to fall out when inverted. I haven't worked out a plan yet to eliminate the smearing problem, but I think just wiping the area around the missing side plate, and just inverting the assembly will be sufficient. I'll be running this test in about a week. If you could disclose the lube and solvent mix that you used, I will try to use the same stuff. Otherwise, something cheap that evaporates easily, a suitable petroleum grease, and a UV tracer should be adequate for now. I can try the wax test later. A day late but we were in Bangkok for a couple of days :-) The hydro-carbon stuff I used to use is made by CRC Industries and is called "TAC2 Adhesive Lubricant". You can google it at https://crcindustries.com.au/product...300g-5035.html The procedure I used was to soak the chain in a solvent bath over night and then to re wash it until no more grime was seen, rinse in either alcohol or MEK - depending on what I had to hand - then hang the chain up until it dried. Then lay the chain out (on newspapers) on it's back, as it were, with the rollers horizontal and spray the chain with the lubricant... wait a bit for the stuff to dry a bit, turn the chain over and spray the other side and let that dry. Then roll the chain up and store it in a "ziplok" bag until needed. It sounds like a lot of work but really it isn't. When I wash the bike I take the chain off and toss it in a container of solvent and go on with what I was doing. The next day I discard the solvent and slosh some more in the container and continue with whatever I am doing that day. A while later I inspect the chain and if clean I rinse in some form of thinner and let it dry. Then lay it out and spray the lubricant. My guess is that the longest part of the operation is spraying the lubricant - pssssh, wait a bit and pssssh :-) The wax lube is similar. Wash and rinse (to get the solvent off) then dunk in the melted wax for at least one and more likely two or three thermostat cycles and fish it out and hang it up to allow the excess wax to drip off, then store it away until I need it. Rather then worry about whether the wax/oil/grease penetrates I just ride the bike. The chain doesn't squeak, doesn't rust, wears so little that after a year of use it is still well within wear limits and independent tests have shown that there is the least power loss using a wax mixture.... what's not to like :-? The TAC2 is at roughly room temperature while the wax mixture is something over 100 degrees (C). Molykote® D-321 R Anti-Friction Coating https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny6JwtnDyag (1:55) Looks like it was designed for dusty environments. What I would like to try is a chain where the pin or sleeve have a spiral groove cut along its length to "pump" oil through the bearing. Just keep adding oil to lubricate. When it's time to clean the chain, just remove the chain, reverse the direction of rotation, and the accumulated grease and crud will be pushed out the direction it arrived. Why bother? A constant drip chain oiler will keep the chain lubricated and clean without going to all sorts of complicated rigmarole. The idea was to help clear the chain from old oil and help pump fresh oil into the pin and sleeve area. I too have my doubts that it would be worthwhile doing, but I thought it might be interesting to try. I can assure you that a working drip oiler will keep the chain clean... assuming that it drips frequently enough. In my miss-spent youth I had them on several motorcycles and they worked great :- I will say though that if they get the rear tire all oily then \ they are probably are set too rich. Harley Davidson used them on both front and rear chains for years. cheers, John B. |
#63
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Chain Lube?
On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers. "PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." |
#64
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Chain Lube?
On 11/17/2018 3:25 PM, sms wrote:
It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." How often do you clean and re-lubricate your chain? How long does it take? How often do you clean the black junk off your rear cogs? And the derailleur jockey pulleys? and the chainrings and front derailleur and frame? And what do you do to keep chain grease off your non-cycling clothing? Give us details, please. For me, I re-wax the chain while it's on the bike. It takes maybe ten minutes and lasts maybe 500 miles, as a guess. I essentially never clean my rear cluster because it doesn't get black gunk all over it. Ditto the derailleur pulleys, chainrings, etc. If I really want to shine things up, I may wipe some of those bits with a couple paper towels. I never clean the black stuff off my chainstays, dropouts, etc. because there isn't any black stuff. I clean my bikes typically once per year, yet they don't look dirty. (Most of the cleaning is literally dusting, including using Pledge wax.) I never had to worry about riding to work in khaki trousers. If they brushed against the chain at its dirtiest, the smudge would be barely visible. Counting all the above work, I _very_ much doubt your chain-related cleaning and maintenance takes less time than mine. Really, the main reason you think you know so much about wax chain lubrication disadvantages is this: You don't use it. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#65
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Chain Lube?
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms
wrote: On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers. "PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before, but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the dark and dismal depths of the chain? After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the top. I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam, from oil before forcing it down a pipeline. As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain waxing"? After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain, that described in detain how the test was made. cheers, John B. |
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Chain Lube?
On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms wrote: On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers. "PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before, but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the dark and dismal depths of the chain? After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the top. I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam, from oil before forcing it down a pipeline. As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain waxing"? After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain, that described in detain how the test was made. cheers, John B. John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. |
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Chain Lube?
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#68
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Chain Lube?
On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 2:41:09 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/17/2018 3:25 PM, sms wrote: It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." How often do you clean and re-lubricate your chain? How long does it take? How often do you clean the black junk off your rear cogs? And the derailleur jockey pulleys? and the chainrings and front derailleur and frame? And what do you do to keep chain grease off your non-cycling clothing? Give us details, please. For me, I re-wax the chain while it's on the bike. It takes maybe ten minutes and lasts maybe 500 miles, as a guess. I essentially never clean my rear cluster because it doesn't get black gunk all over it. Ditto the derailleur pulleys, chainrings, etc. If I really want to shine things up, I may wipe some of those bits with a couple paper towels. I never clean the black stuff off my chainstays, dropouts, etc. because there isn't any black stuff. I clean my bikes typically once per year, yet they don't look dirty. (Most of the cleaning is literally dusting, including using Pledge wax.) I never had to worry about riding to work in khaki trousers. If they brushed against the chain at its dirtiest, the smudge would be barely visible. Counting all the above work, I _very_ much doubt your chain-related cleaning and maintenance takes less time than mine. Really, the main reason you think you know so much about wax chain lubrication disadvantages is this: You don't use it. -- - Frank Krygowski I have taken the chain off of the bike and heated it in an oven to a pretty warm temperature (you have to use gloves to handle it) and melted the chain wax in hot water. Application of this STILL doesn't get the wax inside of the rollers and despite the chain running pretty quiet it wears rapidly and deposits that wax all over the cassette and the new cassettes with many of the cogs fixed together are extremely difficult to clean. I've also used a Park "chain cleaner" from using various solvents to clean the chain to the point where there is no lubricant anywhere on the chain. Relubing with most chain lubes will not get the lubricant inside of the rollers and again the chain wears much more rapidly than normal The first third of the year I was unable to ride for many reasons such as cataract surgery and then having to take my brother into the doctor every day for a month concerning his glaucoma surgery. Then a month of heavy rains etc. So I only have a little more than 4,000 miles this year but I have almost 170,000 feet of climbing all over 5%. So I appreciate les time maintaining the chain which Rock and Roll provides. |
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Chain Lube?
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