Experiment determines drivers do not see 22% of cyclists in clearview.

On 29/05/15 06:49, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 8:56:59 PM UTC+1, James wrote:

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists"

To me it means ride very defensively, keep a close eye on them and
try to anticipate their moves, and have an escape plan. I ride in
a prominent position in the hope they will see me. Mostly they
do, however twice recently, despite riding in a prominent position
on the road in broad day light and contrasty clothes, I had drivers
come from side roads on my right who turned on to the street in the
same direction of travel as me - right in front of me, such that I
had to take evasive action to avoid a collision. I believe their
view of me was blocked by the left side A pillar.

-- JS

Automobike manufacturers are aware of the visibility problems caused
by thick windshield and other pillars. Here's Jaguar's solution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c98h41TkREA

Still not going to do cyclists much good if the driver is careless or
distracted by his phone...

Andre Jute


Yes, I've noted there are efforts to improve visibility, and yes
distraction seems to be a mounting problem, with additional distraction
sources these days. Once upon a time the biggest distraction, aside
from passengers, was the car radio. I know of a few who killed them
selves turning a tape over, for example.

--
JS

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 7:13:11 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 4:21:51 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Today I did a club ride (retirement is nice!), about 25 miles on mostly
narrow rural roads, plus a state highway or two. About a dozen riders.
I don't think there was a moment when we didn't control the lane, i.e.
ride near lane center, often two abreast. We suffered zero close
passes, and I believe every motorist went as far left as possible to
pass us.

No, it's not always 100%. About two weeks ago I led a club ride and had
one pickup truck driver (with a "handicapped" plate) deliberately pass
me with about a foot of clearance, despite having an open left lane on
the low-traffic four-lane road. Jerks exist. But even in that case, my
leftward position gave me room to move right if I'd really needed it.

If I'd ridden a foot from the gutter - default position for many
cyclists - I would probably have endured many more passes about that
close. The difference would have been that those motorists wouldn't
have thought they were doing anything wrong.


--
- Frank Krygowski

As you often ask, where's the proof that if you were not lane center you'd have been in danger. You say, "I belive..." yet many times you ask others for empiracal prrof that their belief is fact.

Well, here's some video showing the difference in behavior between riding more
toward the right, vs. riding more prominently:
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...e-positioning/
At about 2 minutes, you'll see the closer passes from riding further right.

Here are some sources of advice:
http://azbikelaw.org/blog/where-to-ride-on-the-road/

Here's another, with a graphic showing some data on passing clearance vs.
cyclist lane position. You may want to blow up the graphic and study it.
Some people find it tricky to interpret.
http://isocrates.us/bike/2011/07/lane-positioning-101/


In many locales riding in the center of a lane in traffic for any distance is very likely to have very unpleasant results for many bicyclists.

Yeah, I know. Danger! Danger!

Alos, in many locales it is against the law to ride lane center if it impedes traffic and it's also against the law to ride two abreast a t any time.

In (almost?) every state, two abreast riding is legal, since the typical
statute prohibits "more than two abreast." And in my state (and many others)
it's _specifically_ legal for cyclists to control the lane when the lane is
too narrow to be safely shared.*

IIRC, you're in Canada. Perhaps my statewide cycling advocacy organization
has done a better job than yours?

*BTW, on my way to a club ride last week, I was at the center of a narrow lane,
and a guy in an SUV blared his horn at me. When it was clear, he passed me,
then pulled into a plaza parking lot.

Since I had time, I pulled in after him and asked "Were you having trouble
with your horn?"

He said "You have to give room to pass."

I said "Actually, state law 4511.55 says a bicyclist is allowed to ride at
lane center when the lane's too narrow to share."

He said "Oh. I didn't know that. My mistake, then."

- Frank Krygowski

On 28/05/2015 8:20 PM, James wrote:
On 29/05/15 06:49, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 8:56:59 PM UTC+1, James wrote:

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists"

To me it means ride very defensively, keep a close eye on them and
try to anticipate their moves, and have an escape plan. I ride in
a prominent position in the hope they will see me. Mostly they
do, however twice recently, despite riding in a prominent position
on the road in broad day light and contrasty clothes, I had drivers
come from side roads on my right who turned on to the street in the
same direction of travel as me - right in front of me, such that I
had to take evasive action to avoid a collision. I believe their
view of me was blocked by the left side A pillar.

-- JS

Automobike manufacturers are aware of the visibility problems caused
by thick windshield and other pillars. Here's Jaguar's solution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c98h41TkREA

Still not going to do cyclists much good if the driver is careless or
distracted by his phone...

Andre Jute


Yes, I've noted there are efforts to improve visibility, and yes
distraction seems to be a mounting problem, with additional distraction
sources these days. Once upon a time the biggest distraction, aside
from passengers, was the car radio. I know of a few who killed them
selves turning a tape over, for example.


8-tracks eating your tape used to be a common cause of rear enders.
Cell phones and gps devices seem to be more significant though. I don't
get why people can't wait until they are at least at a stop light to
reply to a freaking text message. A guy here was on the news today for
contesting a ticket he got because he was using his apple watch to
change tunes. His argument is that the law specifies hand held
telephones. So he'll get off and the law will change to include it.
But wtf?

On 28/05/2015 7:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 8:32:54 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 23:56:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/27/2015 1:56 PM, wrote:
Ride like you're invisible to motorists

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into view?

"Ride in a prominent, conspicuous road position, one that makes you
visible" is a lot more reasonable. In addition to drawing attention and
generating early notice, a prominent road position also gives you a lot
more escape room should something go wrong.

http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...e-positioning/

I suspect that the "Ride like you're invisible to motorists"
suggestion actually means something more like "ride like the motorist
doesn't notice you while texting, applying makeup, etc."

FWIW, this has been discussed on various (and more serious) bike
education forums that I'm part of.

"Ride like your invisible" is most often interpreted as "Stay completely
out of the way no matter what. Ride in the gutter, or better yet on the
sidewalk. Ride facing traffic so you can bail out in the grass if a car
comes at you." And so on. It pretty clearly says "Act as if you have
no right to the road." It sends precisely the wrong message.

Your suggestion to ride in a conspicuous road position relies on the
driver being aware of his surroundings, which apparently isn't always
true given the large number of auto accidents where the driver says "I
didn't see him/it".

Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.

Review the article and video in the link above. Or check out this one:
http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/...sesame-street/

If that woman had taken Jute's advice literally, she probably would have
been riding to the right of the right-turn-only lane at the video's
beginning. She certainly would have been skimming the curb on other
sections of the road; and motorists would have been skimming her left elbow.

If someone said "Keep alert for motorist mistakes," I certainly wouldn't
object. I do that all the time. But pretending invisibility simply
makes no sense. It stinks even as a joke.

I suggest that it is largely a matter of semantics. "Ride like you are
invisible" can be interpreted equally well as "ride like they don't
see you", which is a pretty sensible attitude, as if they don't see
you then "taking the lane" could also be translated as "Suicide".

I've always felt and suggested that when something is larger than you,
faster than you, more powerful than you and harder than you that it
behooves you to avoid this thing.

Not hope that the thing will avoid you.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Like when you are approaching a narrow bridge, an 18 wheeler is barreling down on you, you're lane centre but the 18 wheeler isn't slowing so just before you get onto the bridge you elect to leave the lane so's not to have that run down feeling, you then get told that a, you should have stayed lane center as the 18 wheel would have slowed so's not to run you over, and b, that you're "a scardy ct and shouldn't be riding in traffic because you elected to bail rather than stay in the lane". Never mind that the 18 wheeler just missed hitting you as it was.

Cheers


Yeah but you're talking about one opinionated troll that there's no
point responding to. And anyway if you followed that advice and were
killed you would be written off as an insignificant statistic and any
argument to the contrary would bring up Danger! Danger! rants and more
bull**** statistical misinterpretations and miles traveled and walking
helmets and all sorts of other nonsense.

IMO if you think that truck isn't stopping you need to deal with that
the best way you know how and also IMO letting him go is probably the
best choice.

On Thu, 28 May 2015 16:12:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/28/2015 8:32 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 23:56:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into view?
...

If someone said "Keep alert for motorist mistakes," I certainly wouldn't
object. I do that all the time. But pretending invisibility simply
makes no sense. It stinks even as a joke.

I suggest that it is largely a matter of semantics. "Ride like you are
invisible" can be interpreted equally well as "ride like they don't
see you", which is a pretty sensible attitude...

I spent decades as a teacher. When one is trying to teach something -
whether engineering, music, bicycling or whatever - semantics make a big
difference. Catch phrases like the one under discussion really do tend
to stick in student's minds and get replayed as an aid to quick
decisions. It's important those catch phrases generate the right
behavior. And again, "Ride like you're invisible" can generate behavior
that's precisely wrong.

... as if they don't see
you then "taking the lane" could also be translated as "Suicide".

I think some people imagine "taking the lane" as "swoop left in front of
a motorist at the last minute." That might be suicide, and is
specifically prohibited by good cycling education materials, as well as
state laws. The idea is to be in a prominent road position before the
motor vehicle approaches. It greatly reduces the "don't see you"
events, which is one of its main points.

I've always felt and suggested that when something is larger than you,
faster than you, more powerful than you and harder than you that it
behooves you to avoid this thing.

Not hope that the thing will avoid you.

Once again, the question is: Ten foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. Where do
you ride? If you try to avoid it by skimming the pavement edge, you
signal to the trucker that it's fine to brush your elbow and squeeze past.

No thanks. I've tried both tactics; I know what works better.

I see what you are typing but you seem to use the refrain "take the
lane" like a mantra. Keep repeating it and you'll be all right. But
what about taking the lane on a highway where the motor vehicles are
traveling at. say 80 - 100 KPH?

They come over the hill or around the corner and there you are..,
right in the middle of the lane pedaling along at 20 kph.

About a 22 Mtr/sec differential velocity. They come over the hill and
you are 100 meters ahead and they have 4.5 seconds to (1) notice you
and (2) decide what to do. If it is a lady refreshing her lip gloss,
looking in the rear view mirror, well, say a couple of seconds to
apply and sort of mash the lips together, another couple of second to
blot with the tissue and take a final look and you are 0.5 seconds
from Nirvana. A bit of a frown and the thought, "Whatever is that
right in the middle of the road? A Bicycle?" and you are just a
receding picture in the rear view mirror.

And, from what I read, this is not a rare event in the U.S. I read
that over 70% of U.S. drivers surveyed admitted to texting, reading
e-mail, applying makeup or reading the newspaper while driving.

"Oh, I didn't see him", while perhaps not a valid excuse seems to
becoming a common excuse.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 28 May 2015 16:13:09 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 4:21:51 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/28/2015 10:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 8:56:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
snip

Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.


Although passing clearance often has nothing to do with road position.
I have been passed closely while riding lane center -- taking the entire
lane. Numerous times. Taking the lane makes sense in places, but it is no
guaranty of safe passes.

Really, nothing is 100% guaranteed. All one can do is arrange to put
the odds in one's favor.

Today I did a club ride (retirement is nice!), about 25 miles on mostly
narrow rural roads, plus a state highway or two. About a dozen riders.
I don't think there was a moment when we didn't control the lane, i.e.
ride near lane center, often two abreast. We suffered zero close
passes, and I believe every motorist went as far left as possible to
pass us.

No, it's not always 100%. About two weeks ago I led a club ride and had
one pickup truck driver (with a "handicapped" plate) deliberately pass
me with about a foot of clearance, despite having an open left lane on
the low-traffic four-lane road. Jerks exist. But even in that case, my
leftward position gave me room to move right if I'd really needed it.

If I'd ridden a foot from the gutter - default position for many
cyclists - I would probably have endured many more passes about that
close. The difference would have been that those motorists wouldn't
have thought they were doing anything wrong.


--
- Frank Krygowski

As you often ask, where's the proof that if you were not lane center you'd have been in danger. You say, "I belive..." yet many times you ask others for empiracal prrof that their belief is fact.

In many locales riding in the center of a lane in traffic for any distance is very likely to have very unpleasant results for many bicyclists.

Alos, in many locales it is against the law to ride lane center if it impedes traffic and it's also against the law to ride two abreast a t any time.

cheers

I have nor read every state's traffic regulations but the three I did
read all stated that "thou shall not impede other traffic" (in
Biblical terms :-) so while the three states did specifically state
that bicycles had a right to use the road none of them gave the
bicycle a right to impede other users.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 29/05/2015 9:06 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 16:12:37 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/28/2015 8:32 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 23:56:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

"Ride like you're invisible to motorists" is obviously nonsense. What
would you do - come to a stop every time a motor vehicle comes into view?
...

If someone said "Keep alert for motorist mistakes," I certainly wouldn't
object. I do that all the time. But pretending invisibility simply
makes no sense. It stinks even as a joke.

I suggest that it is largely a matter of semantics. "Ride like you are
invisible" can be interpreted equally well as "ride like they don't
see you", which is a pretty sensible attitude...

I spent decades as a teacher. When one is trying to teach something -
whether engineering, music, bicycling or whatever - semantics make a big
difference. Catch phrases like the one under discussion really do tend
to stick in student's minds and get replayed as an aid to quick
decisions. It's important those catch phrases generate the right
behavior. And again, "Ride like you're invisible" can generate behavior
that's precisely wrong.

... as if they don't see
you then "taking the lane" could also be translated as "Suicide".

I think some people imagine "taking the lane" as "swoop left in front of
a motorist at the last minute." That might be suicide, and is
specifically prohibited by good cycling education materials, as well as
state laws. The idea is to be in a prominent road position before the
motor vehicle approaches. It greatly reduces the "don't see you"
events, which is one of its main points.

I've always felt and suggested that when something is larger than you,
faster than you, more powerful than you and harder than you that it
behooves you to avoid this thing.

Not hope that the thing will avoid you.

Once again, the question is: Ten foot lane, 8.5 foot truck. Where do
you ride? If you try to avoid it by skimming the pavement edge, you
signal to the trucker that it's fine to brush your elbow and squeeze past.

No thanks. I've tried both tactics; I know what works better.

I see what you are typing but you seem to use the refrain "take the
lane" like a mantra. Keep repeating it and you'll be all right. But
what about taking the lane on a highway where the motor vehicles are
traveling at. say 80 - 100 KPH?

They come over the hill or around the corner and there you are..,
right in the middle of the lane pedaling along at 20 kph.

About a 22 Mtr/sec differential velocity. They come over the hill and
you are 100 meters ahead and they have 4.5 seconds to (1) notice you
and (2) decide what to do. If it is a lady refreshing her lip gloss,
looking in the rear view mirror, well, say a couple of seconds to
apply and sort of mash the lips together, another couple of second to
blot with the tissue and take a final look and you are 0.5 seconds
from Nirvana. A bit of a frown and the thought, "Whatever is that
right in the middle of the road? A Bicycle?" and you are just a
receding picture in the rear view mirror.

And, from what I read, this is not a rare event in the U.S. I read
that over 70% of U.S. drivers surveyed admitted to texting, reading
e-mail, applying makeup or reading the newspaper while driving.

"Oh, I didn't see him", while perhaps not a valid excuse seems to
becoming a common excuse.
--
Cheers,


+1

On 5/28/2015 7:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 8:56:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
snip

Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.


Although passing clearance often has nothing to do with road position. I have been passed closely while riding lane center -- taking the entire lane. Numerous times. Taking the lane makes sense in places, but it is no guaranty of safe passes. People who want to pass will pass, and if you're traveling slowly down the middle of a lane, you will get passed -- sometimes closely and aggressively. The frequency of unsafe passes will depend on the local driver population and the model number of the truck, e.g. 150, 250 350 etc.

For transportational cycling, nothing is as good as a side flag for
increasing the passing distance between a bicycle and a car. It is
amazing that motorists are so fearful of getting their car scratched by
a piece of plastic, but they make a wide arc around the cyclist rather
than passing closely.

I might not go this far though:
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Cyclist-uses-long-pole-video-camera-to-remind-5425186.php

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt-ZBXZd2kc

The best one is
http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/27/54/13/6210271/4/622x350.jpg.

"He's been met with anger from motorists who aren't acquainted with the
law, as can be seen on the videos he's collected on his YouTube channel.
Most people seen in the videos are angry about their own cars being
damaged."

On 29/05/2015 10:50 AM, sms wrote:
On 5/28/2015 7:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 8:56:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/27/2015 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2015 16:13:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
snip

Everyone I know who has tried it - and there are many - report that
riding more prominently gets them much more passing clearance from
motorists, and fewer crashes and close calls. For one thing, it's
obvious from much further back that the presence of the cyclist will
require some attention.


Although passing clearance often has nothing to do with road
position. I have been passed closely while riding lane center --
taking the entire lane. Numerous times. Taking the lane makes sense in
places, but it is no guaranty of safe passes. People who want to pass
will pass, and if you're traveling slowly down the middle of a lane,
you will get passed -- sometimes closely and aggressively. The
frequency of unsafe passes will depend on the local driver population
and the model number of the truck, e.g. 150, 250 350 etc.

For transportational cycling, nothing is as good as a side flag for
increasing the passing distance between a bicycle and a car. It is
amazing that motorists are so fearful of getting their car scratched by
a piece of plastic, but they make a wide arc around the cyclist rather
than passing closely.

I might not go this far though:
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Cyclist-uses-long-pole-video-camera-to-remind-5425186.php


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt-ZBXZd2kc

The best one is
http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/27/54/13/6210271/4/622x350.jpg.

"He's been met with anger from motorists who aren't acquainted with the
law, as can be seen on the videos he's collected on his YouTube channel.
Most people seen in the videos are angry about their own cars being
damaged."


How does this work when you are on a bi-directional bike lane? What if
bikes are passing each other from different directions and both have
these flags? I'm not wild about cars with mirrors sticking out getting
in my way. I'm not sure I want to deal with other cyclists doing the same.

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 8:50:14 AM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
... any
argument to the contrary would bring up Danger! Danger! rants and more
bull**** statistical misinterpretations and miles traveled and walking
helmets and all sorts of other nonsense.

You mean to say that in the face of arguments to the contrary, I'd bring
in data.

And you've shown time and again that you have no appreciation of data.
In general, its use or analysis just drives you into ranting - generally
because available data shows your arguments are so often wrong.

I understand that this situation frustrates you. But it doesn't make
you any more correct.

- Frank Krygowski