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Spoking wheels
I'm rebuilding a rear (derailier) wheel as, to be frank, I used spokes that were slightly smaller in diameter on the cassette side of the wheel then probably wise, and had occasional spoke breakage. I finally got some slightly larger diameter spokes and am lacing the cassette side of the wheel. Over probably a couple of years I had four spokes break, one at a time, all were what Sheldon referred to as trailing spokes, the ones that have the highest strain when pedaling, and all broke at the middle of the bend at the head end. While I was lacing the wheel with the new spokes I got to wondering whether the side of the hub flange that spoke heads were on might have had any effect on strength. I have always laced 36 hole wheels over three for rear wheels and over two for front wheels with the trailing spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange and the leading spokes with the heads on the inside of the flange, as I believe that Sheldon recommended. But I also remember someone here with a rant about rear wheel lacing who I think was recommending that on the cassette side that the heads should all be toward the outside of the flange. I assumes to prevent damaging spokes if the chain were to come off the largest cassette cog and jam between the spokes and the cassette. This is the only wheel I've had problems with and I deliberately bought the bits and pieces with the idea of long life in mind - cartridge wheel bearings and medium weight rim with eyelets, etc., and as this is the only wheel that I've had problems with I'm fairly sure that my wheel building technique is reasonably effective. Any thoughts on spoke head orientation and the effect on spoke strength. -- Cheers, John B. |
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#2
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Spoking wheels
"John B." wrote in message ... I'm rebuilding a rear (derailier) wheel as, to be frank, I used spokes that were slightly smaller in diameter on the cassette side of the wheel then probably wise, and had occasional spoke breakage. I finally got some slightly larger diameter spokes and am lacing the cassette side of the wheel. Over probably a couple of years I had four spokes break, one at a time, all were what Sheldon referred to as trailing spokes, the ones that have the highest strain when pedaling, and all broke at the middle of the bend at the head end. While I was lacing the wheel with the new spokes I got to wondering whether the side of the hub flange that spoke heads were on might have had any effect on strength. I have always laced 36 hole wheels over three for rear wheels and over two for front wheels with the trailing spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange and the leading spokes with the heads on the inside of the flange, as I believe that Sheldon recommended. But I also remember someone here with a rant about rear wheel lacing who I think was recommending that on the cassette side that the heads should all be toward the outside of the flange. I assumes to prevent damaging spokes if the chain were to come off the largest cassette cog and jam between the spokes and the cassette. This is the only wheel I've had problems with and I deliberately bought the bits and pieces with the idea of long life in mind - cartridge wheel bearings and medium weight rim with eyelets, etc., and as this is the only wheel that I've had problems with I'm fairly sure that my wheel building technique is reasonably effective. Any thoughts on spoke head orientation and the effect on spoke strength. -- Cheers, John B. FWIW I have always used the method described in Gerd Schraner's book on wheel building and I have no problems with wheels going out of true or spokes breaking. Schraner discusses your point and concludes that in his opinion it does not much matter whether the spokes at the hub are laced in a symetric or mirror image pattern or whether the driving spokes are head out or in. From his long experience of wheel building he has concluded that there should be a very marginal gain to have the driven spokes heads in on the cassette side and that is what he recommends. His logic being that it very slightly increases the angle to the rim and thereby slightly reduced tension. However it is clear he would not get into a flame war over it. His main contention is that it is the quality of the components and the build that determine how a wheel performs. On spoke elbow breakages he stresses the need to bed the spoke heads into the hub and to correctly tension and stress relieve the wheel. Graham. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#3
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Spoking wheels
On 11/21/2017 11:53 PM, John B. wrote:
I'm rebuilding a rear (derailier) wheel as, to be frank, I used spokes that were slightly smaller in diameter on the cassette side of the wheel then probably wise, and had occasional spoke breakage. I finally got some slightly larger diameter spokes and am lacing the cassette side of the wheel. Over probably a couple of years I had four spokes break, one at a time, all were what Sheldon referred to as trailing spokes, the ones that have the highest strain when pedaling, and all broke at the middle of the bend at the head end. While I was lacing the wheel with the new spokes I got to wondering whether the side of the hub flange that spoke heads were on might have had any effect on strength. I have always laced 36 hole wheels over three for rear wheels and over two for front wheels with the trailing spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange and the leading spokes with the heads on the inside of the flange, as I believe that Sheldon recommended. But I also remember someone here with a rant about rear wheel lacing who I think was recommending that on the cassette side that the heads should all be toward the outside of the flange. I assumes to prevent damaging spokes if the chain were to come off the largest cassette cog and jam between the spokes and the cassette. This is the only wheel I've had problems with and I deliberately bought the bits and pieces with the idea of long life in mind - cartridge wheel bearings and medium weight rim with eyelets, etc., and as this is the only wheel that I've had problems with I'm fairly sure that my wheel building technique is reasonably effective. Any thoughts on spoke head orientation and the effect on spoke strength. -- Cheers, John B. First off factory wheels have random spoke orientation and most work acceptably well. We build with trailing inside (heads out) as those spokes are straighter and hence deflect less when under torque. This is a small factor but may, at the margin, help. http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/spoksync.jpg In our experience the largest factor in wheel longevity is correct and even spoke tension but certainly a host of smaller things bear attention. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#4
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Spoking wheels
On 11/22/2017 12:53 AM, John B. wrote:
I'm rebuilding a rear (derailier) wheel as, to be frank, I used spokes that were slightly smaller in diameter on the cassette side of the wheel then probably wise, and had occasional spoke breakage. I finally got some slightly larger diameter spokes and am lacing the cassette side of the wheel. Over probably a couple of years I had four spokes break, one at a time, all were what Sheldon referred to as trailing spokes, the ones that have the highest strain when pedaling, and all broke at the middle of the bend at the head end. While I was lacing the wheel with the new spokes I got to wondering whether the side of the hub flange that spoke heads were on might have had any effect on strength. I have always laced 36 hole wheels over three for rear wheels and over two for front wheels with the trailing spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange and the leading spokes with the heads on the inside of the flange, as I believe that Sheldon recommended. But I also remember someone here with a rant about rear wheel lacing who I think was recommending that on the cassette side that the heads should all be toward the outside of the flange. I assumes to prevent damaging spokes if the chain were to come off the largest cassette cog and jam between the spokes and the cassette. This is the only wheel I've had problems with and I deliberately bought the bits and pieces with the idea of long life in mind - cartridge wheel bearings and medium weight rim with eyelets, etc., and as this is the only wheel that I've had problems with I'm fairly sure that my wheel building technique is reasonably effective. Any thoughts on spoke head orientation and the effect on spoke strength. Well, the closest topic to the subject I can find in Jobst Brandt's book is regarding mirror image spoking of left & right flanges, vs. identical spoking. He says the differences are so small that the debate is entirely academic. His detailed wheel building instructions have the pulling (i.e. trailing) spoke heads on the outside, toward the cogs. That's how I've always done mine. I almost never break spokes. BTW, I do use 36 spokes in all my wheels, except 48 for the tandem's rear wheel. I wonder if there's any mismatch between your troublesome hub's spoke hole diameter and your spoke diameter? And are the hub's holes countersunk? -- - Frank Krygowski |
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Spoking wheels
On Wednesday, November 22, 2017 at 8:20:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/22/2017 12:53 AM, John B. wrote: I'm rebuilding a rear (derailier) wheel as, to be frank, I used spokes that were slightly smaller in diameter on the cassette side of the wheel then probably wise, and had occasional spoke breakage. I finally got some slightly larger diameter spokes and am lacing the cassette side of the wheel. Over probably a couple of years I had four spokes break, one at a time, all were what Sheldon referred to as trailing spokes, the ones that have the highest strain when pedaling, and all broke at the middle of the bend at the head end. While I was lacing the wheel with the new spokes I got to wondering whether the side of the hub flange that spoke heads were on might have had any effect on strength. I have always laced 36 hole wheels over three for rear wheels and over two for front wheels with the trailing spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange and the leading spokes with the heads on the inside of the flange, as I believe that Sheldon recommended. But I also remember someone here with a rant about rear wheel lacing who I think was recommending that on the cassette side that the heads should all be toward the outside of the flange. I assumes to prevent damaging spokes if the chain were to come off the largest cassette cog and jam between the spokes and the cassette. This is the only wheel I've had problems with and I deliberately bought the bits and pieces with the idea of long life in mind - cartridge wheel bearings and medium weight rim with eyelets, etc., and as this is the only wheel that I've had problems with I'm fairly sure that my wheel building technique is reasonably effective. Any thoughts on spoke head orientation and the effect on spoke strength. Well, the closest topic to the subject I can find in Jobst Brandt's book is regarding mirror image spoking of left & right flanges, vs. identical spoking. He says the differences are so small that the debate is entirely academic. His detailed wheel building instructions have the pulling (i.e. trailing) spoke heads on the outside, toward the cogs. That's how I've always done mine. I almost never break spokes. BTW, I do use 36 spokes in all my wheels, except 48 for the tandem's rear wheel. I wonder if there's any mismatch between your troublesome hub's spoke hole diameter and your spoke diameter? And are the hub's holes countersunk? Just from a building standpoint, it's convenient to do trailing spokes head-out on both sides. No weaving spokes around or remembering patterns. I mix it up on front disc wheels, or at least I used to -- but even if I just build them identically on both sides, I haven't experienced any problems. I get spoke breakage when spokes have defects, or I used spokes get a set and then you re-use them with a different orientation or when nipples get cut by sharp rim holes. -- Jay Beattie. |
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Spoking wheels
On 22/11/17 06:53, John B. wrote:
I'm rebuilding a rear (derailier) wheel as, to be frank, I used spokes that were slightly smaller in diameter on the cassette side of the wheel then probably wise, and had occasional spoke breakage. I finally got some slightly larger diameter spokes and am lacing the cassette side of the wheel. Over probably a couple of years I had four spokes break, one at a time, all were what Sheldon referred to as trailing spokes, the ones that have the highest strain when pedaling, and all broke at the middle of the bend at the head end. While I was lacing the wheel with the new spokes I got to wondering whether the side of the hub flange that spoke heads were on might have had any effect on strength. I have always laced 36 hole wheels over three for rear wheels and over two for front wheels with the trailing spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange and the leading spokes with the heads on the inside of the flange, as I believe that Sheldon recommended. But I also remember someone here with a rant about rear wheel lacing who I think was recommending that on the cassette side that the heads should all be toward the outside of the flange. I assumes to prevent damaging spokes if the chain were to come off the largest cassette cog and jam between the spokes and the cassette. This is the only wheel I've had problems with and I deliberately bought the bits and pieces with the idea of long life in mind - cartridge wheel bearings and medium weight rim with eyelets, etc., and as this is the only wheel that I've had problems with I'm fairly sure that my wheel building technique is reasonably effective. Any thoughts on spoke head orientation and the effect on spoke strength. No, but the one time I had that I had over tensioned the wheel. Exact symptoms you described. Backed off all the spokes, never had a breakage in the subsequent 4(?) years. |
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Spoking wheels
So John B., what method are you using to equalize the tension on all the spokes?
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Spoking wheels
On 22/11/17 16:53, John B. wrote:
I'm rebuilding a rear (derailier) wheel as, to be frank, I used spokes that were slightly smaller in diameter on the cassette side of the wheel then probably wise, and had occasional spoke breakage. I finally got some slightly larger diameter spokes and am lacing the cassette side of the wheel. Over probably a couple of years I had four spokes break, one at a time, all were what Sheldon referred to as trailing spokes, the ones that have the highest strain when pedaling, and all broke at the middle of the bend at the head end. While I was lacing the wheel with the new spokes I got to wondering whether the side of the hub flange that spoke heads were on might have had any effect on strength. I have always laced 36 hole wheels over three for rear wheels and over two for front wheels with the trailing spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange and the leading spokes with the heads on the inside of the flange, as I believe that Sheldon recommended. But I also remember someone here with a rant about rear wheel lacing who I think was recommending that on the cassette side that the heads should all be toward the outside of the flange. I assumes to prevent damaging spokes if the chain were to come off the largest cassette cog and jam between the spokes and the cassette. This is the only wheel I've had problems with and I deliberately bought the bits and pieces with the idea of long life in mind - cartridge wheel bearings and medium weight rim with eyelets, etc., and as this is the only wheel that I've had problems with I'm fairly sure that my wheel building technique is reasonably effective. Any thoughts on spoke head orientation and the effect on spoke strength. I don't believe there is any meaningful difference in strength depending on the spoke head orientation. Did you cold set the spokes at the bend to aim at the rim? If not the elbow has the potential to flex with every rotation and work harden until it breaks. -- JS |
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Spoking wheels
On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 at 10:53:39 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
I'm rebuilding a rear (derailier) wheel as, to be frank, I used spokes that were slightly smaller in diameter on the cassette side of the wheel then probably wise, and had occasional spoke breakage. I finally got some slightly larger diameter spokes and am lacing the cassette side of the wheel. Over probably a couple of years I had four spokes break, one at a time, all were what Sheldon referred to as trailing spokes, the ones that have the highest strain when pedaling, and all broke at the middle of the bend at the head end. While I was lacing the wheel with the new spokes I got to wondering whether the side of the hub flange that spoke heads were on might have had any effect on strength. I have always laced 36 hole wheels over three for rear wheels and over two for front wheels with the trailing spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange and the leading spokes with the heads on the inside of the flange, as I believe that Sheldon recommended. But I also remember someone here with a rant about rear wheel lacing who I think was recommending that on the cassette side that the heads should all be toward the outside of the flange. I assumes to prevent damaging spokes if the chain were to come off the largest cassette cog and jam between the spokes and the cassette. This is the only wheel I've had problems with and I deliberately bought the bits and pieces with the idea of long life in mind - cartridge wheel bearings and medium weight rim with eyelets, etc., and as this is the only wheel that I've had problems with I'm fairly sure that my wheel building technique is reasonably effective. Any thoughts on spoke head orientation and the effect on spoke strength. -- Cheers, John B. need to examine each spoke for cracks with a magnifier. Generic spokes are for very casual no load riders. |
#10
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Spoking wheels
On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 09:44:38 -0000, "Graham"
wrote: "John B." wrote in message ... I'm rebuilding a rear (derailier) wheel as, to be frank, I used spokes that were slightly smaller in diameter on the cassette side of the wheel then probably wise, and had occasional spoke breakage. I finally got some slightly larger diameter spokes and am lacing the cassette side of the wheel. Over probably a couple of years I had four spokes break, one at a time, all were what Sheldon referred to as trailing spokes, the ones that have the highest strain when pedaling, and all broke at the middle of the bend at the head end. While I was lacing the wheel with the new spokes I got to wondering whether the side of the hub flange that spoke heads were on might have had any effect on strength. I have always laced 36 hole wheels over three for rear wheels and over two for front wheels with the trailing spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange and the leading spokes with the heads on the inside of the flange, as I believe that Sheldon recommended. But I also remember someone here with a rant about rear wheel lacing who I think was recommending that on the cassette side that the heads should all be toward the outside of the flange. I assumes to prevent damaging spokes if the chain were to come off the largest cassette cog and jam between the spokes and the cassette. This is the only wheel I've had problems with and I deliberately bought the bits and pieces with the idea of long life in mind - cartridge wheel bearings and medium weight rim with eyelets, etc., and as this is the only wheel that I've had problems with I'm fairly sure that my wheel building technique is reasonably effective. Any thoughts on spoke head orientation and the effect on spoke strength. -- Cheers, John B. FWIW I have always used the method described in Gerd Schraner's book on wheel building and I have no problems with wheels going out of true or spokes breaking. Schraner discusses your point and concludes that in his opinion it does not much matter whether the spokes at the hub are laced in a symetric or mirror image pattern or whether the driving spokes are head out or in. From his long experience of wheel building he has concluded that there should be a very marginal gain to have the driven spokes heads in on the cassette side and that is what he recommends. His logic being that it very slightly increases the angle to the rim and thereby slightly reduced tension. However it is clear he would not get into a flame war over it. His main contention is that it is the quality of the components and the build that determine how a wheel performs. On spoke elbow breakages he stresses the need to bed the spoke heads into the hub and to correctly tension and stress relieve the wheel. Graham. I tend to agree with you as I've built wheels in all sorts of style and have seldom had any problems which was what was puzzling with this particular wheel. It was straight and would go for months and then pop, one spoke on the drive side would pop the head off and the wheel would wobble. I'd take the wheel apart and check everything change the spoke and re tension and it would go for months and then pop. The last time it popped two spokes about 180 degrees from each other and I decided to do something a bit more permanent and replaced all the drive side spokes with a thicker spokes. We'll see. -- Cheers, John B. |
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