Drivers with 12 or more points still on the road

Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:
On 03/03/2012 14:24, JNugent wrote:
On 03/03/2012 14:15, Adam Lea wrote:

On 03/03/12 11:58, Dave Plowman wrote:

Given pretty well every cyclist commits traffic offences many
times a day,

Incorrect.
Assertion /= fact.

It is observable empirically.

Indeed. Today at 3:48 pm in Greenhithe, Kent I saw a cyclist stop at
a red light & wait till it changed.

Anecdotal, so cannot be believed.

"Bertie Wooster" wrote in message
...
ALL ROAD USERS BEWARE!

There are more than 2,800 drivers with 12 or more points on their
licence still permitted to drive in London, according to figures from
the DVLA. The figures also show there is one person with a shocking 30
points, with current entitlement to drive.


What a bloody disgrace - there is no excuse at all for a git on 30 points to
still be on the road at all.
Some of the feeble excuses I have heard are pathetic in the extreme.
Our local soccer boss said that a personal driver would be earwigging on his
transfer deals if he had to hire a chauffeur.

--
Simon Mason

On 03/03/12 14:24, JNugent wrote:
On 03/03/2012 14:15, Adam Lea wrote:

On 03/03/12 11:58, Dave Plowman wrote:

Given pretty well every cyclist commits traffic offences many times a
day,

Incorrect.
Assertion /= fact.

It is observable empirically.

It is utter rubbish. For example, I managed to cycle to work and back
every day this week without breaking any traffic laws, clearly negating
the above statement.


No-one and no body with credibility and gravitas could possibly assert
that cyclists, as a class, are anything but the least observant group
when it comes to road traffic law.


Again, just lazy assertion. Both "classes" will break laws they think
they can get away with. With cyclists, it tends to be riding on
pavements and jumping red lights (but very location dependant). With
motorists, it tends to be breaking speed limits, crossing double white
lines when overtaking, and going through lights on amber when they could
have stopped safely.

And why this insistance of grouping everyone together in "classes"?
Everyone is an individual, no-one should be made to feel responsible for
the actions of others they have no influence over, just because someone
somewhere has lumped them together in the same group. That is like a
terrorist mentality of bombing a busy shopping centre trying to kill as
many people as possible and trying to justify it on the actions of their
government.

It matters not that individually, they don't break the law when on foot
or behind the wheel of a motor vehicle. Put someone on a bike and the
odds are that they immediately turn into a self-centred scofflaw chav.

Some people do, but that can happen when they get in a car as well. Why
do you think this cartoon was created?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZAZ_xu0DCg

On 03/03/2012 18:38, Adam Lea wrote:

On 03/03/12 14:24, JNugent wrote:
On 03/03/2012 14:15, Adam Lea wrote:
On 03/03/12 11:58, Dave Plowman wrote:

Given pretty well every cyclist commits traffic offences many times a
day,

Incorrect.
Assertion /= fact.

It is observable empirically.

It is utter rubbish. For example, I managed to cycle to work and back every
day this week without breaking any traffic laws, clearly negating the above
statement.

You seem to have difficulty in understanding what the previous poster
actually wrote.

Your claim not to have broken any laws today in no way negates what he said.

Re-read it. And, if you think he hasn't couched it in the strict terms would
require for a proposition from Wittgenstein in the Oxford tutorials you run,
then interpret it in an everyday sense. What would you say that "pretty well
every cyclist" means? Does it mean "every cyclist"? And what would you say
that the writer's own experience (which is all he can write from) means?

No-one and no body with credibility and gravitas could possibly assert
that cyclists, as a class, are anything but the least observant group
when it comes to road traffic law.

Again, just lazy assertion. Both "classes" will break laws they think they
can get away with. With cyclists, it tends to be riding on pavements and
jumping red lights (but very location dependant). With motorists, it tends to
be breaking speed limits, crossing double white lines when overtaking, and
going through lights on amber when they could have stopped safely.

No-one - not even you - can tell whether a vehicle is doing (say) 34mph just
by looking at it. You are simply assuming it; you haven't "seen" it; you
imagine it. Crossing a white line when overtaking is not an offence in some
circumstances, and those circumstances too are dependent on measurement which
requires finer calibration than your eyes alone can provide.

Yet you condemn without evidence, whereas the evidence of (say) footway
cycling, or ignoring red lights, or going the wrong way in a one-way street,
is obvious when seen and not at all dependent on measurement.

He can be right in his criticisms because he only has to see the offences.
You cannot be because you are, at best, guessing, and seeing is not enough.

And why this insistance of grouping everyone together in "classes"?

It's just a word. Substitute "category" if you like. It really doesn't
matter. Have it entirely your own way.

Everyone
is an individual, no-one should be made to feel responsible for the actions
of others they have no influence over, just because someone somewhere has
lumped them together in the same group. That is like a terrorist mentality of
bombing a busy shopping centre trying to kill as many people as possible and
trying to justify it on the actions of their government.

If that were true (it isn't), there would be, for instance, no 30mph speed
limit in built up areas, because the limit is designed to stop only a small
minority of drivers and riders from being involved in accidents. No-one with
any sense would claim that anything other than a tiny proportion would be
involved in accidents simply because they were doing 36 instead of 29.

And if you are supportive of that sort of blanket condemnation and control
(it's hard to believe that you aren't), you cannot complain if other whole
classes of road-user are categorised and restricted in a similar way for
similar reasons.

It matters not that individually, they don't break the law when on foot
or behind the wheel of a motor vehicle. Put someone on a bike and the
odds are that they immediately turn into a self-centred scofflaw chav.

Some people do, but that can happen when they get in a car as well.

Of what relevance is that?

Why do you think this cartoon was created?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZAZ_xu0DCg

I haven't watched it. Why do you ask the question?

Bertie Wooster wrote:

Research has identified a link between road traffic offences and
criminal behaviour.

Heck that must mean that all London cyclists are criminals. I've sen
more cyclists committing road traffic offences in London than any other
single group.

Many thanks for this useful insight. Do you want a bandage for those
toes?

Dave - Cyclists VOR wrote:

Indeed. Today at 3:48 pm in Greenhithe, Kent I saw a cyclist stop at a
red light & wait till it changed.

I saw a cyclist stop at a red light yesterday. Also he took an
appropriate position on the road, cycled with caution and did not cause
an inconvenience or danger to anyone, including himself. Mind you, I was
in Ross-pn-Wye and he was the model for Augustus Windsock the perfect
and long-lived cyclist. If only the London chavscum could learn from
him.

The CTC used to foster such gentlemanly cycling, sadly nowadays it has
been taken over by the chavscum, many of whom pop up to infest this and
other motoring newsgroups.

Simon Mason wrote:

What a bloody disgrace - there is no excuse at all for a git on 30 points to
still be on the road at all.

I agree, there's no place on the road for aggressive, stupid road users.
Fortunately someone has taken it upon themself to document the actions
of stupid road users for posterity.

Just look at this idiot as he careers up the road aggressively trying to
force oncoming traffic to yield to him and then terrorises pedestrians
crossing the road, failing to give way to pedestrians as he turns right.

The "man" who took these videos is a disgrace.

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/satjam.mp4

On 05/03/2012 09:06, Steve Firth wrote:
Dave - Cyclists wrote:

Indeed. Today at 3:48 pm in Greenhithe, Kent I saw a cyclist stop at a
red light& wait till it changed.

I saw a cyclist stop at a red light yesterday. Also he took an
appropriate position on the road, cycled with caution and did not cause
an inconvenience or danger to anyone, including himself. Mind you, I was
in Ross-pn-Wye

But how did he get from Greenhithe to Ross on Wye so quickly?



--
Dave - Cyclists VOR. "Many people barely recognise the bicycle as a
legitimate mode of transport; it is either a toy for children or a
vehicle fit only for the poor and/or strange," Dave Horton - Lancaster
University

On Mar 5, 9:06*am, (Steve Firth) wrote:
Simon Mason wrote:
What a bloody disgrace - there is no excuse at all for a git on 30 points to
still be on the road at all.

I agree, there's no place on the road for aggressive, stupid road users.
Fortunately someone has taken it upon themself to document the actions
of stupid road users for posterity.

Just look at this idiot as he careers up the road aggressively trying to
force oncoming traffic to yield to him and then terrorises pedestrians
crossing the road, failing to give way to pedestrians as he turns right.

The "man" who took these videos is a disgrace.

http://www.swldxer.co.uk/satjam.mp4

Jealous at the ease in which I can totally avoid traffic jams, Stevie
boy?

:-)

--
Simon Mason

On Mar 3, 8:48*am, Bertie Wooster wrote:
ALL ROAD USERS BEWARE!

There are more than 2,800 drivers with 12 or more points on their
licence still permitted to drive in London, according to figures from
the DVLA. The figures also show there is one person with a shocking 30
points, with current entitlement to drive.

Research has identified a link between road traffic offences and
criminal behaviour. One study highlighted a clear proportional
increase in collision fault among those with offence history.

Jenny Jones AM said: “The scale of this problem is quite frightening.
These 2,800 drivers are getting away with reckless driving. They’ve
been offending and therefore building up points on their licence, but
still being able to drive. Of course there are instances where
magistrates need to use their discretion, but the police need to know
its actually worthwhile catching these criminals. * Research has also
shown drivers with points on their licence are more likely to have
previous convictions and be involved in a collision. These drivers are
breaking the rules and getting away with it. ”
End notes

1. Figures on points obtained from an FOI request to the DVLA

Current Points *Number of drivers
12 * * * * * * *1596
15 * * * * * * *225
20 * * * * * * *23
25 * * * * * * *1
30 * * * * * * *1

2. * * *According to a government website, if a driver builds up 12 or
more points within a period of 3 years, they are liable to lose their
licence and be disqualified under the ‘totting up’ system.http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring...dorsementsAndD...
3. * * *A study by Loughborough University showed a link between
offences and criminality.http://www.lboro.ac.uk/media/wwwlbor...ownloads/resea...

This is just the tip of an iceberg of unfit or otherwise dangerous
drivers being allowed to use our roads while posing a serious threat
to others.

-- .
A driving licence is sometimes a licence to kill.