Cycling crime & punishment

On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 7:48:52 PM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/15/2020 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Nine months suspension for causing the crash at the Tour of Poland:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-poland-475516


Some of you may recall the crash video linked here earlier. Anyone
else see this as a tragic error rather than a punishable intentional
act? Nine months of a short cycling career is a long time.

I agree.

If Groenewegen had been in a car, it would be "SMIDSY" and no punishment.

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 4:48:00 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 7:48:52 PM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/15/2020 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Nine months suspension for causing the crash at the Tour of Poland:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-poland-475516


Some of you may recall the crash video linked here earlier. Anyone
else see this as a tragic error rather than a punishable intentional
act? Nine months of a short cycling career is a long time.

I agree.

If Groenewegen had been in a car, it would be "SMIDSY" and no punishment.
Want to show us the relevant sections in the UCI contract signed by
Groenewagon, the closet motor-racer? Andrew's link was lacking in
substance, but here is the key:

"The UCI’s disciplinary commission has ruled that Groenewegen deviated from
his sprinting line in the final, committing a violation of the UCI regulations."

If you don't like PGA rules or their seemingly random enforcement, get
things changed before violating them -- or play baseball.
There's a regrettable tendency in several sports towards outrageous punishments for routine, forecastable sporting incidents, no malice, never mind preplanning by a perpetrator. Someone (Lou?) elsewhere in this thread thinks their motive is political correctness*, and that clearly plays a part, but it is also worth saying that the UCI is as incompetent, hypocritical and inconsistent a bunch of blazers as I've ever seen. Here it seems that their inadequate policing of the race route left an obvious hazard in place, and that they're punishing a rider for the predictable disaster that followed from that failure.

All the way up the the mouthfoaming fanatics of WADA demanding that athletes prove themselves innocent of drug abuse -- because they're too incompetent to catch anybody. Too demand that someone proves himself innocent, or prove a negative, is an assault on a basic human right to be considered innocent until proven otherwise, no exception, especially no exception for incompetent bureaucrats.

All of the racers from the Lance Armstrong Era consider him the winner. Drugs helped recovery and could wake you up when you were too low on sleep, but they didn't make you any faster than your body was capable of doing. I do not like athletes using drugs because of the effects it can have after their careers are over. Pantani was a good example.

Op dinsdag 17 november 2020 om 17:42:48 UTC+1 schreef :
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 4:48:00 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 7:48:52 PM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/15/2020 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Nine months suspension for causing the crash at the Tour of Poland:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-poland-475516


Some of you may recall the crash video linked here earlier. Anyone
else see this as a tragic error rather than a punishable intentional
act? Nine months of a short cycling career is a long time.

I agree.

If Groenewegen had been in a car, it would be "SMIDSY" and no punishment.
Want to show us the relevant sections in the UCI contract signed by
Groenewagon, the closet motor-racer? Andrew's link was lacking in
substance, but here is the key:

"The UCI’s disciplinary commission has ruled that Groenewegen deviated from
his sprinting line in the final, committing a violation of the UCI regulations."

If you don't like PGA rules or their seemingly random enforcement, get
things changed before violating them -- or play baseball.
There's a regrettable tendency in several sports towards outrageous punishments for routine, forecastable sporting incidents, no malice, never mind preplanning by a perpetrator. Someone (Lou?) elsewhere in this thread thinks their motive is political correctness*, and that clearly plays a part, but it is also worth saying that the UCI is as incompetent, hypocritical and inconsistent a bunch of blazers as I've ever seen. Here it seems that their inadequate policing of the race route left an obvious hazard in place, and that they're punishing a rider for the predictable disaster that followed from that failure.

All the way up the the mouthfoaming fanatics of WADA demanding that athletes prove themselves innocent of drug abuse -- because they're too incompetent to catch anybody. Too demand that someone proves himself innocent, or prove a negative, is an assault on a basic human right to be considered innocent until proven otherwise, no exception, especially no exception for incompetent bureaucrats.
All of the racers from the Lance Armstrong Era consider him the winner. Drugs helped recovery and could wake you up when you were too low on sleep, but they didn't make you any faster than your body was capable of doing. I do not like athletes using drugs because of the effects it can have after their careers are over. Pantani was a good example.


LA was an ass to many people including his colleages . When the when the opportunity arose it was pay back time.

Lou

On 11/17/2020 12:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op dinsdag 17 november 2020 om 17:42:48 UTC+1 schreef :
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 4:48:00 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 7:48:52 PM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/15/2020 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Nine months suspension for causing the crash at the Tour of Poland:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-poland-475516


Some of you may recall the crash video linked here earlier. Anyone
else see this as a tragic error rather than a punishable intentional
act? Nine months of a short cycling career is a long time.

I agree.

If Groenewegen had been in a car, it would be "SMIDSY" and no punishment.
Want to show us the relevant sections in the UCI contract signed by
Groenewagon, the closet motor-racer? Andrew's link was lacking in
substance, but here is the key:

"The UCI’s disciplinary commission has ruled that Groenewegen deviated from
his sprinting line in the final, committing a violation of the UCI regulations."

If you don't like PGA rules or their seemingly random enforcement, get
things changed before violating them -- or play baseball.
There's a regrettable tendency in several sports towards outrageous punishments for routine, forecastable sporting incidents, no malice, never mind preplanning by a perpetrator. Someone (Lou?) elsewhere in this thread thinks their motive is political correctness*, and that clearly plays a part, but it is also worth saying that the UCI is as incompetent, hypocritical and inconsistent a bunch of blazers as I've ever seen. Here it seems that their inadequate policing of the race route left an obvious hazard in place, and that they're punishing a rider for the predictable disaster that followed from that failure.

All the way up the the mouthfoaming fanatics of WADA demanding that athletes prove themselves innocent of drug abuse -- because they're too incompetent to catch anybody. Too demand that someone proves himself innocent, or prove a negative, is an assault on a basic human right to be considered innocent until proven otherwise, no exception, especially no exception for incompetent bureaucrats.
All of the racers from the Lance Armstrong Era consider him the winner. Drugs helped recovery and could wake you up when you were too low on sleep, but they didn't make you any faster than your body was capable of doing. I do not like athletes using drugs because of the effects it can have after their careers are over. Pantani was a good example.


LA was an ass to many people including his colleages . When the when the opportunity arose it was pay back time.

Lou


True, but as in so many fields, personality aside, he won.
Repeatedly. You can't take that away.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/17/2020 1:33 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/17/2020 12:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op dinsdag 17 november 2020 om 17:42:48 UTC+1 schreef :
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 4:48:00 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 7:48:52 PM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/15/2020 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Nine months suspension for causing the crash at the Tour of Poland:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-poland-475516



Some of you may recall the crash video linked here earlier. Anyone
else see this as a tragic error rather than a punishable intentional
act? Nine months of a short cycling career is a long time.

I agree.

If Groenewegen had been in a car, it would be "SMIDSY" and no
punishment.
Want to show us the relevant sections in the UCI contract signed by
Groenewagon, the closet motor-racer? Andrew's link was lacking in
substance, but here is the key:

"The UCI’s disciplinary commission has ruled that Groenewegen
deviated from
his sprinting line in the final, committing a violation of the UCI
regulations."

If you don't like PGA rules or their seemingly random enforcement, get
things changed before violating them -- or play baseball.
There's a regrettable tendency in several sports towards outrageous
punishments for routine, forecastable sporting incidents, no malice,
never mind preplanning by a perpetrator. Someone (Lou?) elsewhere in
this thread thinks their motive is political correctness*, and that
clearly plays a part, but it is also worth saying that the UCI is as
incompetent, hypocritical and inconsistent a bunch of blazers as
I've ever seen. Here it seems that their inadequate policing of the
race route left an obvious hazard in place, and that they're
punishing a rider for the predictable disaster that followed from
that failure.

All the way up the the mouthfoaming fanatics of WADA demanding that
athletes prove themselves innocent of drug abuse -- because they're
too incompetent to catch anybody. Too demand that someone proves
himself innocent, or prove a negative, is an assault on a basic
human right to be considered innocent until proven otherwise, no
exception, especially no exception for incompetent bureaucrats.
All of the racers from the Lance Armstrong Era consider him the
winner. Drugs helped recovery and could wake you up when you were too
low on sleep, but they didn't make you any faster than your body was
capable of doing. I do not like athletes using drugs because of the
effects it can have after their careers are over. Pantani was a good
example.


LA was an ass to many people including his colleages .* When the when
the opportunity arose it was pay back time.

Lou


True, but as in so many fields, personality aside, he won. Repeatedly.
You can't take that away.

Um... they did take that away, IIRC.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/17/2020 12:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/17/2020 1:33 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/17/2020 12:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op dinsdag 17 november 2020 om 17:42:48 UTC+1 schreef
:
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 4:48:00 PM UTC-8, Andre
Jute wrote:
On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 7:48:52 PM UTC, Sepp
Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/15/2020 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Nine months suspension for causing the crash at the
Tour of Poland:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-poland-475516



Some of you may recall the crash video linked here
earlier. Anyone
else see this as a tragic error rather than a
punishable intentional
act? Nine months of a short cycling career is a long
time.

I agree.

If Groenewegen had been in a car, it would be
"SMIDSY" and no punishment.
Want to show us the relevant sections in the UCI
contract signed by
Groenewagon, the closet motor-racer? Andrew's link was
lacking in
substance, but here is the key:

"The UCI’s disciplinary commission has ruled that
Groenewegen deviated from
his sprinting line in the final, committing a
violation of the UCI regulations."

If you don't like PGA rules or their seemingly random
enforcement, get
things changed before violating them -- or play baseball.
There's a regrettable tendency in several sports
towards outrageous punishments for routine,
forecastable sporting incidents, no malice, never mind
preplanning by a perpetrator. Someone (Lou?) elsewhere
in this thread thinks their motive is political
correctness*, and that clearly plays a part, but it is
also worth saying that the UCI is as incompetent,
hypocritical and inconsistent a bunch of blazers as
I've ever seen. Here it seems that their inadequate
policing of the race route left an obvious hazard in
place, and that they're punishing a rider for the
predictable disaster that followed from that failure.

All the way up the the mouthfoaming fanatics of WADA
demanding that athletes prove themselves innocent of
drug abuse -- because they're too incompetent to catch
anybody. Too demand that someone proves himself
innocent, or prove a negative, is an assault on a basic
human right to be considered innocent until proven
otherwise, no exception, especially no exception for
incompetent bureaucrats.
All of the racers from the Lance Armstrong Era consider
him the winner. Drugs helped recovery and could wake you
up when you were too low on sleep, but they didn't make
you any faster than your body was capable of doing. I do
not like athletes using drugs because of the effects it
can have after their careers are over. Pantani was a
good example.


LA was an ass to many people including his colleages .
When the when the opportunity arose it was pay back time.

Lou


True, but as in so many fields, personality aside, he won.
Repeatedly. You can't take that away.

Um... they did take that away, IIRC.



Which loops back to the topic. UCI are a bunch of putzes
with unclear motivation and arbitrarily applied authority.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 12:33:44 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/17/2020 12:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op dinsdag 17 november 2020 om 17:42:48 UTC+1 schreef :
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 4:48:00 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 7:48:52 PM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/15/2020 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Nine months suspension for causing the crash at the Tour of Poland:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-poland-475516


Some of you may recall the crash video linked here earlier. Anyone
else see this as a tragic error rather than a punishable intentional
act? Nine months of a short cycling career is a long time.

I agree.

If Groenewegen had been in a car, it would be "SMIDSY" and no punishment.
Want to show us the relevant sections in the UCI contract signed by
Groenewagon, the closet motor-racer? Andrew's link was lacking in
substance, but here is the key:

"The UCI’s disciplinary commission has ruled that Groenewegen deviated from
his sprinting line in the final, committing a violation of the UCI regulations."

If you don't like PGA rules or their seemingly random enforcement, get
things changed before violating them -- or play baseball.
There's a regrettable tendency in several sports towards outrageous punishments for routine, forecastable sporting incidents, no malice, never mind preplanning by a perpetrator. Someone (Lou?) elsewhere in this thread thinks their motive is political correctness*, and that clearly plays a part, but it is also worth saying that the UCI is as incompetent, hypocritical and inconsistent a bunch of blazers as I've ever seen. Here it seems that their inadequate policing of the race route left an obvious hazard in place, and that they're punishing a rider for the predictable disaster that followed from that failure.

All the way up the the mouthfoaming fanatics of WADA demanding that athletes prove themselves innocent of drug abuse -- because they're too incompetent to catch anybody. Too demand that someone proves himself innocent, or prove a negative, is an assault on a basic human right to be considered innocent until proven otherwise, no exception, especially no exception for incompetent bureaucrats.
All of the racers from the Lance Armstrong Era consider him the winner. Drugs helped recovery and could wake you up when you were too low on sleep, but they didn't make you any faster than your body was capable of doing. I do not like athletes using drugs because of the effects it can have after their careers are over. Pantani was a good example.


LA was an ass to many people including his colleages . When the when the opportunity arose it was pay back time.

Lou


True, but as in so many fields, personality aside, he won.
Repeatedly. You can't take that away.

And apparently wasn't doing anything that every other top rider of his
era was doing :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/17/2020 5:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 12:33:44 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/17/2020 12:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op dinsdag 17 november 2020 om 17:42:48 UTC+1 schreef :
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 4:48:00 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 7:48:52 PM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/15/2020 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Nine months suspension for causing the crash at the Tour of Poland:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-poland-475516


Some of you may recall the crash video linked here earlier. Anyone
else see this as a tragic error rather than a punishable intentional
act? Nine months of a short cycling career is a long time.

I agree.

If Groenewegen had been in a car, it would be "SMIDSY" and no punishment.
Want to show us the relevant sections in the UCI contract signed by
Groenewagon, the closet motor-racer? Andrew's link was lacking in
substance, but here is the key:

"The UCI’s disciplinary commission has ruled that Groenewegen deviated from
his sprinting line in the final, committing a violation of the UCI regulations."

If you don't like PGA rules or their seemingly random enforcement, get
things changed before violating them -- or play baseball.
There's a regrettable tendency in several sports towards outrageous punishments for routine, forecastable sporting incidents, no malice, never mind preplanning by a perpetrator. Someone (Lou?) elsewhere in this thread thinks their motive is political correctness*, and that clearly plays a part, but it is also worth saying that the UCI is as incompetent, hypocritical and inconsistent a bunch of blazers as I've ever seen. Here it seems that their inadequate policing of the race route left an obvious hazard in place, and that they're punishing a rider for the predictable disaster that followed from that failure.

All the way up the the mouthfoaming fanatics of WADA demanding that athletes prove themselves innocent of drug abuse -- because they're too incompetent to catch anybody. Too demand that someone proves himself innocent, or prove a negative, is an assault on a basic human right to be considered innocent until proven otherwise, no exception, especially no exception for incompetent bureaucrats.
All of the racers from the Lance Armstrong Era consider him the winner. Drugs helped recovery and could wake you up when you were too low on sleep, but they didn't make you any faster than your body was capable of doing. I do not like athletes using drugs because of the effects it can have after their careers are over. Pantani was a good example.


LA was an ass to many people including his colleages . When the when the opportunity arose it was pay back time.

Lou


True, but as in so many fields, personality aside, he won.
Repeatedly. You can't take that away.

And apparently wasn't doing anything that every other top rider of his
era was doing :-)


Same dope, same bike, same climbs, same wind, same
opportunities but Lance had more je ne sais quoi and you
don't either.

I'm not defending his asshole personality or the chronic
lying but after all, he persevered to win. Repeatedly.
Hmmm. That reminds me of another Famous Person.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/17/2020 3:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/17/2020 5:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 12:33:44 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/17/2020 12:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op dinsdag 17 november 2020 om 17:42:48 UTC+1 schreef
:
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 4:48:00 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 7:48:52 PM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/15/2020 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Nine months suspension for causing the crash at the Tour of
Poland:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-poland-475516



Some of you may recall the crash video linked here earlier. Anyone
else see this as a tragic error rather than a punishable
intentional
act? Nine months of a short cycling career is a long time.

I agree.

If Groenewegen had been in a car, it would be "SMIDSY" and no
punishment.
Want to show us the relevant sections in the UCI contract signed by
Groenewagon, the closet motor-racer? Andrew's link was lacking in
substance, but here is the key:

"The UCI’s disciplinary commission has ruled that Groenewegen
deviated from
his sprinting line in the final, committing a violation of the
UCI regulations."

If you don't like PGA rules or their seemingly random
enforcement, get
things changed before violating them -- or play baseball.
There's a regrettable tendency in several sports towards
outrageous punishments for routine, forecastable sporting
incidents, no malice, never mind preplanning by a perpetrator.
Someone (Lou?) elsewhere in this thread thinks their motive is
political correctness*, and that clearly plays a part, but it is
also worth saying that the UCI is as incompetent, hypocritical and
inconsistent a bunch of blazers as I've ever seen. Here it seems
that their inadequate policing of the race route left an obvious
hazard in place, and that they're punishing a rider for the
predictable disaster that followed from that failure.

All the way up the the mouthfoaming fanatics of WADA demanding
that athletes prove themselves innocent of drug abuse -- because
they're too incompetent to catch anybody. Too demand that someone
proves himself innocent, or prove a negative, is an assault on a
basic human right to be considered innocent until proven
otherwise, no exception, especially no exception for incompetent
bureaucrats.
All of the racers from the Lance Armstrong Era consider him the
winner. Drugs helped recovery and could wake you up when you were
too low on sleep, but they didn't make you any faster than your
body was capable of doing. I do not like athletes using drugs
because of the effects it can have after their careers are over.
Pantani was a good example.


LA was an ass to many people including his colleages .* When the
when the opportunity arose it was pay back time.

Lou


True, but as in so many fields, personality aside, he won.
Repeatedly.* You can't take that away.

And apparently wasn't doing anything that every other top rider of his
era was doing :-)


Same dope, same bike, same climbs, same wind, same opportunities but
Lance had more je ne sais quoi and you don't either.

I'm not defending his asshole personality or the chronic lying but after
all, he persevered to win. Repeatedly. Hmmm. That reminds me of another
Famous Person.

While I mostly agree with you, there does remain the question - was he
better on the bike and using equal doping or was he just superior at
doping? I'm not talking about differences in the specific drugs
involved - they appear to be pretty much in common - but about the whole
doping / blood boosting protocols. Postal's system seemed very detailed
and carefully thought out, and could possibly have been
different/superior enough to make a difference.

Again, I mostly tend to agree with you, but... (and I have to admit
I've mostly stopped caring, except to agree that LA is personally
objectionable.)

Mark J.

On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:54:05 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/17/2020 5:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 12:33:44 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/17/2020 12:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op dinsdag 17 november 2020 om 17:42:48 UTC+1 schreef :
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 4:48:00 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 7:48:52 PM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/15/2020 12:28 PM, AMuzi wrote:
Nine months suspension for causing the crash at the Tour of Poland:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-poland-475516


Some of you may recall the crash video linked here earlier. Anyone
else see this as a tragic error rather than a punishable intentional
act? Nine months of a short cycling career is a long time.

I agree.

If Groenewegen had been in a car, it would be "SMIDSY" and no punishment.
Want to show us the relevant sections in the UCI contract signed by
Groenewagon, the closet motor-racer? Andrew's link was lacking in
substance, but here is the key:

"The UCI’s disciplinary commission has ruled that Groenewegen deviated from
his sprinting line in the final, committing a violation of the UCI regulations."

If you don't like PGA rules or their seemingly random enforcement, get
things changed before violating them -- or play baseball.
There's a regrettable tendency in several sports towards outrageous punishments for routine, forecastable sporting incidents, no malice, never mind preplanning by a perpetrator. Someone (Lou?) elsewhere in this thread thinks their motive is political correctness*, and that clearly plays a part, but it is also worth saying that the UCI is as incompetent, hypocritical and inconsistent a bunch of blazers as I've ever seen. Here it seems that their inadequate policing of the race route left an obvious hazard in place, and that they're punishing a rider for the predictable disaster that followed from that failure.

All the way up the the mouthfoaming fanatics of WADA demanding that athletes prove themselves innocent of drug abuse -- because they're too incompetent to catch anybody. Too demand that someone proves himself innocent, or prove a negative, is an assault on a basic human right to be considered innocent until proven otherwise, no exception, especially no exception for incompetent bureaucrats.
All of the racers from the Lance Armstrong Era consider him the winner. Drugs helped recovery and could wake you up when you were too low on sleep, but they didn't make you any faster than your body was capable of doing. I do not like athletes using drugs because of the effects it can have after their careers are over. Pantani was a good example.


LA was an ass to many people including his colleages . When the when the opportunity arose it was pay back time.

Lou


True, but as in so many fields, personality aside, he won.
Repeatedly. You can't take that away.

And apparently wasn't doing anything that every other top rider of his
era was doing :-)


Same dope, same bike, same climbs, same wind, same
opportunities but Lance had more je ne sais quoi and you
don't either.

I'm not defending his asshole personality or the chronic
lying but after all, he persevered to win. Repeatedly.
Hmmm. That reminds me of another Famous Person.

Re asshole personality.
When I was in the Air Force I shot on Base and major command pistol
teams and at some of the "big" matches the USAF "Blue" Team would be
there - these are the guys that shoot in the Olympics - and it was
notable that they were all "arrogant *******s", to coin a phrase,
absolutely certain, and quite willing to tell you, that they were the
best in the world.

We - my team - were talking about this one time at the National
Matches and the consensus was that it would be pretty hard to stand up
there in the Olympics if you didn't positively believe that you were
the best.

I think that this must be an attribute of all top athletes and the
"nice guys" just cover it up better.
--
Cheers,

John B.