Two tires

Phil W Lee wrote:
jim beam considered Sat, 18 Oct 2008
15:36:02 -0700 the perfect time to write:

Phil W Lee wrote:
considered Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:22:40
+0200 the perfect time to write:

writes:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:59:22 -0500, Ben C wrote:

On 2008-10-18, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:03:13 +0200,
wrote:

writes:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 05:51:35 +0200,
wrote:
[...]
There appears to be a lot of nonsense about tyres on roads. Not all tyres
are equal. A road is not a smooth surface. Real cycling in streets often
means cycling over kerbs and other obstacles.

It appears to me to be absolutely ludicrous to say that a slick has the
same grip as a knobbly tyre for this.

I have fairly slick slicks on at times and I can tell you for a fact
that there is fare more tendency to slide in wet weather than when some
more pronounced "grip" tyres.
Dear Penny,

What sort of tire tread do the pros favor when the cobblestones are
wet and muddy between Paris and Roubaix?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
I can only say I am not a pro.

And I can state that slicks in town are, for me, dangerous.
Dear Penny,

What kind of tread pattern do pros favor when riding through towns and
mountain passes in the Tour de France, the Giro, and the Vuelta?

They ride faster and closer to each other, while cornering and braking
harder than riders who aren't pros, even in the rain.
But their biggest priority is speed-- there might be a tyre that gripped
a wet road or cobbled street better but they wouldn't use it if it was
slower on the dry bits.
Dear Ben,

What tread pattern do the pros switch to on rainy days?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
Dear Carl,

Why are you such an idiot?

What tyres to F1 cars use and which one does your grandmother use on her
Ford Fiesta? And which ones does she use in Germany in Winter?
What is the width of the tread blocks on the F1 wet weather tyre?
What is the width of the contact patch of a slick cycle tyre?
What is the pressure between the tread surface and the road (or track)
in each case?
when are you going to differentiate between contact traction and
hydroplaning?

At the point when you can explain how contact traction is affected by
the presence or absence of a tread pattern.

i already have. you must have missed it. or you're just choosing not
to pay attention.

bottom line, you're obfuscating the point about larger contact patch
offering more traction, a friction problem, with hydroplaning which is a
fluid dynamics problem.

landotter wrote:
On Oct 18, 5:44�pm, jim beam wrote:

have you looked up close at michelin pro race tires? �23mm are
completely slick. �25mm are finely textured. �why is that?

It's a branding gimmick

**** dude, i know this is r.b.t, but can't we leave the option open for
function just once in a while? if i were michelin, there's no way i'd
texture a mold on an already branded and established product, at
phenomenal expense i might add, unless i had a damned good reason to do so.


to make them stand out in the box. Doesn't do
any harm and might make them look nice on the bike. I don't mind a bit
of tread if it adds a bit of pizzazz to an otherwise boring area, as
long as it's not overdone.

Carl Sundquist wrote:

"jim beam" wrote in message
...

have you looked up close at michelin pro race tires? 23mm are
completely slick. 25mm are finely textured. why is that? any
relation to the fact that most people switch out to 25's in the rainy
season?


Can you show where the Pro2 Race 25mm is textured?

no, this is usenet, not a séance. i invited self-inspection so we don't
have the usual bull**** about unsupported assertions - alien though that
may be to some.



The Pro3 Race is not even offered in 25mm

look back to the previous model that had them then.

wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 22:21:30 +0200,
wrote:

writes:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:03:13 +0200,
wrote:

writes:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 05:51:35 +0200,
wrote:

Michael Press writes:

In article ,
"OughtFour" wrote:

Could anyone compare & contrast the Vittoria Zaffiro versus the Panaracer
Pasella TG?

These are both wire beaded tires with Kevlar-like belts that come in 27"
sizes. I enjoy medium-length recreational rides, and the occasional century,
on roads of varying quality.

I should add that I have without any particular design put both tires on my
bike, the VZ on the rear and the Pana on the front. I'm happy with both but
trying to figure out, do I standardized and if so to what?
No need to standardize. Less pattern in the tread is better.
When you say 27" you refer to ISO 630 mm?

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/index.html
There appears to be a lot of nonsense about tyres on roads. Not all tyres
are equal. A road is not a smooth surface. Real cycling in streets often
means cycling over kerbs and other obstacles.

It appears to me to be absolutely ludicrous to say that a slick has the
same grip as a knobbly tyre for this.

I have fairly slick slicks on at times and I can tell you for a fact
that there is fare more tendency to slide in wet weather than when some
more pronounced "grip" tyres.
Dear Penny,

What sort of tire tread do the pros favor when the cobblestones are
wet and muddy between Paris and Roubaix?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
I can only say I am not a pro.

And I can state that slicks in town are, for me, dangerous.
Dear Penny,

What kind of tread pattern do pros favor when riding through towns and
mountain passes in the Tour de France, the Giro, and the Vuelta?

They ride faster and closer to each other, while cornering and braking
harder than riders who aren't pros, even in the rain.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
Why do you keep asking me about pros on their wonderful thorough bred
bikes?

I dont ride one. I ride a heavily laden touring bike which sometimes is
not so laden. On city roads and pavements.

Dear Penny,

Why do you think that pros, who can use any tires they please, would
use tires that have poorer traction when it's raining at the starting
line?

Why do you think that pros abandoned treaded tires years ago?

Can you post a photo of your "knobbly" tread tire?

Or let us know what brand and model you favor, so we can see the tread
pattern on some site that sells them?

Are you talking about this kind of faint pebble-grain or herringbone
tread, worn off in the center of a 700x26?
http://i33.tinypic.com/24q3gux.jpg

Or this kind of knobby tire?

http://www.performancebike.com/produ...8-NCL-PAIR.jpg

Or something in-between?

You can see a fair selection of tires he
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_id=5430
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_id=5420
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_id=5425

You might tell us the dimensions of your contact patch, the pressure
that you use, the speeds that you reach, and so forth.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel


with the exception of michelin, every tire here has a tread:

http://www.coloradocyclist.com/product/display/25110/

same he
http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?p...jor=1&minor=27

the vittoria pavé model has a more pronounced tread than their other
road tires.

now do we get into the b.s. about "well, that's not really a tread"?

On Oct 18, 7:21*am, jim beam wrote:
Penny wrote:
Michael Press writes:

In article ,
*"OughtFour" wrote:

Could anyone compare & contrast the Vittoria Zaffiro versus the Panaracer
Pasella TG?

These are both wire beaded tires with Kevlar-like belts that come in 27"
sizes. I enjoy medium-length recreational rides, and the occasional century,
on roads of varying quality.

I should add that I have without any particular design put both tires on my
bike, the VZ on the rear and the Pana on the front. I'm happy with both but
trying to figure out, do I standardized and if so to what?
No need to standardize. Less pattern in the tread is better.
When you say 27" you refer to ISO 630 mm?

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/index.html

There appears to be a lot of nonsense about tyres on roads. Not all tyres
are equal. A road is not a smooth surface. Real cycling in streets often
means cycling over kerbs and other obstacles.

It appears to me to be absolutely ludicrous to say that a slick has the
same grip as a knobbly tyre for this.

I have fairly slick slicks on at times and I can tell you for a fact
that there is fare more tendency to slide in wet weather than when some
more pronounced "grip" tyres.

but but but, the great jobst brandt has declared slicks to be superior.
indeed, he even claims to have /invented/ slick tires!!! *apparently,
manufacturers that insist that tread "cogs" with road surfaces are
merely liars and fools.

You keep using this word "cogging." I'm having trouble finding
anything form a tire manufacturer, or, hey, even another amateur that
uses the same word... All my searches come up with is "cogging" as a
property of electrical motors, which I presume is not at all related.

Because of this uncommon terminology it's kind of hard to see what
you're getting at. You seem particularly concerned with the action of
the tread when there is debris on top of an otherwise hard surface,
but I'm not sure what exactly is going on between the tire, debris,
and surface in that case that tread would affect. Can you elaborate?

-pm

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Oct 18, 2:08 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:

Unfortunately, in my experience,

the tires with the best compound (the Michelin ProRace for example) do
not come in large enough sizes and are too expensive. -- Jay Beattie.
The Pro2race are very good tires but they certainly do not excel in the
wet. That is one of the reason they came up with the ProRace 3.

I am riding on an old stock pile of ProRace -- first generation, and
they are quite good in the rain, a lot like the old SuperCompHD. I
didn't know that people didn't like the 2s in the wet that much. Do
you have a favorite -- it's time for me to go shopping for winter
gear. -- Jay Beattie.

Like I said the ProRace (not the ProRace3 they are not flat resistent)
is still a very good allround tire. I'm 'testing' at the moment two sets
of tires the Schwalbe Ultremo and the Continental GP 4000S. They are
both excellent tires. They don't cut up so easy as the Pro2Race do; my
major complaint with them. The Ultremo's are a little narrow for a 23 mm
tire but although they are very light I haven't had a flat with them.
According to TOUR magazine the Continental GP4000S are the best allround
tires at the moment.

Lou

Carl Sundquist wrote:

"jim beam" wrote in message
...

have you looked up close at michelin pro race tires? 23mm are
completely slick. 25mm are finely textured. why is that? any
relation to the fact that most people switch out to 25's in the rainy
season?


Can you show where the Pro2 Race 25mm is textured?

The Pro3 Race is not even offered in 25mm


The texture is a little different, but I would not call that a thread.

Lou

Henny Penny wrote:

Could anyone compare & contrast the Vittoria Zaffiro versus the
Panaracer Pasella TG?

These are both wire beaded tires with Kevlar-like belts that
come in 27" sizes. I enjoy medium-length recreational rides,
and the occasional century, on roads of varying quality.

I should add that I have without any particular design put both
tires on my bike, the VZ on the rear and the Pana on the front.
I'm happy with both but trying to figure out, do I standardized
and if so to what?

No need to standardize. Less pattern in the tread is better.
When you say 27" you refer to ISO 630 mm?

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/index.html

There appears to be a lot of nonsense about tyres on roads. Not
all tyres are equal. A road is not a smooth surface. Real
cycling in streets often means cycling over kerbs and other
obstacles.

It appears to me to be absolutely ludicrous to say that a slick
has the same grip as a knobbly tyre for this.

I have fairly slick slicks on at times and I can tell you for a
fact that there is fare more tendency to slide in wet weather than
when some more pronounced "grip" tyres.

but but but, the great jobst brandt has declared slicks to be
superior. indeed, he even claims to have /invented/ slick tires!!!
apparently, manufacturers that insist that tread "cogs" with road
surfaces are merely liars and fools.

This is what I mean. I KNOW from experience that slicks in town in
wet weather are dangerous for me on my bike. Even so far as the
bike going from under me when drifting right and coming up against a
slightly raised paving stone or road panel.

I also see the usual suspects who parrot everything Jobst says are
out in force.

I wonder why goats bother having cleft hooves?

Goats do not have wheels, nor do camels.

"A mountain goat's hoofs have hard sharp edges surrounding a soft
inner area. The sharp hoofs are also used for defense. There are
four hoofs per foot, two of which strike the ground. The two halves
of a mountain goat's hoof can move independently of one another,
enabling it to get a better grip while climbing."

I suppose those who have been at the beach will recall that walking
through dunes of dry sand works well on bare feet... that have no
tread pattern nor horny projections. We were talking about bicycle
tires, not hooves and feet that move digitally rather than rolling
continuously. These ploys do not make convincing explanations for wet
traction. Maybe looking to road motorcycle tires might help.

Jobst Brandt

Hennt Penny wrote:


Which part of the "road is not a smooth surface" is so confusing
in this ng today?

If the road is rough, why would your need to be?

Why are suction cups not knobblier? The mind just boggles!

Yours clearly does if you are equating a suction cup sticking to a
smooth surface using vacuum as an anecdote for why slicks are better
for in city cycling.

If you think suction cups improve wet traction then you must believe
that tread patterns like the sharp edge of a squeegee and the rim of a
suction cup work differently than they do. Place a suction cup on a
wet pane of glass and notice how easily it slides about on that
surface. If the surface is rough, no suction will occur.

Beyond that, as I often mention, tribology is a greatly misunderstood
science, shown by the admiration of pictures of garden snails climbing
over the edge of razor blades. Admired by people who don't think of
what a razor does as it glides on water over one's skin. Likewise,
tread patterns cannot dislodge critical water from a road.

Additionally, squealing bicycle brakes do so because rims have
adsorbed humidity that can only be displaced by heat or dry air.
Assuming bicycle rims are not contaminated with salts, one can
estimate weather humidity by how strongly brakes, that have a tendency
to do so, squeal.


Jobst Brandt

wrote:
Hennt Penny wrote:


Which part of the "road is not a smooth surface" is so confusing
in this ng today?

If the road is rough, why would your need to be?

Why are suction cups not knobblier? The mind just boggles!

Yours clearly does if you are equating a suction cup sticking to a
smooth surface using vacuum as an anecdote for why slicks are better
for in city cycling.

If you think suction cups improve wet traction then you must believe
that tread patterns like the sharp edge of a squeegee and the rim of a
suction cup work differently than they do. Place a suction cup on a
wet pane of glass and notice how easily it slides about on that
surface. If the surface is rough, no suction will occur.

jeepers jobst - do you ever read what other posters say or follow a
thread? or do you just glom onto key words and launch from there?
[rhetorical] because penny is not the one obfuscating and bull****ting
about suction cups, that's landotter.

and your analogy is utterly confused - boundary layers and surface
texture conformance are not the same thing.



Beyond that, as I often mention, tribology is a greatly misunderstood
science,

goddamned hypocrite. jobst, you are by far the biggest single source of
misinformation on this group - and your fundamental lack of
understanding of many subjects, tribology being just one of them, is the
cause. remember your bull**** about bike bearings being
elasto-hydrodynamically separated? and let's talk brinelling as well
while we're at it!



shown by the admiration of pictures of garden snails climbing
over the edge of razor blades. Admired by people who don't think of
what a razor does as it glides on water over one's skin. Likewise,
tread patterns cannot dislodge critical water from a road.

obfuscatory bull****.



Additionally, squealing bicycle brakes do so because rims have
adsorbed humidity that can only be displaced by heat or dry air.
Assuming bicycle rims are not contaminated with salts, one can
estimate weather humidity by how strongly brakes, that have a tendency
to do so, squeal.

see above.