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High visibility law yields no improvement in safety



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 30th 18, 05:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,168
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

https://www.bikebiz.com/news/hivis-compulsion-study

--
- Frank Krygowski
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  #2  
Old March 30th 18, 06:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 8,705
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:23:18 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.bikebiz.com/news/hivis-compulsion-study

--
- Frank Krygowski


All we have here are opinions. Give us some data, Franki-boy.

In fact, the nearest thing to a hard fact we see in this article is the predictable opinion, but still on the face of it only an opinion, that the Italians didn't enforce their law. That would invalidate the whole study, and its conclusion.

I really must say, Franki-boy, that for someone so keen on arguing whether studies whose results your politics do not approve of were conducted according to the most copacetic rules of statistics, you let the side down when you push out non-specific **** like this article, right down to quoting some wimpish British minister betting five bob each way.

Do better, Franki-boy.

Unsigned out of contempt for this crap, and its pusher.
  #3  
Old March 30th 18, 07:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,168
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On 3/30/2018 1:30 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:23:18 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.bikebiz.com/news/hivis-compulsion-study

--
- Frank Krygowski


All we have here are opinions. Give us some data, Franki-boy.

In fact, the nearest thing to a hard fact we see in this article is the predictable opinion, but still on the face of it only an opinion, that the Italians didn't enforce their law. That would invalidate the whole study, and its conclusion.

I really must say, Franki-boy, that for someone so keen on arguing whether studies whose results your politics do not approve of were conducted according to the most copacetic rules of statistics, you let the side down when you push out non-specific **** like this article, right down to quoting some wimpish British minister betting five bob each way.

Do better, Franki-boy.

Unsigned out of contempt for this crap, and its pusher.


Jute, I posted a link to an article. I posted no comment on the article,
nor on the research described in the article. Your vile spew is
triggered only by the imaginary products of your cholesterol-addled brain.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #4  
Old March 30th 18, 11:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 8,705
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 7:05:25 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/30/2018 1:30 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:23:18 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.bikebiz.com/news/hivis-compulsion-study

--
- Frank Krygowski


All we have here are opinions. Give us some data, Franki-boy.

In fact, the nearest thing to a hard fact we see in this article is the predictable opinion, but still on the face of it only an opinion, that the Italians didn't enforce their law. That would invalidate the whole study, and its conclusion.

I really must say, Franki-boy, that for someone so keen on arguing whether studies whose results your politics do not approve of were conducted according to the most copacetic rules of statistics, you let the side down when you push out non-specific **** like this article, right down to quoting some wimpish British minister betting five bob each way.

Do better, Franki-boy.

Unsigned out of contempt for this crap, and its pusher.


Jute, I posted a link to an article. I posted no comment on the article,
nor on the research described in the article. Your vile spew is
triggered only by the imaginary products of your cholesterol-addled brain..

--
- Frank Krygowski


So you admit that your positive, definitive headline --
"High visibility law yields no improvement in safety"
-- is an outright lie, do you then, Franki-boy?

Those words appear nowhere in the article, so you made them up based on complete lack of data, and tried to mislead us.

Every time we try to hold you to an irreducible minimum of academic rectitude -- which in these days of slackass, jumped-up welding instructors being made "professors" admittedly is not a high barrier -- you start with your stupid personal attacks.

It won't wash, Franki-boy. Give us facts, or **** off.

Unsigned out of contempt for a deliberate liar.
  #5  
Old March 30th 18, 11:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,335
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:23:18 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.bikebiz.com/news/hivis-compulsion-study

--
- Frank Krygowski


The article says "The study did not evaluate the clothing used by those involved in crashes." So I'm not sure what is being studied in this article. My state recently had a high visibility law proposed. It was defeated, or not voted on. It was for cyclists to wear high visibility, reflective clothing, at ALL times, day and night.
  #6  
Old March 31st 18, 01:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 3,967
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:48:50 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:23:18 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.bikebiz.com/news/hivis-compulsion-study

--
- Frank Krygowski


The article says "The study did not evaluate the clothing used by those involved in crashes." So I'm not sure what is being studied in this article. My state recently had a high visibility law proposed. It was defeated, or not voted on. It was for cyclists to wear high visibility, reflective clothing, at ALL times, day and night.


If you follow the links in the article it leads to a reference to a
study published by a Laura Thomas, described as a legal expert, that
recommends changing the law to tackle the issue of dangerous and
careless cycling that causes injury or death.

It seems to imply that a substantial number of bicycle accidents are
caused by dangerious and careless acts by the cyclist him/her self.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #7  
Old March 31st 18, 01:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 3,305
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 3:48:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:23:18 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.bikebiz.com/news/hivis-compulsion-study

--
- Frank Krygowski


The article says "The study did not evaluate the clothing used by those involved in crashes." So I'm not sure what is being studied in this article.. My state recently had a high visibility law proposed. It was defeated, or not voted on. It was for cyclists to wear high visibility, reflective clothing, at ALL times, day and night.


I tried to pull the study on LEXIS, but it is not published in a journal yet. I think the study just looked at accident rates pre and post-law. It apparently evaluated the success of the law rather than the success of conspicuous clothing.

I don't know how you could possibly control one of these experiments. Around here, the reflective vest folks probably do have a lower injury rate because they ride at six miles an hour, and a wall impact would result in nothing more than a rubber smudge on the wall. Here's some scholarly work on high-viz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZRXlrJ3Mi0


-- Jay Beattie.



  #8  
Old March 31st 18, 01:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 8,705
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:48:52 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:23:18 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.bikebiz.com/news/hivis-compulsion-study

--
- Frank Krygowski


The article says "The study did not evaluate the clothing used by those involved in crashes." So I'm not sure what is being studied in this article.. My state recently had a high visibility law proposed. It was defeated, or not voted on. It was for cyclists to wear high visibility, reflective clothing, at ALL times, day and night.


From the article:
"The Italian wear-reflectives-at-night-law is poorly enforced and therefore largely ignored. The study did not evaluate the clothing used by those involved in crashes."

That leaves another Krygowski nothingburger. Perhaps he thought we'd read his deceptive headline and pass on without checking the article. I don't know how Franki-boy can fall victim to that sort of dumb wishful thinking every time.

AJ
Come on, Franki-boy! Tell us what that leaves.
  #9  
Old March 31st 18, 02:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 8,705
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 1:24:59 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:

I tried to pull the study on LEXIS, but it is not published in a journal yet. I think the study just looked at accident rates pre and post-law. It apparently evaluated the success of the law rather than the success of conspicuous clothing.


So what Franki-boy is telling us is that Italians are scofflaws. Much less offensive, stereotyped opinions than that one can get you fired from even a tenured position at American colleges these days. Here's a case in your own backyard: https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...ias-tribunals/

I don't know how you could possibly control one of these experiments.


No problem. In a real experiment, you would compare like with like, for instance you would establish that the law was obeyed or enforced where it was ignored, and that the mandated or available clothing was actually visible at night, and then you would measure the change in cycling rates over the period you're studying, and find a control group (presumably in a country next door with similar cycling conditions but without the visibility law), at which point, after you've made adjustments for all the variables you found, you should be able to make a comparison for your population of interest between two time periods within calculable margins of confidence. All of this sounds like very much more trouble and expense than was undertaken in that Italian academic's makework "study". In fact, her study, and Krygowski's slimy attempt to pass it off as meaningful, both remind me of the Zimmerman "study" of 76 "scientists" on which the lie that "97% of scientist agree that global warming is manmade" was based.

However, you mustn't go into the project with unrealistic expectations. This business, common in cycling and government circles, of a hard number to answer such complicated statistical questions exists strictly in the minds of those entirely ignorant of real-life demography and its representation in sampling statistics. I'm looking at you, Franki-boy. Statisticians, sociologists, psychologists, economists and other applied mathematicians who work in these fields -- and who have vastly more financial and human resources available than some random academic more interested in publication-for-promotion than knowledge--soon learn to temper their expectations of results to their understanding that correct formulation of the hypothesis and intelligent interpretation of the situation and the results are together more than half the requirement for formulation of a meaningful policy directive from sampling research.

AJ
  #10  
Old March 31st 18, 03:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,053
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 8:24:59 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 3:48:52 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:23:18 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
https://www.bikebiz.com/news/hivis-compulsion-study

--
- Frank Krygowski


The article says "The study did not evaluate the clothing used by those involved in crashes." So I'm not sure what is being studied in this article. My state recently had a high visibility law proposed. It was defeated, or not voted on. It was for cyclists to wear high visibility, reflective clothing, at ALL times, day and night.


I tried to pull the study on LEXIS, but it is not published in a journal yet. I think the study just looked at accident rates pre and post-law. It apparently evaluated the success of the law rather than the success of conspicuous clothing.


That's the impression I got, too.

- Frank Krygowski

 




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