flaw in Routes des Grandes Alpes of France

The northern section of the "official" Route des Grandes Alpes is not very
"grand" and not very "alpine".

But there is an alternate "grander" route, and now I've ridden the key parts
of it (after previous riding the "official" version) -- and the "grander"
alternative definitely was more spectacular and more interesting. I think it
truly presents the "Grandes Alpes" -- indeed the "grandest" of the entire
route from the Mediterranean sea to Lac Leman. Here's some photos:
http://www.roberts-1.com/t/b07/f/k/j
Thanks to Jobst for suggesting the Gorges du Trient, and I thought of him
when I took the photo of the train alongside the route.

The "official" northern section of the Route des Grandes Alpes goes over Col
des Gets (altitude 1170m) to connect between Col de la Colombiere (south of
Scionzier and Cluses) and the south shore of Lac Leman (Lake Geneva). The
"high peak" near there is Roc d'Enfer (2243m).

The "grander" alternate version goes thru Sallanches and Chamonix, then over
Col des Montets (altitude 1461m), clearly higher than Col des Gets. Next it
can over Col de la Forclaz (1527m) or down the Gorges du Trient to connect
with Martigny. Finally this route could either stay low in the Rhone valley
to connect with Lac Leman (Lake Geneva), or it climb over yet one more pass,
Pas de Morgins (1369m) back into France. Mountains prominently in view close
above the road in that alternate version are Mont Blanc (4808m) and Aiguille
Verte (4122m) and other great mountains -- all far higher and more
spectacular and "alpine" than the one along the "official" route.

I'm guessing that the makers of the "official" route did not choose that
grander alternative because part of it goes outside of France, thru
Switzerland. But the mountains along this northern section are the grandest
mountains of _France_. So they properly belong on the Route. To maintain a
big Route which avoids getting up close to Mont Blanc massif is a denial of
the greatness of the _French_ Grandes Alpes.

Argument over principle aside, I really enjoyed riding the lesser-known
roads from Sallanches to Servoz to les Houches to Chamonix, and I always
like being there in the town of Chamonix (this was my first time on a
bicycle). I could have used less traffic between Chamonix and Argentiere -
(interesting that the day I rode they reserved the tunnel for the bicycles
and required the cars to go around it outside.) And less traffic on around
the curves up to Col des Montets. Then I liked riding in the valley thru le
Buet and Vallorcine to the France-Switzerland border.

After climbing up to the village of Finhaut I found the unpaved trail to
Salvan, but I did not much like doing it in the downhill direction: much too
steep to be fun for me. I met another cyclist taking it uphill. And the
gorge was not as spectacular as I was hoping -- at least not most of what I
could see from the path, which was lots and lots of trees. Then lower down
after I rejoined the road, I much enjoyed the downhills and curves and big
views down into the Rhone valley. I also rode over Col de la Forclaz, and I
liked that too.

But I did not get a chance to try riding over Pas de Morgins. I'd be glad
to hear reports about it (including Does it offer a great view of the Dents
du Midi?)

Ken

On 27 Set, 01:02, "Ken Roberts"

I also rode over Col de la Forclaz, and I
liked that too.

Which is my most hated Col, ever.
Very busy, hot and dry, unforgivingly and consistently steep.
A real pain for an august afternoon of many years ago.
Always dodged ever since ... .

Sergio
Pisa

sergio wrote
I also rode over Col de la Forclaz
Which is my most hated Col, ever.
Very busy, hot and dry, unforgivingly and consistently steep.
A real pain for an august afternoon of many years ago.
Always dodged ever since ... .

For you there is the alternative of the Gorges du Trient thru Salvan and
Finhaut.

I'm not proposing this Forclaz (not to be confused with at least two other
"Forclaz" passes) as one of the great cols of Europe. Just that there were
some pretty views from the road on both sides of the pass (prettier than
some other passes I've crossed), the road was decently wide and well-paved,
it was a satisfying challange to get up it. And the setting of the lower
section looking out over the vineyards and "big bend" of the Rhone valley is
different from most other climbs.

I think the key with Forclaz is what expectations you bring to it and what
direction you ride it.

I did see other riders on it, and I assume they were not all ignorant
visitors from USA. More of them were going in the direction toward Martigny
(SW - NE) than away from Martigny. (I was going away). Which means they
were taking the biggest sustained incline with the most car traffic in the
downhill direction, while enjoying the nice views over Rhone valley.

What's tricky for interpreting that observation is that there's three ways
to get to be riding down that section: (1) by first climbing up the same way
from Martigny earlier in the morning when it was cooler and less traffic;
(2) by taking the train which I photographed from Martigny to le Chatelard
at the France-Switzerland border or further into France to le Buet or
Chamonix or even St Gervais and then riding one-way to Switzerland; (3)
climbing up from Martigny thru the Gorges du Trient and returning over Col
de la Forclaz.
The least attractive of those seems like option (1), especially if you
modify it to option (1b): climbing up on a hot afternoon.

Very busy

I expected lots of car traffic, since I've driven my car over that pass
several times. I didn't like that aspect, but the road was decently wide, so
I felt it was managable. If climbing up from Martigny riding up the first
long switchback could be intimidating, because on your left side are cars
and motorcycles whizzing by at high speed immediately to your right is a
very steep drop-off into the vineyards, protected by only a guardrail. A
different perspective is that it's a big "balcony" view of the Rhone valley,
and by taking it in the uphill direction you're getting lots of time to
savor it. Yet another perspective is that overcoming the intimidation of
that first switchback makes reaching the top more satisfying.

... unforgivingly and consistently steep.

Less so than Colle dell'Agnello from Chianale, or the north side of
Sampeyre.

I started well-hydrated and well-fed, and I stopped several times for photos
and each time made sure to drink and eat more sweets. A couple of years ago
I went thru my phase of "proving" that I could get to the top of big famous
climbs without stopping, so now I'm free to just climb with whatever
strategy or technique feels right at the moment.

Ken

Well, Ken, it's fun to compare different people's experiences.

That first time I ever rode from the Rhone Valley to Chamnonix was
probably in 1973.
The day before I had gone from Brig up to Zermatt and back down to
Sierre. The following day I wanted to go through Chamonix.
On Col de la Forclaz I suffered really badly hunger and thirst, to the
point that I drank from a creek, taking my risks (I think there are
still no supply points along the way).
Up higher I started riding at times on the left, just to be in the
shadow from the trees.

When I later happened to be in the area again, I always took care not
to ride up from Martigny. I did plan it the other way around.
About four years ago, after going up from Sion to Sanetsch and back, I
boarded a bus in Martigny, I got off at Forclaz and rode over through
Chamonix to Saint Gervais.

It is certainly not the steepest, nor the toughest by all means, road.
It is just consistently steep, quite monotonous in fact.
I just hate it, and never wanted to struggle on it ever again. You
see, I feel I have nothing to prove about it.
So badly I hate it!

Sergio
Pisa

After that experience I can see why you'd never do it again.

Actually Sergio is right: Col de la Forclaz really is fairly steep climbing
from Martigny: sustained around 8% grade (similar to Alpe d'Huez).

btw some maps indicate that Martigny - Forclaz has a 12% grade section. I'm
convinced this is not true. My suspicion is that decades ago there was a 12%
section, but since then the road has been modernized and re-routed so it's
no longer there. But the mapmakers prefer to leave the steeper number if
they're not sure, because very few drivers or cyclists complain if they find
that a road is easier than they were led to expect.

Col des Montets -- Similarly I did not find anything like a 12% grade
climbing up its north side, despite what some maps may say. btw I saw
indications that France is planning to build a road tunnel under Col des
Montets. (Which fits with the new ski lift they built at Vallorcine -- a
couple of years ago in March I went up that lift then climbed higher on skis
and finished by descending to Trient, Switzerland).

My "Carte cyclotouristique" / "Touristic Cycling Map" of Switzerland by
Kuemmerly+Frey and swisstravelcenter.ch marks the Col de la Forclaz road as
in the category of "Routes recommandees par l'ATE" / "Bicycle routes
recommended by the Swiss Association for Transport and Environment". Also in
that category is the Gorges du Trient thru Salvan + Finhaut. Of course
Martigny - Salvan - Finhaut has a section _much_ steeper than anything on
Forclaz -- unless you're an elite rider, just plan on walking that part.

Ken

On Sep 27, 4:01 pm, "Ken Roberts"

btw some maps indicate that Martigny - Forclaz has a 12% grade section. I'm
convinced this is not true. My suspicion is that decades ago there was a 12%

There is a picture you must dig out from the section between pages 160
and 161 of the book:'Wij waren allemaal goden' by Benjo Maso.
There are cyclists walking their bikes up Col de la Forclaz; among
them Alfredo Binda and Colombo. So, you could be right. although, as
you know, there are several Col de la Forclaz in the Alps.
Another possibility is that the old road was that one through the
gorge, the one that Jobst has repeatedly talked about (and which I
never covered in fact).
That main road shooting up from Martigny does really appear to be
quite modern. An acquaintence of mine (a friend of Jobst's from Ivrea,
in fact) once said to me: 'It looks like it has been designed with the
help of a computer, it being so steady and consistent in grade'.
I would second that.

P.s. Should we ask my friend Benjo about that picture?

Col des Montets -- Similarly I did not find anything like a 12% grade
climbing up its north side,

If I remember well, there is a very steep stretch going down from
Forclaz towards Vallorcine and a shorter shoulder to get to Col de
Montets therefrom.

Sergio
Pisa

sergio wrote
Col des Montets -- Similarly I did not find anything like
a 12% grade climbing up its north side,
If I remember well, there is a very steep stretch going down
from Forclaz towards Vallorcine and a shorter shoulder to
get to Col de Montets therefrom.

Maybe that shows that memory for slope steepness is tricky (I know mine is
faulty, that's why I've come to rely on slope measurements from
topographical maps), or that roads change.

The map I was looking at claimed 9% steepness grade for the southwest side
of Forclaz (toward le Chatelard and Vallorcine). There's a steepness profile
for that climb on the right side of this page:
http://climbbybike.com/climb.asp?qryMountainID=5294
shows a section of +250 vertical meters sustained around 7.5% grade.
Not to be taken lightly, but it's not 9% and it's not 12% steepness grade.
Definitely not as hard as the longer climb on the other side of Forclaz (the
northeast side toward Martigny), which has +570 vertical meters sustained
over 8% grade, followed by another +400 meters over 7% grade.

One map I've got claimed 12% steepness grade for the north side of Montets
(toward Vallorcine). There's a steepness profile for the north side of
Montets on the right side of this page:
http://climbbybike.com/climb.asp?qryMountainID=6532
which fits my perception thru my legs: Nothing near as steep as 12%.

Anyway climbing over Montets and Forclaz are likely more difficult (and
surely longer) than the "official" Route des Grandes Alpes over les Gets --
but bicycling thru the "Grandes Alpes" is _supposed_ to be a difficult
accomplishment.

Ken