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Trust Carbon Fork After Wreck?
I got hit from the side the other day. Car was going maybe 15mph. Bumper hit my knee and front wheel. Knocked me off the bike. Bent the wheel. No obvious damage to the fork or carbon rear stay and I left it with the LBS to check out. But absent any visible wrinkles how much can one trust carbon stuff esp the fork bars and stem after a shot like that? It's got a carbon steerer. I had a StupidLight seat post break last year unexpectedly (I weigh 140lbs) so I'm kinda leery of trusting the fork. thanks, bill g -- |
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#2
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Trust Carbon Fork After Wreck?
bg wrote: I got hit from the side the other day. Car was going maybe 15mph. Bumper hit my knee and front wheel. Knocked me off the bike. Bent the wheel. No obvious damage to the fork or carbon rear stay and I left it with the LBS to check out. But absent any visible wrinkles how much can one trust carbon stuff esp the fork bars and stem after a shot like that? It's got a carbon steerer. I had a StupidLight seat post break last year unexpectedly (I weigh 140lbs) so I'm kinda leery of trusting the fork. thanks, bill g -- You cannot and I recommend replacing all carbon that saw an impact. Carbon fiber fails by breaking, not bending. We had a customer that fell down, pretty undramatic but she killed he carbon fork, BUT it wasn't obviously broken, just a front wheel that wasn't centered anymore... |
#3
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Trust Carbon Fork After Wreck?
bg wrote:
I got hit from the side the other day. Car was going maybe 15mph. Bumper hit my knee and front wheel. Knocked me off the bike. Bent the wheel. No obvious damage to the fork or carbon rear stay and I left it with the LBS to check out. But absent any visible wrinkles how much can one trust carbon stuff esp the fork bars and stem after a shot like that? It's got a carbon steerer. I had a StupidLight seat post break last year unexpectedly collar probably over-tightened and cracked the tube. (I weigh 140lbs) so I'm kinda leery of trusting the fork. thanks, bill g do the squeeze test. [google for details] if it passes, keep on riding it. carbon is stronger than steel. scratches in the clearcoat mean nothing. i have carbon forks that have been in impacts severe enough to give haematomas in the palms on both hands and to smash rims - and both forks are fine. i'm #205. |
#4
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Trust Carbon Fork After Wreck?
jim beam wrote: bg wrote: I got hit from the side the other day. Car was going maybe 15mph. Bumper hit my knee and front wheel. Knocked me off the bike. Bent the wheel. No obvious damage to the fork or carbon rear stay and I left it with the LBS to check out. But absent any visible wrinkles how much can one trust carbon stuff esp the fork bars and stem after a shot like that? It's got a carbon steerer. I had a StupidLight seat post break last year unexpectedly collar probably over-tightened and cracked the tube. (I weigh 140lbs) so I'm kinda leery of trusting the fork. thanks, bill g do the squeeze test. [google for details] if it passes, keep on riding it. carbon is stronger than steel. scratches in the clearcoat mean nothing. i have carbon forks that have been in impacts severe enough to give haematomas in the palms on both hands and to smash rims - and both forks are fine. i'm #205. You gamble with this gents teeth pretty readily. Carbon is stronger than steel for a given weight. Carbon use is lots lighter than steel, so not necessariluy 'stronger'. Steel bends, carbon breaks. We have had customers that have broken carbon handlebars, seatposts, rims, frames and forks.Many JRA..so MY suggestion is you be careful. |
#5
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Trust Carbon Fork After Wreck?
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
jim beam wrote: bg wrote: I got hit from the side the other day. Car was going maybe 15mph. Bumper hit my knee and front wheel. Knocked me off the bike. Bent the wheel. No obvious damage to the fork or carbon rear stay and I left it with the LBS to check out. But absent any visible wrinkles how much can one trust carbon stuff esp the fork bars and stem after a shot like that? It's got a carbon steerer. I had a StupidLight seat post break last year unexpectedly collar probably over-tightened and cracked the tube. (I weigh 140lbs) so I'm kinda leery of trusting the fork. thanks, bill g do the squeeze test. [google for details] if it passes, keep on riding it. carbon is stronger than steel. scratches in the clearcoat mean nothing. i have carbon forks that have been in impacts severe enough to give haematomas in the palms on both hands and to smash rims - and both forks are fine. i'm #205. You gamble with this gents teeth pretty readily. Carbon is stronger than steel for a given weight. Carbon use is lots lighter than steel, so not necessariluy 'stronger'. Steel bends, carbon breaks. We have had customers that have broken carbon handlebars, seatposts, rims, frames and forks.Many JRA..so MY suggestion is you be careful. we debated this a while back. care is indeed needed, and quality varies substantially with manufacturer [VERY bad experience with chinese-made kestrel forks]. but to remind you, this ratio is not just weight for weight. reynolds forks had graphs showing their forks /three/ times stronger than steel for less than half the weight. this is entirely in accordance with my attempts at destruction. i have bent several steel forks over the years and relatively low stresses. the two carbon forks i've "tested" have been much stronger. and frankly, if i was on the bike at impact levels sufficient to break them, i'd be in the e.r. regardless. |
#6
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Trust Carbon Fork After Wreck?
bg wrote: I got hit from the side the other day. Car was going maybe 15mph. Bumper hit my knee and front wheel. Knocked me off the bike. Bent the wheel. No obvious damage to the fork or carbon rear stay and I left it with the LBS to check out. But absent any visible wrinkles how much can one trust carbon stuff esp the fork bars and stem after a shot like that? It's got a carbon steerer. I had a StupidLight seat post break last year unexpectedly (I weigh 140lbs) so I'm kinda leery of trusting the fork. thanks, bill g -- Your question is a good one. You are right to be wondering if there is a different way to handle these things. I like to put it this way: Bicycle frame steel (and other ductile metals such as aluminum but to a lesser extent) gain their toughness through plastic deformation. You can overload a part, plastically deform it, but lose no strength (actually increased the strength). You retain most of the toughness if the plastic deformation was minor. You lose the toughness that was used up in the "strengthening" that went on with the overload. Perhaps most significantly, the rigidity of the part is unaffected. It will have the same resistance to bending (in the elastic range) as before. Fibrous composites have what I call "one time toughness." If you have an overload situation, the end result is a loss of stiffness, and a loss of most of the toughness, even for a relatively low overload. What happens is that you either microckrack the resin matrix, or or crack some fibers, or both. In an extreme overload, you pull fibers out of the matrix, but then you have failure rather than slight overload. A fibrous composite part that has been overloaded in to the pseudoplastic region of stress versus strain will sustain a permanent loss of bending stiffness, while retaining most of its tensile strength and showing no permanent set. However that residual tensile strength comes with very little toughness. What is thoughneess? It is quite simply the amount of energy that a structure can absorb before failure. A hi-modulus part with low plastic deformation to failure will have far less strain engergy absorbed before failure than a high modulus part that experiences significant plastic deformation before failure. Composites show very little plastic deformation to failure--especially carbon fiber composites. They have less toughness pound for pounbd than steel. Typcially the ratio of toughness is on the order of 10:1 This loss of stiffness after damage is a really interesting aspect of composite structures, but one which the LBS is unable to use to advantage in checking a part for damage. It is much easier to check a metal part for plastic deformation. You can measure it. In the composite part, you don't have a permanent set. Rather, you have internal structural changes that would be visible with ultrasonic detection (though not an easy task!), but not neccessarily the naked eye. So, back to your situation. The prudent thing is to discard the parts. I don't mean give away. I mean destroy and replace. Nobody should reinstall them. Jim Beam mentions the "strength" of his carbon forks. What he doesn't mention is that he has no way to actually know how much of that strength is used up in a crash. The hospital comment is dangerously misleading. You can put tremendous overloads to the bike parts while doing no damage to your body--and vice versa! All depends on the crash dynamics. One more thing worth mentioning, and that is fatigue. Metals and Composites fatigue completely differently. Interestingly a composite part is easier to check for fatige, provided that you have the engineering baseline data (which for bikes you do not). Here's how it works: In metals, fatigue is an insidious problem of crack propagation through an otherwise ductile metal, during load cycling which is entirely non-plastic (non-overload). In heavily loaded parts (yet still loaded in the elastic region), no noticable changes in the parts stiffness or deflection occurr until the crack leads to complete failure, or is about to fail completely. (I have personally experienced this on a Raleigh Professional reynolds 531, an Eddie Merckx reynolds 753, an Easton 7005, a Gios deddacai, and countless campagnolo axles). In composites, fatigue will gradually reduce the bending stiffness of the composite part. The amount of fatigue life left can be gaged by the residual bending stiffness. Unfortunately bicycle components do not come with a fatigue life guide and so the nature of composite fatigue cannot be used to advantage. Yet this property is used to advantage for assessing life on helicopter rotor blades and other parts. Finally, you have the nexus of overload and fatigue. Again, the metals are totally different from the composites in this regard. Whereas a ductile metal that is experiencing fatigue crack growth can actually have its life *extended* by periodic overloads, a composite part will have its fatigue life dramatically reduced. This is due to the *mechanism* of fatigue in composites, namely cracking of the resin matrix and/or cracking of fibers in the matrix (depends on the ratio of stiffness of resin versus fiber, elongation to failure of each, orientation and makeup of the fibrous portion, and the ratio of fibers to resin, and the diameters of the fibers.) It turns out that the overload pseudo-plasticity of a composite is the same mechanism as the fatigue mechanism so that if you overload a part, you have literally taken the life out of a part that is subjected to cyclic loading. (In metals, the mechanism of fatigue is not the same as the mechanism of plasticity. It is more complicated to describe but essentially what happens is that imperfections in the metal cause cracks to form, and then the tip of a crack causes the stress to exceed the cleavage strength locally and so the crack grows on each cycle. The thermodynamics of surface energy prevent runaway crack propagation until the average stress passes a threshold). So, even if your composite forks appear to be ok, they may in fact have lost most of their fatigue life due to a crash. This is totally different than in metal forks! |
#7
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Trust Carbon Fork After Wreck?
"bill" wrote in message oups.com... bg wrote: I got hit from the side the other day. Car was going maybe 15mph. Bumper hit my knee and front wheel. Knocked me off the bike. Bent the wheel. No obvious damage to the fork or carbon rear stay and I left it with the LBS to check out. But absent any visible wrinkles how much can one trust carbon stuff esp the fork bars and stem after a shot like that? It's got a carbon steerer. I had a StupidLight seat post break last year unexpectedly (I weigh 140lbs) so I'm kinda leery of trusting the fork. thanks, bill g -- Your question is a good one. You are right to be wondering if there is a different way to handle these things. I like to put it this way: Bicycle frame steel (and other ductile metals such as aluminum but to a lesser extent) gain their toughness through plastic deformation. You can overload a part, plastically deform it, but lose no strength (actually increased the strength). You retain most of the toughness if the plastic deformation was minor. You lose the toughness that was used up in the "strengthening" that went on with the overload. Perhaps most significantly, the rigidity of the part is unaffected. It will have the same resistance to bending (in the elastic range) as before. Fibrous composites have what I call "one time toughness." If you have an overload situation, the end result is a loss of stiffness, and a loss of most of the toughness, even for a relatively low overload. What happens is that you either microckrack the resin matrix, or or crack some fibers, or both. In an extreme overload, you pull fibers out of the matrix, but then you have failure rather than slight overload. A fibrous composite part that has been overloaded in to the pseudoplastic region of stress versus strain will sustain a permanent loss of bending stiffness, while retaining most of its tensile strength and showing no permanent set. However that residual tensile strength comes with very little toughness. What is thoughneess? It is quite simply the amount of energy that a structure can absorb before failure. A hi-modulus part with low plastic deformation to failure will have far less strain engergy absorbed before failure than a high modulus part that experiences significant plastic deformation before failure. Composites show very little plastic deformation to failure--especially carbon fiber composites. They have less toughness pound for pounbd than steel. Typcially the ratio of toughness is on the order of 10:1 This loss of stiffness after damage is a really interesting aspect of composite structures, but one which the LBS is unable to use to advantage in checking a part for damage. It is much easier to check a metal part for plastic deformation. You can measure it. In the composite part, you don't have a permanent set. Rather, you have internal structural changes that would be visible with ultrasonic detection (though not an easy task!), but not neccessarily the naked eye. So, back to your situation. The prudent thing is to discard the parts. I don't mean give away. I mean destroy and replace. Nobody should reinstall them. Jim Beam mentions the "strength" of his carbon forks. What he doesn't mention is that he has no way to actually know how much of that strength is used up in a crash. The hospital comment is dangerously misleading. You can put tremendous overloads to the bike parts while doing no damage to your body--and vice versa! All depends on the crash dynamics. One more thing worth mentioning, and that is fatigue. Metals and Composites fatigue completely differently. Interestingly a composite part is easier to check for fatige, provided that you have the engineering baseline data (which for bikes you do not). Here's how it works: In metals, fatigue is an insidious problem of crack propagation through an otherwise ductile metal, during load cycling which is entirely non-plastic (non-overload). In heavily loaded parts (yet still loaded in the elastic region), no noticable changes in the parts stiffness or deflection occurr until the crack leads to complete failure, or is about to fail completely. (I have personally experienced this on a Raleigh Professional reynolds 531, an Eddie Merckx reynolds 753, an Easton 7005, a Gios deddacai, and countless campagnolo axles). In composites, fatigue will gradually reduce the bending stiffness of the composite part. The amount of fatigue life left can be gaged by the residual bending stiffness. Unfortunately bicycle components do not come with a fatigue life guide and so the nature of composite fatigue cannot be used to advantage. Yet this property is used to advantage for assessing life on helicopter rotor blades and other parts. Finally, you have the nexus of overload and fatigue. Again, the metals are totally different from the composites in this regard. Whereas a ductile metal that is experiencing fatigue crack growth can actually have its life *extended* by periodic overloads, a composite part will have its fatigue life dramatically reduced. This is due to the *mechanism* of fatigue in composites, namely cracking of the resin matrix and/or cracking of fibers in the matrix (depends on the ratio of stiffness of resin versus fiber, elongation to failure of each, orientation and makeup of the fibrous portion, and the ratio of fibers to resin, and the diameters of the fibers.) It turns out that the overload pseudo-plasticity of a composite is the same mechanism as the fatigue mechanism so that if you overload a part, you have literally taken the life out of a part that is subjected to cyclic loading. (In metals, the mechanism of fatigue is not the same as the mechanism of plasticity. It is more complicated to describe but essentially what happens is that imperfections in the metal cause cracks to form, and then the tip of a crack causes the stress to exceed the cleavage strength locally and so the crack grows on each cycle. The thermodynamics of surface energy prevent runaway crack propagation until the average stress passes a threshold). So, even if your composite forks appear to be ok, they may in fact have lost most of their fatigue life due to a crash. This is totally different than in metal forks! VERY well put but expect a barrage of retorts from the anecdotal resident experts. As a manufacturing engineer/consultant with a background in metallurgy and material science, I've been involved with research and manufacturing of products made of reinforced carbon fiber and other types of composites for over 25 years; everything from rocket engine nozzles to golf club shafts to airliner floorboards. Products made of carbon fiber composites are very prone to failure from nicks and scratches. You've done a very good job of pointing out internal failure modes that are not visible from the outside. Invisible internal delamination due to overstressing is a common cause of failure in carbon fiber composite components. These composite materials should be looked at as fiber reinforced plastic resins (as in fiberglass reinforced epoxy which was the original term for fiberglass). The resin encapsulates the fibers and holds them into a solid form. The bond between the resin and the fibers is generally not very strong and it's the encapsulating that gives the product it's strength. On complex forms this requires a lot of engineering expertise to take advantage of the material's strengths. Many cyclists seem to have the opinion that any component made of "carbon" (reinforced carbon fiber composite) is going to be almost fail proof: "It's lighter and stronger than steel" (and it's the latest and greatest). I've been trying to find a web site that I visited a few weeks back that showed comparisons of quality versus poorly constructed carbon fiber composite frames and forks. I think that it may have been on Colnogo's site but they've redesigned it so a lot of information isn't there anymore. Poorly designed carbon fiber composite bicycle components can look stylish but be prone to catastrophic failure at time. Chas. .. |
#8
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Trust Carbon Fork After Wreck?
bg wrote: I got hit from the side the other day. Car was going maybe 15mph. Bumper hit my knee and front wheel. Knocked me off the bike. Bent the wheel. No obvious damage to the fork or carbon rear stay and I left it with the LBS to check out. But absent any visible wrinkles how much can one trust carbon stuff esp the fork bars and stem after a shot like that? It's got a carbon steerer. I had a StupidLight seat post break last year unexpectedly (I weigh 140lbs) so I'm kinda leery of trusting the fork. thanks, bill g -- It depends on how much excitement do you want in your life. If you want certainty and safety, replace it. However, if you want to live your life on the edge, then don't. Do you enjoy the adrenaline rush? Does it turn you on to think that your fork may give up halfway through the ride? will it make you go faster just to finish the ride sooner? This are important questions that you need to ask yourself. As you can see, there is a split between Peter ana Jim. Maybe, you are completely safe, but not knowing will make you feel alive. At least until you get the bill from the orthodontist. Andres |
#9
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Trust Carbon Fork After Wreck?
Peter,
Thanks for reply. But even if I do replace all the front stuff what about the carbon stay? It was pretty much getting thunked by the bumper about the same time my knee was. My wife says this is one of those blink moments. Get a new bike. Is it worth the risk even absent any obvious trauma. bill g -- |
#10
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Trust Carbon Fork After Wreck?
* * Chas wrote: "bill" wrote in message oups.com... bg wrote: I got hit from the side the other day. Car was going maybe 15mph. Bumper hit my knee and front wheel. Knocked me off the bike. Bent the wheel. No obvious damage to the fork or carbon rear stay and I left it with the LBS to check out. But absent any visible wrinkles how much can one trust carbon stuff esp the fork bars and stem after a shot like that? It's got a carbon steerer. I had a StupidLight seat post break last year unexpectedly (I weigh 140lbs) so I'm kinda leery of trusting the fork. thanks, bill g -- Your question is a good one. You are right to be wondering if there is a different way to handle these things. I like to put it this way: Bicycle frame steel (and other ductile metals such as aluminum but to a lesser extent) gain their toughness through plastic deformation. You can overload a part, plastically deform it, but lose no strength (actually increased the strength). You retain most of the toughness if the plastic deformation was minor. You lose the toughness that was used up in the "strengthening" that went on with the overload. Perhaps most significantly, the rigidity of the part is unaffected. It will have the same resistance to bending (in the elastic range) as before. Fibrous composites have what I call "one time toughness." If you have an overload situation, the end result is a loss of stiffness, and a loss of most of the toughness, even for a relatively low overload. What happens is that you either microckrack the resin matrix, or or crack some fibers, or both. In an extreme overload, you pull fibers out of the matrix, but then you have failure rather than slight overload. A fibrous composite part that has been overloaded in to the pseudoplastic region of stress versus strain will sustain a permanent loss of bending stiffness, while retaining most of its tensile strength and showing no permanent set. However that residual tensile strength comes with very little toughness. What is thoughneess? It is quite simply the amount of energy that a structure can absorb before failure. A hi-modulus part with low plastic deformation to failure will have far less strain engergy absorbed before failure than a high modulus part that experiences significant plastic deformation before failure. Composites show very little plastic deformation to failure--especially carbon fiber composites. They have less toughness pound for pounbd than steel. Typcially the ratio of toughness is on the order of 10:1 This loss of stiffness after damage is a really interesting aspect of composite structures, but one which the LBS is unable to use to advantage in checking a part for damage. It is much easier to check a metal part for plastic deformation. You can measure it. In the composite part, you don't have a permanent set. Rather, you have internal structural changes that would be visible with ultrasonic detection (though not an easy task!), but not neccessarily the naked eye. So, back to your situation. The prudent thing is to discard the parts. I don't mean give away. I mean destroy and replace. Nobody should reinstall them. Jim Beam mentions the "strength" of his carbon forks. What he doesn't mention is that he has no way to actually know how much of that strength is used up in a crash. The hospital comment is dangerously misleading. You can put tremendous overloads to the bike parts while doing no damage to your body--and vice versa! All depends on the crash dynamics. One more thing worth mentioning, and that is fatigue. Metals and Composites fatigue completely differently. Interestingly a composite part is easier to check for fatige, provided that you have the engineering baseline data (which for bikes you do not). Here's how it works: In metals, fatigue is an insidious problem of crack propagation through an otherwise ductile metal, during load cycling which is entirely non-plastic (non-overload). In heavily loaded parts (yet still loaded in the elastic region), no noticable changes in the parts stiffness or deflection occurr until the crack leads to complete failure, or is about to fail completely. (I have personally experienced this on a Raleigh Professional reynolds 531, an Eddie Merckx reynolds 753, an Easton 7005, a Gios deddacai, and countless campagnolo axles). In composites, fatigue will gradually reduce the bending stiffness of the composite part. The amount of fatigue life left can be gaged by the residual bending stiffness. Unfortunately bicycle components do not come with a fatigue life guide and so the nature of composite fatigue cannot be used to advantage. Yet this property is used to advantage for assessing life on helicopter rotor blades and other parts. Finally, you have the nexus of overload and fatigue. Again, the metals are totally different from the composites in this regard. Whereas a ductile metal that is experiencing fatigue crack growth can actually have its life *extended* by periodic overloads, a composite part will have its fatigue life dramatically reduced. This is due to the *mechanism* of fatigue in composites, namely cracking of the resin matrix and/or cracking of fibers in the matrix (depends on the ratio of stiffness of resin versus fiber, elongation to failure of each, orientation and makeup of the fibrous portion, and the ratio of fibers to resin, and the diameters of the fibers.) It turns out that the overload pseudo-plasticity of a composite is the same mechanism as the fatigue mechanism so that if you overload a part, you have literally taken the life out of a part that is subjected to cyclic loading. (In metals, the mechanism of fatigue is not the same as the mechanism of plasticity. It is more complicated to describe but essentially what happens is that imperfections in the metal cause cracks to form, and then the tip of a crack causes the stress to exceed the cleavage strength locally and so the crack grows on each cycle. The thermodynamics of surface energy prevent runaway crack propagation until the average stress passes a threshold). So, even if your composite forks appear to be ok, they may in fact have lost most of their fatigue life due to a crash. This is totally different than in metal forks! VERY well put but expect a barrage of retorts from the anecdotal resident experts. As a manufacturing engineer/consultant with a background in metallurgy and material science, I've been involved with research and manufacturing of products made of reinforced carbon fiber and other types of composites for over 25 years; everything from rocket engine nozzles to golf club shafts to airliner floorboards. Products made of carbon fiber composites are very prone to failure from nicks and scratches. Which really makes me wonder about the wisdom of CFRP crankarms, one of the most frequently nicked and scratched parts on a bicycle. As in some other things, this is not an issue to a high level, sponsored pro looking for every advantage. Nicked? Scratched? Here's a new one, Francois. But for a recreational rider? You've done a very good job of pointing out internal failure modes that are not visible from the outside. Invisible internal delamination due to overstressing is a common cause of failure in carbon fiber composite components. These composite materials should be looked at as fiber reinforced plastic resins (as in fiberglass reinforced epoxy which was the original term for fiberglass). The resin encapsulates the fibers and holds them into a solid form. The bond between the resin and the fibers is generally not very strong and it's the encapsulating that gives the product it's strength. On complex forms this requires a lot of engineering expertise to take advantage of the material's strengths. Many cyclists seem to have the opinion that any component made of "carbon" (reinforced carbon fiber composite) is going to be almost fail proof: "It's lighter and stronger than steel" (and it's the latest and greatest). I've been trying to find a web site that I visited a few weeks back that showed comparisons of quality versus poorly constructed carbon fiber composite frames and forks. I think that it may have been on Colnogo's site but they've redesigned it so a lot of information isn't there anymore. Poorly designed carbon fiber composite bicycle components can look stylish but be prone to catastrophic failure at time. Chas. . |
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