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#51
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Help Me Choose A Headlight
SMS wrote:
Prisoner at War wrote: I'm wondering whether to get the Light & Motion ARC Li-Ion Ultra HID or the NiteRider Moab HID/LED. They're both the same price but the NiteRider burns over 50% longer at the same highest level of brightness (if I'm reading the specs right -- in which case I'm surprised Light & Motion haven't lowered their price at all; also, I'm not sure what it means for the NiteRider to be "HID/LED" [according to performancebike.com, anyway]).... I've updated the HID/LED section of the Bicycle Lighting website "http://bicyclelighting.com". Note that this site was primarily a site for building homebrew lighting systems, not a site to evaluate every commercial lighting system on the market. As such, I've now included the TrailTech lamps because they are usable in a homebrew system, but not included the insanely over-priced commercial HID systems. I've also added the few good Luxeon LED lamps, since several readers requested this information, though the good LED lamps are nearly as expensive as the TrailTech HID lamps. The direct link to the HID/LED section is "http://nordicgroup.us/s78/hidled.html" Again, this site is primarily to help people construct their own high-performance lighting systems. It's been expanded over the years to include information on other options, including a section that explains the pros and cons of dynamo systems at "http://nordicgroup.us/s78/dynamo.html". The TrailTech site indicates the MR11 light outputs 500lm at a power draw of 13W. That's around the 40 lm/W of mature power LEDs like the Luxeon. Newer LEDs, like the Cree, are capable of 80lm/W. Of course that's at the 1W level, but it's still a lot of light for cycling. LED systems have had difficulties scaling up, whereas HID systems have difficulty scaling down. LEDs have finally reached the point in power where they are beginning to qualify for huge application markets in general & automotive lighting. Prices are declining fast. A 1W Cree is currently at $7.50 in single units, Luxeons at half that. A lot of people find the ~30-40lm of a generator powered incandescent sufficient to ride by. Having used a wide variety of lights, I can't imagine anyone really needing more than 200lm. The best of the latest LED devices can almost do that today. LEDs have a number of inherent advantages over both arc and incandescent bulbs: more rugged/longer lived; ability to modulate power over a wide range with no color shift or efficiency loss; simple power supplies; no warm up; very small emitter/optics size; cheap to make in volume. I don't think we'll ever see a HID light in the cycling "sweet spot" of ~200lm/2W. 2 years ago, I bought a NiteHawk 1W Luxeon light, MSRP $60. This year I bought I 1W Luxeon head-mounted light for $15. I'm told they're available for half that if you shop around. Prices have declined 4-5x for the devices in that period. It's only a matter of time before LEDs dominate all forms of lighting, including cycling. |
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#52
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Help Me Choose A Headlight
Prisoner at War wrote:
I'm wondering whether to get the Light & Motion ARC Li-Ion Ultra HID or the NiteRider Moab HID/LED. They're both the same price but the NiteRider burns over 50% longer at the same highest level of brightness (if I'm reading the specs right -- in which case I'm surprised Light & Motion haven't lowered their price at all; also, I'm not sure what it means for the NiteRider to be "HID/LED" [according to performancebike.com, anyway]).... While all the digression is interesting, I think your basic question is still "which HID system should I buy?" For a complete system I'd buy the TrailTech Single 13 W HID Helmet Light with 14.8V 5.2Ah regulated Li-Ion Flat Pack + Smart Charger for $235, with the 12 degree lamp. See "http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3271" This is a very good deal, in fact it's less than the less capable, and less efficient Li-Ion Luxeon LED systems, and less than a Dymotec Dynamo plus an Inolight inoled LED light. Steve http://bicyclelighting.com |
#53
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Help Me Choose A Headlight
I own one of the 30W Trail-Tech lights and several Topeak Moonshine
HIDs. The illumination from all of them is great. The 30W is brighter than most of the mopeds I see on the road. However, durability is not a quality of any of these lights. Within a year of use, they start to have problems starting up or staying on. Also, the Trail-Tech light- switch-battery set is very poorly manufactured. The wiring where the switch line splices in to the battery-light line is just held together with some heat shrink tubing (the Topeak has a plastic box over this area to reduce flexing this weak joint). I've had to re-solder that section. I do use my light every weekday, in the rain and over poorly maintained asphalt trails, so I might be asking to much from them, but as soon as LEDs reach the level of the 13W HIDs, I'll go back to LEDs. |
#54
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Help Me Choose A Headlight
tiborg wrote:
I own one of the 30W Trail-Tech lights and several Topeak Moonshine HIDs. The illumination from all of them is great. The 30W is brighter than most of the mopeds I see on the road. However, durability is not a quality of any of these lights. Within a year of use, they start to have problems starting up or staying on. Also, the Trail-Tech light- switch-battery set is very poorly manufactured. The wiring where the switch line splices in to the battery-light line is just held together with some heat shrink tubing (the Topeak has a plastic box over this area to reduce flexing this weak joint). I've had to re-solder that section. I do use my light every weekday, in the rain and over poorly maintained asphalt trails, so I might be asking to much from them, but as soon as LEDs reach the level of the 13W HIDs, I'll go back to LEDs. Most of the bicycle lighting systems require occasional wire maintenance. On systems I make for my own use I use very good connectors and switches designed for industrial use, but the commercial systems never seem to want to go to the expense of higher quality connectors. I like that there is no switch on the TrailTech lamp, as the integrated switches are a big point of failure and should be avoided. |
#55
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Help Me Choose A Headlight
tiborg wrote:
I own one of the 30W Trail-Tech lights and several Topeak Moonshine HIDs. The illumination from all of them is great. The 30W is brighter than most of the mopeds I see on the road. However, durability is not a quality of any of these lights. Within a year of use, they start to have problems starting up or staying on. Also, the Trail-Tech light- switch-battery set is very poorly manufactured. The wiring where the switch line splices in to the battery-light line is just held together with some heat shrink tubing (the Topeak has a plastic box over this area to reduce flexing this weak joint). I've had to re-solder that section. I do use my light every weekday, in the rain and over poorly maintained asphalt trails, so I might be asking to much from them, but as soon as LEDs reach the level of the 13W HIDs, I'll go back to LEDs. This will probably occur with a multiple LED Luxeon lamp, but the beam won't be as good because it's so difficult to collimate the light from several sources into one beam. The advantage of HID is that heat is easier to dissipate because it's transfered over a wide area, through the glass. On the LED, it's the very small semiconductor junction that heats up, and it's very difficult to transfer so much heat through such a small surface area. Lumileds has extensive information on designing heat sinks. Luxeon is working on is designing LEDs that can have higher junction temperatures. Some high intensity applications are adding active cooling fans, just like there are fans to cool light sources in devices such as projectors. There is one LED light, the Inolight, where the LED junction was so hot that it was causing components on the printed circuit board to unsolder. |
#56
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Help Me Choose A Headlight
On May 3, 12:47 pm, wrote:
If you do go with some mega-bright, no-optics solution, please be courteous with it. Some of us have encountered cyclists with those systems approaching us on bike trails, and have experienced being blinded. Some users have bragged about car drivers flashing their brights, because of the glare from those systems. We don't need to get into lumen wars with other cyclists, or with car drivers. For road riding, you need enough light on the road to see the road, including potholes or trash. And you need enough light going above the road to make you as conspicuous as you are in the daytime, no more. Those purposes require relatively little light output. You don't need any more - and in particular, burning out people's retinas with excessive above-the-road light is, at best, pretty rude. At worst, it's dangerous for them and for you. That's one reason automotive headlights, motorcycle headlights, and well-designed bike headlights have a "cut-off" plane. Below that plane, light going to the road is bright. Above that plane, light going into others' eyes is much dimmer. If your lights don't have optics that produce that sort of beam pattern, please point them low enough to not blind other users. Don't become the lumen equivalent of a Hummer driver, putting your (supposed) safety and macho power above the safety of everyone else. - Frank Krygowski Yes, that's a very important point you make. While I was certainly relishing giving them motorists a bit of their own medicine with an HID light, I also don't want my fellow cyclists to be blinded! I'm not sure how they could be, though, seeing how they'd be at the same eye-level as me...except for recumbent cyclists -- but then I really plan on using the HID on my 'bent, so it'd be mounted lower than most cyclists' vantage points, and even that of many cars, for that matter. Not sure how I'd prevent their being blinded, anyway: I couldn't predict it, could I? But I'm sure the two HIDs I'm considering have some kind of optics which should mitigate such circumstances. They better, anyway, for $600!!! So which one do you recommend? Looks like the NiteRider is a winner. Funny how I can't really find reviews of these guys online. I've seen only one "real" (i.e., useful, with a good photo) review of the Light & Motion product, but none yet for the NiteRider (which is newer, though). Anyway, a good reminder, your post. I almost never feel the need for a light, but all club rides require them (except the anarchist Time's Up! rides -- hooray!), and, in keeping with my nature, if I get something I'd like to get the best. ^_^ (Yes yes I know "the best" is a semantically ambiguous term....) (Yes yes, I know, " |
#57
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Help Me Choose A Headlight
Prisoner at War wrote:
Yes, that's a very important point you make. While I was certainly relishing giving them motorists a bit of their own medicine with an HID light, I also don't want my fellow cyclists to be blinded! I'm not sure how they could be, though, seeing how they'd be at the same eye-level as me...except for recumbent cyclists -- but then I really plan on using the HID on my 'bent, so it'd be mounted lower than most cyclists' vantage points, and even that of many cars, for that matter. Mounting on the front of a Streetmachine won't actually be that much lower than a fork-crown mounting on a "normal" bike. More important is which way it's pointing and how directed the optics are. Not sure how I'd prevent their being blinded, anyway: I couldn't predict it, could I? But I'm sure the two HIDs I'm considering have some kind of optics which should mitigate such circumstances. They better, anyway, for $600!!! If it's not bright because of dissipating optics or because it just isn't very powerful, it's still not very bright, and if your goal is to be very bright... You can't have it both ways! Cars have separate dip beams for a very good reason, because illuminating the road as much as possible and illuminating the road to an adequate degree while not blinding oncoming folk are not fully compatible goals. With this in mind, it'd be worth getting getting a set with a switchable output. My recharageable set has twin heads, one 2.4W and one 10W, and you can easily switch between either or both. Something like that, and don't forget you are *not* safer if the truck coming towards you is driven by someone who can't see properly thanks to you wiping out his night vision... Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#58
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Help Me Choose A Headlight
On May 6, 11:01 am, Prisoner at War wrote:
On May 3, 12:47 pm, wrote: If you do go with some mega-bright, no-optics solution, please be courteous with it. Some of us have encountered cyclists with those systems approaching us on bike trails, and have experienced being blinded. Some users have bragged about car drivers flashing their brights, because of the glare from those systems. ... Yes, that's a very important point you make. While I was certainly relishing giving them motorists a bit of their own medicine with an HID light, I also don't want my fellow cyclists to be blinded! I'm not sure how they could be, though, seeing how they'd be at the same eye-level as me... It absolutely can and will happen. I've been on the receiving end, on a short cut-through bike trail in our town. I remember desperately trying to shield my eyes and close one eye to retain a _little_ night vision. It was ugly. Not sure how I'd prevent their being blinded, anyway: I couldn't predict it, could I? But I'm sure the two HIDs I'm considering have some kind of optics which should mitigate such circumstances. They better, anyway, for $600!!! Wrong. They won't. Or more precisely, I'll be amazed if the beams are anything other than circular - that is, sending exactly as much light up as down. For some reason, manufacturers of $600 HID lights (or $200 MR-16 lights) can't replicate the optics of a $20 Cateye light from 1990. The only way to NOT blind an oncoming cyclist with a no-optics high power light, is to point the light down in front of you. But then you'll find you've got a super-bright patch of road close in front of you, it's reflecting back and ruining your night vision, and you can't see very well at all. This is why I don't like the crude-optics mega- lights. Before you shell out the cost of a bicycle on an excessively bright light, try this: Borrow an ordinary, good quality bike headlight. Try a Cateye Halogen Micro-II, for example, if you can find one (the pre-LED model) or any decent generator light. Put it on your bike, have a friend ride your bike toward you, and see how conspicuous 2.4 watts of halogen light really is. I've done this with dozens of other cyclists, in night lighting workshops. I've never had any of them say "That's too dim to be safe." If you want to up the lumen output, that, fine. But be responsible, and don't think you've got to look like a supernova to be noticed. So which one do you recommend? I recommend a generator light. If you don't like to generate your own power, I recommend a generator lamp powered by your own rechargeable battery pack. If you want twice as much light, either put in a more powerful bulb into the lamp assembly, or mount two of them. - Frank Krygowski |
#59
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Help Me Choose A Headlight
Prisoner at War wrote:
Anyway, a good reminder, your post. I almost never feel the need for a light, but all club rides require them (except the anarchist Time's Up! rides -- hooray!), and, in keeping with my nature, if I get something I'd like to get the best. ^_^ I'm glad to see more night rides by clubs. Some clubs are very explicit as to the brightness of lights that are required, but any available HID light should be sufficient, usually the minimum is a 6 watt quartz-halogen headlight and some sort of an LED or xenon tail light. With the HID and MR series of lights, you don't really have to worry about blinding other cyclists, as the optics on these are very precise. On some of the sealed beams the light is more of a flood pattern, and I wouldn't use the 25 watt version in traffic as it could be annoying. |
#60
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Help Me Choose A Headlight
On May 7, 12:01 am, SMS wrote:
Prisoner at War wrote: Anyway, a good reminder, your post. I almost never feel the need for a light, but all club rides require them (except the anarchist Time's Up! rides -- hooray!), and, in keeping with my nature, if I get something I'd like to get the best. ^_^ I'm glad to see more night rides by clubs. Some clubs are very explicit as to the brightness of lights that are required, Oh? How do they measure brightness? but any available HID light should be sufficient, usually the minimum is a 6 watt quartz-halogen headlight... "Usually"? I'd like to see some citation for that. With the HID and MR series of lights, you don't really have to worry about blinding other cyclists, as the optics on these are very precise. From what I've seen, the optics on HID and MR lights are very precise only in that they don't throw light out the back! They do throw a fog of light out the front, _roughly_ in an eight degree (fairly typical spot) or 30+ degree (fairly typical flood) radially symmetrical pattern. IOW they throw as much light up as down. Compare this with the optics on, say, my car headlamps, my motorcycle headlamps, or my bicycle generator headlamps. All these direct less light upward, since more light is needed downward onto the road. The cutoff plane is easily apparent. They use the light output efficiently. Remember, light going upward toward other road users travels directly from your lamp to their eye. It doesn't need to be as powerful as what goes down. The downward light must hit the road, where some gets absorbed and some gets scattered. Only a small percentage bounces back to your eye to show you the road. You need bright light down, much less light up. Radially symmetrical optics don't do that. - Frank Krygowski |
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