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Latex on tubular base tape



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 1st 05, 08:39 PM
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

Without getting into a discussion on merits/disadvantages to tubular
tires, can anyone explain why there is a layer of latex on the base
tape of some tubular tires?

Thanks.

Richard

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  #2  
Old August 1st 05, 08:58 PM
Jay Beattie
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

Latex is used as an adhesive to hold the base tape to the tire.
It is not temperature sensitive like ordinary sew-up glue, so the
tape will not come off when the wheel gets hot. The tire may
come off the rim, though. -- Jay Beattie.


wrote in message
oups.com...
Without getting into a discussion on merits/disadvantages to

tubular
tires, can anyone explain why there is a layer of latex on the

base
tape of some tubular tires?

Thanks.

Richard



  #3  
Old August 1st 05, 09:03 PM
Tom Reingold
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Default Latex on tubular base tape


Who still rides tubular tires, and why?

I stopped in a bike shop yesterday. I asked the owner what they use in
track racing. I trust he knows. I asked specifically about tires and
pedals. He said they use special clipless pedals and clincher tires.

If clincher tires are good enough for track racers, I can't think of a
practical purpose for tubulars any more.

Tom
  #4  
Old August 1st 05, 09:30 PM
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:03:37 -0400, Tom Reingold
wrote:


Who still rides tubular tires, and why?

I stopped in a bike shop yesterday. I asked the owner what they use in
track racing. I trust he knows. I asked specifically about tires and
pedals. He said they use special clipless pedals and clincher tires.

If clincher tires are good enough for track racers, I can't think of a
practical purpose for tubulars any more.

Tom


Dear Tom,

Most of the Tour de France is ridden on tubulars.

Because it's glued to the rim, you can continue riding a
flat tubular while waiting for the support car and mechanic
to rush up and slap in a new wheel. (A flat clincher is much
harder to ride.)

You also expect to have fewer impact flats, even at lower
and more comfortable pressures, because the tublar tire and
rim don't tend to pinch things like a clincher rim. Pros
like the idea of a more comfortable, more reliable tire, and
they have someone else to take care of gluing up a dozen
spare wheels.

People also talk about handling, weight, rolling resistance,
and other somewhat dubious matters, but fewer flats, more
comfortable pressures, and the ability to keep going when
flats do occur seem to be the practical reasons.

Of course, outside such races, tubulars are popular for
reasons of tradition, fashion, and the love of fooling with
sticky, tricky stuff.

Carl Fogel
  #5  
Old August 1st 05, 09:31 PM
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

Richard Ling writes:

Without getting into a discussion on merits/disadvantages to
tubular tires, can anyone explain why there is a layer of latex on
the base tape of some tubular tires?


Pressure sensitive rim glues (what most of them are) have a tacky
stiff surface that, without a smooth surface on the tire, would make
marginal contact and possibly have a poor hold between tire and rim.
Bare cloth base tapes are needed for tires using track glue (aka
shellac) which does not make a good interface to a rubberized base
tape, the glue being hard and the tape elastic.

For a secure hold, tubulars with bare cloth base tapes must be
prepared by spreading rim glue on both rim and base tape to insure a
continuous contact interface. I haven't met anyone who uses track
glue in years so I don't know why bare base tape tubulars are still
made, other than to reduce manufacturing cost.

Jobst Brandt
  #6  
Old August 1st 05, 10:17 PM
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

Carl Fogel writes:

Who still rides tubular tires, and why?


I stopped in a bike shop yesterday. I asked the owner what they use
in track racing. I trust he knows. I asked specifically about tires
and pedals. He said they use special clipless pedals and clincher
tires.


If clincher tires are good enough for track racers, I can't think
of a practical purpose for tubulars any more.


Most of the Tour de France is ridden on tubulars.


This is often claimed but I haven't seen evidence of that among the
professional racers in similar events that I had the opportunity to
inspect. I have not seen TdF bicycles at close enough range to
determine what sort of tires they had.

Because it's glued to the rim, you can continue riding a flat
tubular while waiting for the support car and mechanic to rush up
and slap in a new wheel. (A flat clincher is much harder to ride.)


I don't believe you are speaking from experience. I have ridden many
miles on both flat tubulars and clinchers, on pavement and dirt roads,
and found there to be no significant difference. I believe this story
is propagated from hearsay.

You also expect to have fewer impact flats, even at lower and more
comfortable pressures, because the tubular tire and rim don't tend
to pinch things like a clincher rim. Pros like the idea of a more
comfortable, more reliable tire, and they have someone else to take
care of gluing up a dozen spare wheels.


The lower pinch flat rate that some tubular tires have is achieved by
the use of thin latex tubes, thin latex tubes having many times the
stretch limit before perforation than butyl tubes. So if you were to
hammer on a tube inside a tire casing lying on a smooth surface, it
would take several times the force to perforate the latex tube. It
has nothing to do with the rim; the rim never contacting the tube that
lies inside the tire casing.

The term "snake bite" flat originated at my Wednesday tubular repair
sessions in the1960's and -70's because the holes were so small, the
second on often invisible without inflation that pinch flats were
scrutinized for the second "snake bite" hole... before patching and
sewing the tire casing only to fins a slower leak at the same
location.

People also talk about handling, weight, rolling resistance, and
other somewhat dubious matters, but fewer flats, more comfortable
pressures, and the ability to keep going when flats do occur seem to
be the practical reasons.


This sounds much like the leg shaving excuse where riders claim they
do it for crashing to prevent subsequent hair entrapment in their
precious bodily fluids.

Of course, outside such races, tubulars are popular for reasons of
tradition, fashion, and the love of fooling with sticky, tricky
stuff.


That can be reduced to "me-too", the pros do it.

Jobst Brandt
  #7  
Old August 1st 05, 11:41 PM
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:03:37 -0400, Tom Reingold
wrote:


Who still rides tubular tires,


I do sometimes.
and why?


Lighter rims. Probably more resistance to pinch flats.


If clincher tires are good enough for track racers, I can't think of a
practical purpose for tubulars any more.


Probably resistance to pinch flats. Not an issue on the track.

JT

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  #8  
Old August 2nd 05, 12:18 AM
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

wrote:
Carl Fogel writes:


Most of the Tour de France is ridden on tubulars.


This is often claimed but I haven't seen evidence of that among the
professional racers in similar events that I had the opportunity to
inspect. I have not seen TdF bicycles at close enough range to
determine what sort of tires they had.


The last seven Tours de France were won on tubular tires, and the guy
who won never suffered a flat tire during the race.

Because it's glued to the rim, you can continue riding a flat
tubular while waiting for the support car and mechanic to rush up
and slap in a new wheel. (A flat clincher is much harder to ride.)


I don't believe you are speaking from experience. I have ridden many
miles on both flat tubulars and clinchers, on pavement and dirt roads,
and found there to be no significant difference. I believe this story
is propagated from hearsay.


In my experience, a deflated, beaded tire is more likely to separate
from the rim that one which is cemented on.

You also expect to have fewer impact flats, even at lower and more
comfortable pressures, because the tubular tire and rim don't tend
to pinch things like a clincher rim. Pros like the idea of a more
comfortable, more reliable tire, and they have someone else to take
care of gluing up a dozen spare wheels.


The lower pinch flat rate that some tubular tires have is achieved by
the use of thin latex tubes, thin latex tubes having many times the
stretch limit before perforation than butyl tubes. So if you were to
hammer on a tube inside a tire casing lying on a smooth surface, it
would take several times the force to perforate the latex tube. It
has nothing to do with the rim; the rim never contacting the tube that
lies inside the tire casing.


I have been riding tubulars exclusively for over a decade, and I have
never suffered a pinch flat, even at pressures as low as 90 psi. Prior
to that, while riding clinchers, pinch flats were a common occurence,
even at higher inflation pressures. And latex inner tubes, the few
times that I was foolish enough to buy them, were the worst. They
wouldn't just puncture, they would rip apart.

People also talk about handling, weight, rolling resistance, and
other somewhat dubious matters, but fewer flats, more comfortable
pressures, and the ability to keep going when flats do occur seem to
be the practical reasons.


This sounds much like the leg shaving excuse where riders claim they
do it for crashing to prevent subsequent hair entrapment in their
precious bodily fluids.


Are you disputing that, too? There is little doubt that it is easier to
deal with cleaning and bandaging a clean-shaven wound, than one that is
mattted with thick hair. Having smooth legs also facilitates massage.

  #9  
Old August 2nd 05, 12:22 AM
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

wrote:
Carl Fogel writes:

Who still rides tubular tires, and why?


I stopped in a bike shop yesterday. I asked the owner what they use
in track racing. I trust he knows. I asked specifically about tires
and pedals. He said they use special clipless pedals and clincher
tires.


If clincher tires are good enough for track racers, I can't think
of a practical purpose for tubulars any more.


Responding to the person who stated this. Clinchers may be used at the
local velodrome by some. But at the upper levels, tubulars are used on
the track. If you look at the wheels the pros use, Mavic disks and
Campagnolo Ghibli disks, Campagnolo Pista wheels, Mavic 5 spoke wheels,
these ONLY come in tubular. No clincher verison of these track wheels
exist in the world. There is no question about whether these riders
are using tubular or clincher.

Do a Google search for the Mavic and Campagnolo websites and you can
determine for yourself that the disk wheels and track wheels are only
available in tubular.

Go over to the www. cyclingnews.com website for pictures of various
professional track events around the world and look at the wheels being
used.



Most of the Tour de France is ridden on tubulars.


This is often claimed but I haven't seen evidence of that among the
professional racers in similar events that I had the opportunity to
inspect. I have not seen TdF bicycles at close enough range to
determine what sort of tires they had.


www.cyclingnews.com website has pictures of bikes used in the Tour de
France. And other professional races. I guess one could always claim
the bikes in the pictures are not really the ones being ridden during
the race itself and the tubular wheels shown in the picture are changed
out for the superior clinchers before the race.

In many of the Tour and other race pictures you see riders using
Campagnolo Bora wheels, Lightweight wheels, ADA wheels, etc. These are
all carbon wheels ONLY available in tubular. There is no clincher
version of these wheels. How can the racers in the Tour pictures not
be riding tubulars?


Because it's glued to the rim, you can continue riding a flat
tubular while waiting for the support car and mechanic to rush up
and slap in a new wheel. (A flat clincher is much harder to ride.)


I don't believe you are speaking from experience. I have ridden many
miles on both flat tubulars and clinchers, on pavement and dirt roads,
and found there to be no significant difference. I believe this story
is propagated from hearsay.

You also expect to have fewer impact flats, even at lower and more
comfortable pressures, because the tubular tire and rim don't tend
to pinch things like a clincher rim. Pros like the idea of a more
comfortable, more reliable tire, and they have someone else to take
care of gluing up a dozen spare wheels.


The lower pinch flat rate that some tubular tires have is achieved by
the use of thin latex tubes, thin latex tubes having many times the
stretch limit before perforation than butyl tubes. So if you were to
hammer on a tube inside a tire casing lying on a smooth surface, it
would take several times the force to perforate the latex tube. It
has nothing to do with the rim; the rim never contacting the tube that
lies inside the tire casing.



My Continental Sprinter tubulars have butyl tubes. I suffered very few
if any pinch flats with them. I have pinch flatted clinchers with
butyl tubes. The tubulars were ridden at lower pressure too.



The term "snake bite" flat originated at my Wednesday tubular repair
sessions in the1960's and -70's because the holes were so small, the
second on often invisible without inflation that pinch flats were
scrutinized for the second "snake bite" hole... before patching and
sewing the tire casing only to fins a slower leak at the same
location.

People also talk about handling, weight, rolling resistance, and
other somewhat dubious matters, but fewer flats, more comfortable
pressures, and the ability to keep going when flats do occur seem to
be the practical reasons.


This sounds much like the leg shaving excuse where riders claim they
do it for crashing to prevent subsequent hair entrapment in their
precious bodily fluids.


No personal experience, but I have heard getting a massage on smooth
hairless skin is preferable to hairy skin. I believe professional
racers get massages quite frequently.



Of course, outside such races, tubulars are popular for reasons of
tradition, fashion, and the love of fooling with sticky, tricky
stuff.


That can be reduced to "me-too", the pros do it.

Jobst Brandt


  #10  
Old August 2nd 05, 12:48 AM
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

Mike Krueger40 writes:

Most of the Tour de France is ridden on tubulars.


This is often claimed but I haven't seen evidence of that among the
professional racers in similar events that I had the opportunity to
inspect. I have not seen TdF bicycles at close enough range to
determine what sort of tires they had.


The last seven Tours de France were won on tubular tires, and the
guy who won never suffered a flat tire during the race.


So what? On most of my trips in the Alps that cover about the same
distance and more climbing than the TdF, I never pump my clincher
tires for the distance. What does that prove other than that the
tubes do not leak down as fast as the Clement Tubulars with latex
tubes that I used to ride on these tours, pumping them up daily.

http://tinyurl.com/adls

Because it's glued to the rim, you can continue riding a flat
tubular while waiting for the support car and mechanic to rush up
and slap in a new wheel. (A flat clincher is much harder to ride.)


I don't believe you are speaking from experience. I have ridden
many miles on both flat tubulars and clinchers, on pavement and
dirt roads, and found there to be no significant difference. I
believe this story is propagated from hearsay.


In my experience, a deflated, beaded tire is more likely to separate
from the rim that one which is cemented on.


I take it you mean clincher in contrast to tubular tire. So you used
less appropriate tires. Mine once stayed on for more than 10 miles of
riding flat with a smashed rim. However,riding with a flat tubular
occurred more often because we were often ran out of spares and had to
ride the flat, ruining the rim.

http://tinyurl.com/c543

You also expect to have fewer impact flats, even at lower and more
comfortable pressures, because the tubular tire and rim don't tend
to pinch things like a clincher rim. Pros like the idea of a more
comfortable, more reliable tire, and they have someone else to
take care of gluing up a dozen spare wheels.


The lower pinch flat rate that some tubular tires have is achieved
by the use of thin latex tubes, thin latex tubes having many times
the stretch limit before perforation than butyl tubes. So if you
were to hammer on a tube inside a tire casing lying on a smooth
surface, it would take several times the force to perforate the
latex tube. It has nothing to do with the rim; the rim never
contacting the tube that lies inside the tire casing.


I have been riding tubulars exclusively for over a decade, and I
have never suffered a pinch flat, even at pressures as low as 90
psi. Prior to that, while riding clinchers, pinch flats were a
common occurrence, even at higher inflation pressures. And latex
inner tubes, the few times that I was foolish enough to buy them,
were the worst. They wouldn't just puncture, they would rip apart.


I guess you don't get on rough roads or off pavement. Either that or
you don't weigh as much as the average rider.

People also talk about handling, weight, rolling resistance, and
other somewhat dubious matters, but fewer flats, more comfortable
pressures, and the ability to keep going when flats do occur seem
to be the practical reasons.


This sounds much like the leg shaving excuse where riders claim
they do it for crashing to prevent subsequent hair entrapment in
their precious bodily fluids.


Are you disputing that, too? There is little doubt that it is easier to
deal with cleaning and bandaging a clean-shaven wound, than one that is
matted with thick hair. Having smooth legs also facilitates massage.


http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/shaving.html

Running into these old wive's tales now and then is entertaining.
"Matted with thick hair" do you shave your arms and chest too?

Jobst Brandt
 




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