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#21
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Latex on tubular base tape
wrote:
Russell Seaton1 writes: Who still rides tubular tires, and why? I stopped in a bike shop yesterday. I asked the owner what they use in track racing. I trust he knows. I asked specifically about tires and pedals. He said they use special clipless pedals and clincher tires. If clincher tires are good enough for track racers, I can't think of a practical purpose for tubulars any more. Responding to the person who stated this. Clinchers may be used at the local velodrome by some. But at the upper levels, tubulars are used on the track. If you look at the wheels the pros use, Mavic disks and Campagnolo Ghibli disks, Campagnolo Pista wheels, Mavic 5 spoke wheels, these ONLY come in tubular. No clincher verison of these track wheels exist in the world. There is no question about whether these riders are using tubular or clincher. Do a Google search for the Mavic and Campagnolo web sites and you can determine for yourself that the disk wheels and track wheels are only available in tubular. Go over to the www.cyclingnews.com website for pictures of various professional track events around the world and look at the wheels being used. Most of the Tour de France is ridden on tubulars. This is often claimed but I haven't seen evidence of that among the professional racers in similar events that I had the opportunity to inspect. I have not seen TdF bicycles at close enough range to determine what sort of tires they had. www.cyclingnews.com website has pictures of bikes used in the Tour de France. And other professional races. I guess one could always claim the bikes in the pictures are not really the ones being ridden during the race itself and the tubular wheels shown in the picture are changed out for the superior clinchers before the race. I see you want I should do a web search to prove your point. Please give a URL that clearly shows the tubular tire being used by "most" TdF riders. That tubulars are used is not contested, only that they are used commonly by most riders. http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20.../JD05tdfstg614 http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...tdf05-techfb-2 I have no website showing "most" of the Tour riders using tubulars. The above photos show the bike Lorenzo Bernucci from Fassa Bartolo used to win Stage 6 of the Tour. I don't think this Bernucci is a famous rider. One of many domestiques. So if a domestique is using tubulars on Bora wheels, I would suspect the famous names are also using at least as nice of equipment. In many of the Tour and other race pictures you see riders using Campagnolo Bora wheels, Lightweight wheels, ADA wheels, etc. These are all carbon wheels ONLY available in tubular. There is no clincher version of these wheels. How can the racers in the Tour pictures not be riding tubulars? There is no doubt that there is a weight advantage but for overall reliability on rough roads and steep descents, they present problems. I'm familiar with a few of the problems with tubulars. I have some. I don't claim they are the greatest thing since derailleurs. For rough roads and loaded touring, I use big 35mm heavy duty touring tires. Because it's glued to the rim, you can continue riding a flat tubular while waiting for the support car and mechanic to rush up and slap in a new wheel. (A flat clincher is much harder to ride.) I don't believe you are speaking from experience. I have ridden many miles on both flat tubulars and clinchers, on pavement and dirt roads, and found there to be no significant difference. I believe this story is propagated from hearsay. You also expect to have fewer impact flats, even at lower and more comfortable pressures, because the tubular tire and rim don't tend to pinch things like a clincher rim. Pros like the idea of a more comfortable, more reliable tire, and they have someone else to take care of gluing up a dozen spare wheels. The lower pinch flat rate that some tubular tires have is achieved by the use of thin latex tubes, thin latex tubes having many times the stretch limit before perforation than butyl tubes. So if you were to hammer on a tube inside a tire casing lying on a smooth surface, it would take several times the force to perforate the latex tube. It has nothing to do with the rim; the rim never contacting the tube that lies inside the tire casing. My Continental Sprinter tubulars have butyl tubes. I suffered very few if any pinch flats with them. I have pinch flatted clinchers with butyl tubes. The tubulars were ridden at lower pressure too. Then it's not the tubulars that do that. I went through the transition from latex to butyl tubes in tubulars and the increase in snake bites was strikingly apparent. The term "snake bite" flat originated at my Wednesday tubular repair sessions in the1960's and -70's because the holes were so small, the second on often invisible without inflation that pinch flats were scrutinized for the second "snake bite" hole... before patching and sewing the tire casing only to fins a slower leak at the same location. People also talk about handling, weight, rolling resistance, and other somewhat dubious matters, but fewer flats, more comfortable pressures, and the ability to keep going when flats do occur seem to be the practical reasons. This sounds much like the leg shaving excuse where riders claim they do it for crashing to prevent subsequent hair entrapment in their precious bodily fluids. No personal experience, but I have heard getting a massage on smooth hairless skin is preferable to hairy skin. I believe professional racers get massages quite frequently. In that case, why do you persist in repeating this myth? Of course, outside such races, tubulars are popular for reasons of tradition, fashion, and the love of fooling with sticky, tricky stuff. That can be reduced to "me-too", the pros do it. Jobst Brandt |
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#22
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Most Influential Person in my Cycling career/ was latex
Tom Nakashima wrote:
The other day we were sitting around after a ride and the question came up; who is the most influential person in your cycling career? Of course the Tour de France riders came up, Eddy Merckx, Greg LeMond, Lance Armstrong, but when it was my turn, I said it was Jobst Brandt. So adding the "Subject:", then your most influential person was JB...in latex! {sideshowbobshudder.wav} Bill "STILL a slow morning" S. |
#23
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Most Influential Person in my Cycling career/ was latex
Tom Nakashima wrote: "Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message oups.com... wrote: Lots snipped. Don't wrestle with this pig(the thread Jobst, not you personally) European racing is all about myth and lore and in Jobst's view all should ride on Avocet clinchers(28c), have hairly legs(who cares about massage or what they do in an emergency room with bad scapes(hint-shave ya)),use too big steel frames with downtube shifters. Tubies are for geeks, along with tying and soldering and carbon wheels. Jobst Brandt is the one true source and all the rest of us that actually see this stuff in a bike shop are full of ****e... Doesn't mean we have to use it. Peter, you, Jobst Brandt, and Sheldon Brown have made great contributions to this group. The other day we were sitting around after a ride and the question came up; who is the most influential person in your cycling career? Of course the Tour de France riders came up, Eddy Merckx, Greg LeMond, Lance Armstrong, but when it was my turn, I said it was Jobst Brandt. I came to this newsgroup years ago because I thought I could learn a thing or two about maintaining my bike, this was back when VM computers were in style. When I saw the name Jobst Brandt posting, I knew it was the author of the Bicycle Wheel. I thought gosh, this is a goldmine, giving free advice on how to maintain my bike. I figured Brandt would never lead a cyclist in the wrong direction Nope, as long as it's his direction, based on reality or not. , so I started using some his methods like cleaning the chain, brakepad suggestion, headset and bottom bracket adjustments. Before I knew it, I was maintaining my own bike, and enjoying riding the bike. This newsgroup has changed much since then...more finger pointing, he said she said, which I try to bypass as much as possible. I don't duck into this group as often as I have in the past, but I'm still enjoying cycling, probably more than ever. -tom |
#24
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Most Influential Person in my Cycling career/ was latex
Tom Nakashima wrote: The other day we were sitting around after a ride and the question came up; who is the most inf luential person in your cycling career? Of course the Tour de France riders came up, Eddy Merckx, Greg LeMond, Lance Armstrong, but when it was my turn, I said it was Jobst Brandt. I came to this newsgroup years ago because I thought I cou ld learn a thing or two about maintaining my bike, this was back when VM computers were in style. When I saw the name Jobst Brandt posting, I knew it was the author of the Bicycle Wheel. I thought gosh, this is a goldmine, giving free advice o n how to maintain my bike. I figured Brandt would never lead a cyclist in the wrong direction, so I started using some his methods like cleaning the chain, brakepad suggestion, headset and bottom bracket adjustments. Before I knew it, I was maint aining my own bike, and enjoying riding the bike. A different perspective on the matter. The most influential person in my cycling life was Eugene A. Sloane. I started reading his columns in the back issues of Popular Mechanics when I must have been about 8 years old. From him I learned to build wheels without any lubrication, which could not be tensioned adequately and which went wildly out of true in short order, to assemble all sorts of threaded fasteners without a thought of grease, only light oil on the stem expander bolt threads, to tighten the crankbolts after 100-250 miles and perhaps more often after that, that kayak helmets could get a rider through high speed alpine crashes bouncing along head first on sharp rocks with nary a scratch, to use yellow sunglasses in the rain because they made dark days a whole lot cheerier, that an aluminum-riveted frame gave a soft and comfortable ride and was a viable construction, that low-flange hubs crossed four gave a more comfortable ride than high flange cross three, some more stuff about rotating weight and so on. Fortunately I had BS detection even back then and ignored the crankbolt and helmet and aluminum-riveted frame advice, although the recommendation to use grease on fasteners only came much later. On the other hand I also learned from Sloane that bicycle commuting in the winter in a major northern US city was viable, that excercise was healthful and that the North American lifestyle was not, about the hazards of sewer gratings and bridge expansion joints and parked cars in the dark, about traffic safety problems, that bicycle touring and racing existed, that bicycles didn't have to weigh 45 pounds and much more. I could have done much worse. But I wish Brandt's advice and experiences had been available back then.. |
#25
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Latex on tubular base tape
Dans le message de
ups.com, Qui si parla Campagnolo a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré : wrote: Matt Roberts writes: I don't want to step in the middle of this...I ride clinchers, but I remember the sweet feel of my gl-330's w/ vittora criteriums. I still have the wheels, I just need to rebuild 'em with a new hub....but I digress. I see you want I should do a web search to prove your point. Please give a URL that clearly shows the tubular tire being used by "most" TdF riders. Some of these folks clearly have a 'dog in the hunt,' but FWIW, at http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/tec...es/8566.0.html Zinn interviews a few people who estimate 80% or more use tubulars at the Tour. I see no pictures that show tubulars. Zinn's line is the same one repeated all over the place. Jobst Brandt Holy crap Jobst, he was there as well as a few others from VN, that actually saw that most of the bicycles had carbon and aluminum rims and tubulars. The only guys using clinchers were those who are sponsored to ride them. Remember Michelin tubulars, care to guess why they made them in the first place? Instead of wandering around on the 'net', since you are retired, why not spend some time at the euro races and then some time in a local bike shop. I know of a couple in your area that would welcome your visit. Please don't take offense, Peter. I am here to back you up, really. If anyone were to scan the declarations made by the teams, that person would find that 17 of the 22 teams use tubulars for all stages, and two of the remaining five use them for time trials. This information comes from the teams, and is usually collected by the media. It happens that the list I used was in Le Cycle, where all components of all bikes were listed in the Tour special insert. Briefly, Peter, you are totally on target and right. Your experience is broad based, and much more representative of reality than misinformation offered by others. I have sent Mr Brandt the excepts of the tire testing which seems to cut his blather down to size. I sent him a subscription form for one magazine I read, and I think folks in other countries could probably send others. Even in English, from England, where they do good reporting. But he won't buy it, preferring to bark and grumble and scoff. For my part, I gave up tubulars only because I have ten glue magnets on my hands, and it really is a better clincher world today than 20 years ago. If you found it out of context for me to write something nice to you, well, I will just have to wait for the next opportunity to mend my ways. Or I could, right here, mention that virtually all cranksets using integrated axles and outrider bearings have been tested substantially stiffer than any square taper crankset. (Though I do not think we (little riders) really want anything so extremely stiff. -- Bonne route ! Sandy Verneuil-sur-Seine FR |
#27
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Latex on tubular base tape
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#28
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Most Influential Person in my Cycling career/ was latex
Tom Nakashima wrote:
Doesn't mean we have to use it. Peter, you, Jobst Brandt, and Sheldon Brown have made great contributions to this group. The other day we were sitting around after a ride and the question came up; who is the most influential person in your cycling career? Of course the Tour de France riders came up, Eddy Merckx, Greg LeMond, Lance Armstrong, but when it was my turn, I said it was Jobst Brandt. I came to this newsgroup years ago because I thought I could learn a thing or two about maintaining my bike, this was back when VM computers were in style. When I saw the name Jobst Brandt posting, I knew it was the author of the Bicycle Wheel. I thought gosh, this is a goldmine, giving free advice on how to maintain my bike. I figured Brandt would never lead a cyclist in the wrong direction, so I started using some his methods like cleaning the chain, brakepad suggestion, headset and bottom bracket adjustments. Before I knew it, I was maintaining my own bike, and enjoying riding the bike. This newsgroup has changed much since then...more finger pointing, he said she said, which I try to bypass as much as possible. I don't duck into this group as often as I have in the past, but I'm still enjoying cycling, probably more than ever. -tom My experience was similar. I'm back, as of last week. Not sure how long I can stay. I joined this newsgroup in 1985, before Jobst did. For my first few years here, it was easy to read every message in the newsgroup, Usenet being a smaller place then. In fact, I read every message of almost every newsgroup. Small indeed. I worked as a bike mechanic from 1978 to 1984. My boss gave me a copy of The Bicycle Wheel. He had accepted a lot of the mechanics' folklore, and when he read the book, he accepted what Jobst wrote. He passed it on to me. Tom |
#29
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Latex on tubular base tape
Matt wrote:
I'm not claiming any superiority either way. Back then (~1990) I was racing and thought I 'needed' to have tubies-that's what all the other racers had. The first ride that I had on 'em, I must've stopped and checked to make sure that they weren't flat at least 5 times. They just rode smoother. The were the same width, and at the same pressure as my clinchers. However, IIRC, I was riding some really cheap clinchers at the time. The wheels were (and still are) definitely quite light--32h gl-330's w/ 15/16 spokes & alloy nipples. (Don't flame me--I didn't know any better!) I claim no empircally demonstrable superiority either way. Maybe it was snob appeal. Maybe there was a difference. Maybe its like "Mom's cooking"--nostalgia has made the memories better than the facts. Oh well... Matt. My memory says the same thing. They felt great. Then again, my memory may not be accurate. When I switched to tubulars, I was also switching to rims and tires that were MUCH lighter than what I had been using. Tom |
#30
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Latex on tubular base tape
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:37:53 GMT,
wrote: [snip] And Phil Ligget routinely described TdF riders descending the 8% grade of the Galibier Pass going 60mph, a number that gets quoted routinely. That does not make it happen. [snip] Dear Jobst, Assuming that you're right and that Phil Ligget did indeed say that Tour de France riders were doing 60 mph down the Galibier, here's what I found when I looked around. Here's a distance and elevation profile: http://www.salite.ch/galibier.htm Hmmm . . . it shows a kilometer of average 10.1% grade from the top, descending to 2646 down to 2535 meters, or about 8200 feet. That 10.1% is significantly steeper than the 8% that you mentioned--and lower down the pass is a kilometer-long stretch at 8.8% that flattens out to 8.7% at 2217 meters, or about 7200 feet. I've no idea if these are the stretches of road in question or if they're straight enough to allow high speeds, but at least anyone can look them up. The other side of the pass has about 6 kilometers high up at an average 8.5% grade: http://www.salite.ch/galibier2.htm Here are two speed calculators that anyone can use: http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocity/velocity.html When I plug the grades and elevations into these calculators, here's what I get: 8200 8200 7200 7200 10.1% 10.1% 8.8% 8.8% tri/ drops tri/ drops aero aero mph mph mph mph kreu 61.3 55.9 55.9 50.9 aust 62.2 54.8 56.6 49.8 I used 68F with a 157.2-lb rider and 20.9-lb bike, which are the defaults for the Kreuzotter calculator. Tour riders are probably somewhere between ordinary no-tuck hands-on-drops and aerobars/triathlon bars. The calculators suggest that given enough straight road and a willingness to tuck in, a rider under 160 pounds can coast 55-60 mph down stretches of the Galibier. This is hardly surprising. Hell, Boy Scouts earning merit badges for bicycling the dull road from Pueblo to Beulah break 50 mph rolling down Rock Creek Hill, which is just a half-mile stretch of straight road that drops from the prairie down to the canyon floor at about 5400 feet: http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=13...83&layer=DRG25 All they do is pedal over the top, tuck in, and enjoy the ride. Gravity and reduced wind drag do the rest. Carl Fogel |
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