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  #21  
Old August 2nd 05, 04:01 PM
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

wrote:
Russell Seaton1 writes:

Who still rides tubular tires, and why?


I stopped in a bike shop yesterday. I asked the owner what they
use in track racing. I trust he knows. I asked specifically about
tires and pedals. He said they use special clipless pedals and
clincher tires.


If clincher tires are good enough for track racers, I can't think
of a practical purpose for tubulars any more.


Responding to the person who stated this. Clinchers may be used at
the local velodrome by some. But at the upper levels, tubulars are
used on the track. If you look at the wheels the pros use, Mavic
disks and Campagnolo Ghibli disks, Campagnolo Pista wheels, Mavic 5
spoke wheels, these ONLY come in tubular. No clincher verison of
these track wheels exist in the world. There is no question about
whether these riders are using tubular or clincher.


Do a Google search for the Mavic and Campagnolo web sites and you can
determine for yourself that the disk wheels and track wheels are
only available in tubular.


Go over to the
www.cyclingnews.com website for pictures of various
professional track events around the world and look at the wheels
being used.


Most of the Tour de France is ridden on tubulars.


This is often claimed but I haven't seen evidence of that among the
professional racers in similar events that I had the opportunity to
inspect. I have not seen TdF bicycles at close enough range to
determine what sort of tires they had.


www.cyclingnews.com website has pictures of bikes used in the Tour
de France. And other professional races. I guess one could always
claim the bikes in the pictures are not really the ones being ridden
during the race itself and the tubular wheels shown in the picture
are changed out for the superior clinchers before the race.


I see you want I should do a web search to prove your point. Please
give a URL that clearly shows the tubular tire being used by "most"
TdF riders. That tubulars are used is not contested, only that they
are used commonly by most riders.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20.../JD05tdfstg614

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...tdf05-techfb-2

I have no website showing "most" of the Tour riders using tubulars.
The above photos show the bike Lorenzo Bernucci from Fassa Bartolo used
to win Stage 6 of the Tour. I don't think this Bernucci is a famous
rider. One of many domestiques. So if a domestique is using tubulars
on Bora wheels, I would suspect the famous names are also using at
least as nice of equipment.



In many of the Tour and other race pictures you see riders using
Campagnolo Bora wheels, Lightweight wheels, ADA wheels, etc. These are
all carbon wheels ONLY available in tubular. There is no clincher
version of these wheels. How can the racers in the Tour pictures not
be riding tubulars?


There is no doubt that there is a weight advantage but for overall
reliability on rough roads and steep descents, they present problems.


I'm familiar with a few of the problems with tubulars. I have some. I
don't claim they are the greatest thing since derailleurs. For rough
roads and loaded touring, I use big 35mm heavy duty touring tires.



Because it's glued to the rim, you can continue riding a flat
tubular while waiting for the support car and mechanic to rush up
and slap in a new wheel. (A flat clincher is much harder to ride.)


I don't believe you are speaking from experience. I have ridden
many miles on both flat tubulars and clinchers, on pavement and
dirt roads, and found there to be no significant difference. I
believe this story is propagated from hearsay.


You also expect to have fewer impact flats, even at lower and more
comfortable pressures, because the tubular tire and rim don't tend
to pinch things like a clincher rim. Pros like the idea of a more
comfortable, more reliable tire, and they have someone else to
take care of gluing up a dozen spare wheels.


The lower pinch flat rate that some tubular tires have is achieved
by the use of thin latex tubes, thin latex tubes having many times
the stretch limit before perforation than butyl tubes. So if you
were to hammer on a tube inside a tire casing lying on a smooth
surface, it would take several times the force to perforate the
latex tube. It has nothing to do with the rim; the rim never
contacting the tube that lies inside the tire casing.


My Continental Sprinter tubulars have butyl tubes. I suffered very few
if any pinch flats with them. I have pinch flatted clinchers with
butyl tubes. The tubulars were ridden at lower pressure too.


Then it's not the tubulars that do that. I went through the
transition from latex to butyl tubes in tubulars and the increase in
snake bites was strikingly apparent.

The term "snake bite" flat originated at my Wednesday tubular
repair sessions in the1960's and -70's because the holes were so
small, the second on often invisible without inflation that pinch
flats were scrutinized for the second "snake bite" hole... before
patching and sewing the tire casing only to fins a slower leak at
the same location.


People also talk about handling, weight, rolling resistance, and
other somewhat dubious matters, but fewer flats, more comfortable
pressures, and the ability to keep going when flats do occur seem
to be the practical reasons.


This sounds much like the leg shaving excuse where riders claim
they do it for crashing to prevent subsequent hair entrapment in
their precious bodily fluids.


No personal experience, but I have heard getting a massage on smooth
hairless skin is preferable to hairy skin. I believe professional
racers get massages quite frequently.


In that case, why do you persist in repeating this myth?

Of course, outside such races, tubulars are popular for reasons of
tradition, fashion, and the love of fooling with sticky, tricky
stuff.


That can be reduced to "me-too", the pros do it.


Jobst Brandt


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  #22  
Old August 2nd 05, 04:14 PM
Bill Sornson
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Default Most Influential Person in my Cycling career/ was latex

Tom Nakashima wrote:
The other day we were sitting around after a ride and the question
came up; who is the most influential
person in your cycling career? Of course the Tour de France riders
came up, Eddy Merckx, Greg
LeMond, Lance Armstrong, but when it was my turn, I said it was Jobst
Brandt.


So adding the "Subject:", then your most influential person was JB...in
latex!

{sideshowbobshudder.wav}

Bill "STILL a slow morning" S.


  #23  
Old August 2nd 05, 04:24 PM
Qui si parla Campagnolo
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Default Most Influential Person in my Cycling career/ was latex


Tom Nakashima wrote:
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:

Lots snipped. Don't wrestle with this pig(the thread Jobst, not you
personally)
European racing is all about myth and lore and in Jobst's view all
should ride on Avocet clinchers(28c), have hairly legs(who cares about
massage or what they do in an emergency room with bad scapes(hint-shave
ya)),use too big steel frames with downtube shifters. Tubies are for
geeks, along with tying and soldering and carbon wheels.

Jobst Brandt is the one true source and all the rest of us that
actually see this stuff in a bike shop are full of ****e...


Doesn't mean we have to use it.
Peter, you, Jobst Brandt, and Sheldon Brown have made great contributions
to this group.
The other day we were sitting around after a ride and the question came up;
who is the most influential
person in your cycling career? Of course the Tour de France riders came up,
Eddy Merckx, Greg
LeMond, Lance Armstrong, but when it was my turn, I said it was Jobst
Brandt.

I came to this newsgroup years ago because I thought I could learn a thing
or two about maintaining my bike, this
was back when VM computers were in style. When I saw the name Jobst Brandt
posting, I knew it was the author of the Bicycle Wheel. I thought gosh, this
is a goldmine, giving free advice on how to maintain my bike. I figured
Brandt would never lead a cyclist in the wrong direction



Nope, as long as it's his direction, based on reality or not.

, so I started using
some his methods like cleaning the chain, brakepad suggestion, headset and
bottom bracket adjustments. Before I knew it, I was maintaining my own bike,
and enjoying riding the bike.

This newsgroup has changed much since then...more finger pointing, he said
she said, which I try to bypass as much as possible. I don't duck into this
group as often as I have in the past, but I'm still enjoying cycling,
probably more than ever.
-tom


  #24  
Old August 2nd 05, 04:53 PM
41
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Default Most Influential Person in my Cycling career/ was latex


Tom Nakashima wrote:


The other day we were sitting around after a ride and the question came up;
who is the most inf luential
person in your cycling career? Of course the Tour de France riders came up,
Eddy Merckx, Greg
LeMond, Lance Armstrong, but when it was my turn, I said it was Jobst
Brandt.

I came to this newsgroup years ago because I thought I cou ld learn a thing
or two about maintaining my bike, this
was back when VM computers were in style. When I saw the name Jobst Brandt
posting, I knew it was the author of the Bicycle Wheel. I thought gosh, this
is a goldmine, giving free advice o n how to maintain my bike. I figured
Brandt would never lead a cyclist in the wrong direction, so I started using
some his methods like cleaning the chain, brakepad suggestion, headset and
bottom bracket adjustments. Before I knew it, I was maint aining my own bike,
and enjoying riding the bike.


A different perspective on the matter.

The most influential person in my cycling life was Eugene A. Sloane. I
started reading his columns in the back issues of Popular Mechanics
when I must have been about 8 years old. From him I learned to build
wheels without any lubrication, which could not be tensioned adequately
and which went wildly out of true in short order, to assemble all sorts
of threaded fasteners without a thought of grease, only light oil on
the stem expander bolt threads, to tighten the crankbolts after 100-250
miles and perhaps more often after that, that kayak helmets could get a
rider through high speed alpine crashes bouncing along head first on
sharp rocks with nary a scratch, to use yellow sunglasses in the rain
because they made dark days a whole lot cheerier, that an
aluminum-riveted frame gave a soft and comfortable ride and was a
viable construction, that low-flange hubs crossed four gave a more
comfortable ride than high flange cross three, some more stuff about
rotating weight and so on. Fortunately I had BS detection even back
then and ignored the crankbolt and helmet and aluminum-riveted frame
advice, although the recommendation to use grease on fasteners only
came much later.

On the other hand I also learned from Sloane that bicycle commuting in
the winter in a major northern US city was viable, that excercise was
healthful and that the North American lifestyle was not, about the
hazards of sewer gratings and bridge expansion joints and parked cars
in the dark, about traffic safety problems, that bicycle touring and
racing existed, that bicycles didn't have to weigh 45 pounds and much
more.

I could have done much worse. But I wish Brandt's advice and
experiences had been available back then..

  #25  
Old August 2nd 05, 05:28 PM
Sandy
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

Dans le message de
ups.com,
Qui si parla Campagnolo a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
wrote:
Matt Roberts writes:

I don't want to step in the middle of this...I ride clinchers, but I
remember the sweet feel of my gl-330's w/ vittora criteriums. I
still have the wheels, I just need to rebuild 'em with a new
hub....but I digress.


I see you want I should do a web search to prove your point.
Please give a URL that clearly shows the tubular tire being used
by "most" TdF riders.


Some of these folks clearly have a 'dog in the hunt,' but FWIW, at
http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/tec...es/8566.0.html Zinn
interviews a few people who estimate 80% or more use tubulars at the
Tour.


I see no pictures that show tubulars. Zinn's line is the same one
repeated all over the place.

Jobst Brandt


Holy crap Jobst, he was there as well as a few others from VN, that
actually saw that most of the bicycles had carbon and aluminum rims
and tubulars. The only guys using clinchers were those who are
sponsored to ride them.

Remember Michelin tubulars, care to guess why they made them in the
first place?

Instead of wandering around on the 'net', since you are retired, why
not spend some time at the euro races and then some time in a local
bike shop. I know of a couple in your area that would welcome your
visit.


Please don't take offense, Peter. I am here to back you up, really.
If anyone were to scan the declarations made by the teams, that person would
find that 17 of the 22 teams use tubulars for all stages, and two of the
remaining five use them for time trials. This information comes from the
teams, and is usually collected by the media. It happens that the list I
used was in Le Cycle, where all components of all bikes were listed in the
Tour special insert.

Briefly, Peter, you are totally on target and right. Your experience is
broad based, and much more representative of reality than misinformation
offered by others. I have sent Mr Brandt the excepts of the tire testing
which seems to cut his blather down to size. I sent him a subscription form
for one magazine I read, and I think folks in other countries could probably
send others. Even in English, from England, where they do good reporting.
But he won't buy it, preferring to bark and grumble and scoff.

For my part, I gave up tubulars only because I have ten glue magnets on my
hands, and it really is a better clincher world today than 20 years ago.

If you found it out of context for me to write something nice to you, well,
I will just have to wait for the next opportunity to mend my ways. Or I
could, right here, mention that virtually all cranksets using integrated
axles and outrider bearings have been tested substantially stiffer than any
square taper crankset. (Though I do not think we (little riders) really
want anything so extremely stiff.
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR


  #26  
Old August 2nd 05, 06:34 PM
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:37:53 GMT,
wrote:

Carl Fogel writes:

Most of the Tour de France is ridden on tubulars.


This is often claimed but I haven't seen evidence of that among
the professional racers in similar events that I had the
opportunity to inspect. I have not seen TdF bicycles at close
enough range to determine what sort of tires they had.


The last seven Tours de France were won on tubular tires, and the
guy who won never suffered a flat tire during the race.


So what? On most of my trips in the Alps that cover about the same
distance and more climbing than the TdF, I never pump my clincher
tires for the distance. What does that prove other than that the
tubes do not leak down as fast as the Clement Tubulars with latex
tubes that I used to ride on these tours, pumping them up daily.


http://tinyurl.com/adls

Reporters who cover the Tour routinely comment that tubulars are the
overwhelming favorite, so I'll believe them--they saw the tires that
you didn't.


And Phil Ligget routinely described TdF riders descending the 8% grade
of the Galibier Pass going 60mph, a number that gets quoted routinely.
That does not make it happen.

As for comparing your trips to the Tour, please tell us your average
speed. Was it around 27 mph for 2100 miles? Did you average 34 mph
on the first day?


Tires, Carl, tires and miles. On the other hand get off your endless
pursuit of irrelevant minutia.

If kinetic energy affects impact flats, would you predict that
professionals racing through towns on blocked-off roads in tight
pelotons with obvious visibility and maneuvering problems might
worry more about impact flats than retired bicycle tourists enjoying
wonderful visibility on Alpine passes?


You have a vivid imagination of how races are won and what causes
flats. TdF top speeds are not higher than those of active touring but
are maintained over long distances. The threat of punctures is no
larger than for non-professional riders. In fact, from what we read
here, wreck.bike riders get more flats than TdF riders and commiserate
about it plenty.

Jobst Brandt


Dear Jobst,

Impact speed is irrelevant minutiae when the subject is
impact flats? Kinetic energy has no effect?

Again, please tell us your average speed for your tour, the
one that led you to write "So what?" when the Tour de France
was mentioned in connection with impact flats. Was your
average speed 15 mph? Eighteen?

The average speed, after all, should have a strong relation
to the average speed of impact--unlike the distance or the
elevation change, which were the two details that you
mentioned.

Carl Fogel
  #27  
Old August 2nd 05, 06:44 PM
Tom Reingold
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

wrote:
On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 16:03:37 -0400, Tom Reingold
wrote:


Who still rides tubular tires, and why?

I stopped in a bike shop yesterday. I asked the owner what they use in
track racing. I trust he knows. I asked specifically about tires and
pedals. He said they use special clipless pedals and clincher tires.

If clincher tires are good enough for track racers, I can't think of a
practical purpose for tubulars any more.

Tom



Dear Tom,

Most of the Tour de France is ridden on tubulars.

Because it's glued to the rim, you can continue riding a
flat tubular while waiting for the support car and mechanic
to rush up and slap in a new wheel. (A flat clincher is much
harder to ride.)

You also expect to have fewer impact flats, even at lower
and more comfortable pressures, because the tublar tire and
rim don't tend to pinch things like a clincher rim. Pros
like the idea of a more comfortable, more reliable tire, and
they have someone else to take care of gluing up a dozen
spare wheels.

People also talk about handling, weight, rolling resistance,
and other somewhat dubious matters, but fewer flats, more
comfortable pressures, and the ability to keep going when
flats do occur seem to be the practical reasons.

Of course, outside such races, tubulars are popular for
reasons of tradition, fashion, and the love of fooling with
sticky, tricky stuff.

Carl Fogel



Interesting! Thanks for letting me know!

I very foolishly took a three month tour in Europe on tubulars in 1981.
I had loaded panniers and a handlebar bag. There was a period of one
month when I got one flat per day. Then a bike shop owner in Dublin told
me how crazy I was and sold me some heavier tubulars. That solved the
problem.

It took me an hour to open, patch, sew, and glue a tubular, so that's
how I spent my evening tea time with the other hostelers. My odd craft
made for good conversation, but I don't relish doing it ever again.

Tom
  #28  
Old August 2nd 05, 07:03 PM
Tom Reingold
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Default Most Influential Person in my Cycling career/ was latex

Tom Nakashima wrote:

Doesn't mean we have to use it.
Peter, you, Jobst Brandt, and Sheldon Brown have made great contributions
to this group.
The other day we were sitting around after a ride and the question came up;
who is the most influential
person in your cycling career? Of course the Tour de France riders came up,
Eddy Merckx, Greg
LeMond, Lance Armstrong, but when it was my turn, I said it was Jobst
Brandt.

I came to this newsgroup years ago because I thought I could learn a thing
or two about maintaining my bike, this
was back when VM computers were in style. When I saw the name Jobst Brandt
posting, I knew it was the author of the Bicycle Wheel. I thought gosh, this
is a goldmine, giving free advice on how to maintain my bike. I figured
Brandt would never lead a cyclist in the wrong direction, so I started using
some his methods like cleaning the chain, brakepad suggestion, headset and
bottom bracket adjustments. Before I knew it, I was maintaining my own bike,
and enjoying riding the bike.

This newsgroup has changed much since then...more finger pointing, he said
she said, which I try to bypass as much as possible. I don't duck into this
group as often as I have in the past, but I'm still enjoying cycling,
probably more than ever.
-tom






My experience was similar. I'm back, as of last week. Not sure how long
I can stay. I joined this newsgroup in 1985, before Jobst did. For my
first few years here, it was easy to read every message in the
newsgroup, Usenet being a smaller place then. In fact, I read every
message of almost every newsgroup. Small indeed.

I worked as a bike mechanic from 1978 to 1984. My boss gave me a copy of
The Bicycle Wheel. He had accepted a lot of the mechanics' folklore, and
when he read the book, he accepted what Jobst wrote. He passed it on to me.

Tom
  #29  
Old August 2nd 05, 07:06 PM
Tom Reingold
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

Matt wrote:
I'm not claiming any superiority either way. Back then (~1990) I was
racing and thought I 'needed' to have tubies-that's what all the other
racers had. The first ride that I had on 'em, I must've stopped and
checked to make sure that they weren't flat at least 5 times. They just
rode smoother. The were the same width, and at the same pressure as my
clinchers. However, IIRC, I was riding some really cheap clinchers at
the time. The wheels were (and still are) definitely quite light--32h
gl-330's w/ 15/16 spokes & alloy nipples. (Don't flame me--I didn't
know any better!)

I claim no empircally demonstrable superiority either way. Maybe it was
snob appeal. Maybe there was a difference. Maybe its like "Mom's
cooking"--nostalgia has made the memories better than the facts.

Oh well...
Matt.



My memory says the same thing. They felt great. Then again, my memory
may not be accurate. When I switched to tubulars, I was also switching
to rims and tires that were MUCH lighter than what I had been using.

Tom
  #30  
Old August 2nd 05, 07:56 PM
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Default Latex on tubular base tape

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:37:53 GMT,
wrote:

[snip]

And Phil Ligget routinely described TdF riders descending the 8% grade
of the Galibier Pass going 60mph, a number that gets quoted routinely.
That does not make it happen.


[snip]

Dear Jobst,

Assuming that you're right and that Phil Ligget did indeed
say that Tour de France riders were doing 60 mph down the
Galibier, here's what I found when I looked around.

Here's a distance and elevation profile:

http://www.salite.ch/galibier.htm

Hmmm . . . it shows a kilometer of average 10.1% grade from
the top, descending to 2646 down to 2535 meters, or about
8200 feet.

That 10.1% is significantly steeper than the 8% that you
mentioned--and lower down the pass is a kilometer-long
stretch at 8.8% that flattens out to 8.7% at 2217 meters,
or about 7200 feet.

I've no idea if these are the stretches of road in question
or if they're straight enough to allow high speeds, but at
least anyone can look them up.

The other side of the pass has about 6 kilometers high up
at an average 8.5% grade:

http://www.salite.ch/galibier2.htm

Here are two speed calculators that anyone can use:

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

http://w3.iac.net/~curta/bp/velocity/velocity.html

When I plug the grades and elevations into these
calculators,
here's what I get:

8200 8200 7200 7200
10.1% 10.1% 8.8% 8.8%
tri/ drops tri/ drops
aero aero

mph mph mph mph
kreu 61.3 55.9 55.9 50.9
aust 62.2 54.8 56.6 49.8

I used 68F with a 157.2-lb rider and 20.9-lb bike, which
are the defaults for the Kreuzotter calculator.

Tour riders are probably somewhere between ordinary no-tuck
hands-on-drops and aerobars/triathlon bars.

The calculators suggest that given enough straight road
and a willingness to tuck in, a rider under 160 pounds
can coast 55-60 mph down stretches of the Galibier.

This is hardly surprising. Hell, Boy Scouts earning merit
badges for bicycling the dull road from Pueblo to Beulah
break 50 mph rolling down Rock Creek Hill, which is just
a half-mile stretch of straight road that drops from the
prairie down to the canyon floor at about 5400 feet:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=13...83&layer=DRG25

All they do is pedal over the top, tuck in, and enjoy the
ride. Gravity and reduced wind drag do the rest.

Carl Fogel
 




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