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#1
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Match Sprint Tactics
I watched the match sprints at Manchester velodrome last Saturday and feel
that I don't really understand the tactics. I understand about drafting and getting the other person to jump first, but I can't figure out a couple of other things. Why does leading rider sometimes build the speed up before jumping? Why does the trailing rider allow a 3 or 4 length gap to appear before anyone jumps? -- Andy Morris AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ |
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#2
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Match Sprint Tactics
Why does leading rider sometimes build the speed up before jumping? If he doesn't get the speed up sooner or later, the guy in second position will jump first and just whiz by him with no hope for recovery. If you can't see the guy behind you and are at such a disadvantage, the least you can do is make him work hard at passing you. If the speed is high, you have a chance at countering him. But you'll still likely lose. Why does the trailing rider allow a 3 or 4 length gap to appear before anyone jumps? To better keep an eye on the guy and know what his true intentions are. You can easily see from his body movements what he'll do. 3-4 lengths is not that hard to make up, especially if you already knew that he's about to go |
#3
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Match Sprint Tactics
Andy Morris wrote:
I watched the match sprints at Manchester velodrome last Saturday and feel that I don't really understand the tactics. I understand about drafting and getting the other person to jump first, but I can't figure out a couple of other things. Why does leading rider sometimes build the speed up before jumping? Sprinters play to their own strengths, and against the perceived weaknesses of their opponent. Some can jump hard from a dead standstill, but not hold their top speed for too long. They will naturally be hoping for a late, short sprint. Others may not be able to jump as hard, but can hold their top-end speed longer. They will try to force the trailing rider to jump early. Why does the trailing rider allow a 3 or 4 length gap to appear before anyone jumps? This doesn't seem right to me. Most match sprints I've seen don't let such a big gap open, unless one of the riders is way up the banking, daring the other rider to jump first. Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 |
#4
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Match Sprint Tactics
"Andy Morris" wrote:
I watched the match sprints at Manchester velodrome last Saturday and feel that I don't really understand the tactics. paging Warren. |
#5
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Match Sprint Tactics
Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote: Andy Morris wrote: I watched the match sprints at Manchester velodrome last Saturday and feel that I don't really understand the tactics. I understand about drafting and getting the other person to jump first, but I can't figure out a couple of other things. Why does leading rider sometimes build the speed up before jumping? If you are in front, you might want to make the race unfold such that you reach maximum speed as close to the finish line as possible. This puts the second rider in a quandary (should I pass now? Now? NOW??). If you are far from the line and jump all at once, you will reach your top speed while your opponent benefits from your draft, and then takes the opportunity to use the bit of energy he has saved in this way to get past you. Why does the trailing rider allow a 3 or 4 length gap to appear before anyone jumps? This doesn't seem right to me. Most match sprints I've seen don't let such a big gap open, unless one of the riders is way up the banking, daring the other rider to jump first. Three or four lengths isn't so much. There are a couple of reasons this might be advisable: 1. You are in the back but also higher on the banking. The potential energy you have stored will give you back those few lengths (and possibly more - AND by being behind the rider he may not see your jump, which can be worth a WHOLE LOT of lengths if you get it right). 2. You want to take a run at him. You want to time your sprint so that you enter his slipstream at a higher rate of speed than he is travelling so that when you pull out of his slipstream and hit unbroken air, you have a little momentum in your favor. This requires good timing and, in my experience, is most important when you and your opponent are evenly matched. 3. You want to avoid any possibility of your opponent controlling you. If you are parked right on his bumper, he can stall before jumping, or roll up track and make your passing lane effectively smaller in width or longer in length (within the rules of course, the enforcement of which varies A LOT depending on where you are, who is riding, and who is in the blue shirt). 4. You are confident that you are much, much faster than your opponent and want to either show off, force him into going really long, or want to give yourself a challenge. Two anecdotes of #3 and #4. When I was fairly inexperienced I rode a 2-up sprint against Nothstein. I parked myself right on his backwheel as we rode around the top of the banking. He was going to win and we both knew that, but he took the opportunity to have some fun with it. As we rolled down the banking in turn four he put backpressure on the pedals, and even though I reacted quickly I had to do the same even harder and got all bunched toward the front of my bike. He could've jumped right then and gotten a gap just that way, but didn't. He waited another half lap before doing that. A few years ago I had a 2-up match against a good endurance rider at Collegiate Nats. He was quick but I qualified about half a sec faster, which is a big advantage. It was the first round so I was expecting an easy ride. I decided I would give him several lengths, induce him to ge the speed up, and roll into his slipstream before sailing around him. With a lap and a half to to I let out some rope... 6 lengths, 7 lengths, nothing to worry about, it's still a long way to go... hmmm, maybe that is too much now (about 10 lengths) - and at that moment he jumps all out. Oh ****. I jump for all I'm worth and now I've got to sprint for 500 meters all out AND make up about 30 meters. I got him in the final straight, but it took me about half an hour to catch my breath, and that was supposed to be an easy win! -RJ |
#6
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Match Sprint Tactics
ronaldo_jeremiah wrote: Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote: Andy Morris wrote: I watched the match sprints at Manchester velodrome last Saturday and feel that I don't really understand the tactics. I understand about drafting and getting the other person to jump first, but I can't figure out a couple of other things. Why does leading rider sometimes build the speed up before jumping? If you are in front, you might want to make the race unfold such that you reach maximum speed as close to the finish line as possible. This puts the second rider in a quandary (should I pass now? Now? NOW??). If you are far from the line and jump all at once, you will reach your top speed while your opponent benefits from your draft, and then takes the opportunity to use the bit of energy he has saved in this way to get past you. Why does the trailing rider allow a 3 or 4 length gap to appear before anyone jumps? This doesn't seem right to me. Most match sprints I've seen don't let such a big gap open, unless one of the riders is way up the banking, daring the other rider to jump first. Three or four lengths isn't so much. There are a couple of reasons this might be advisable: 1. You are in the back but also higher on the banking. The potential energy you have stored will give you back those few lengths (and possibly more - AND by being behind the rider he may not see your jump, which can be worth a WHOLE LOT of lengths if you get it right). 2. You want to take a run at him. You want to time your sprint so that you enter his slipstream at a higher rate of speed than he is travelling so that when you pull out of his slipstream and hit unbroken air, you have a little momentum in your favor. This requires good timing and, in my experience, is most important when you and your opponent are evenly matched. 3. You want to avoid any possibility of your opponent controlling you. If you are parked right on his bumper, he can stall before jumping, or roll up track and make your passing lane effectively smaller in width or longer in length (within the rules of course, the enforcement of which varies A LOT depending on where you are, who is riding, and who is in the blue shirt). 4. You are confident that you are much, much faster than your opponent and want to either show off, force him into going really long, or want to give yourself a challenge. Two anecdotes of #3 and #4. When I was fairly inexperienced I rode a 2-up sprint against Nothstein. I parked myself right on his backwheel as we rode around the top of the banking. He was going to win and we both knew that, but he took the opportunity to have some fun with it. As we rolled down the banking in turn four he put backpressure on the pedals, and even though I reacted quickly I had to do the same even harder and got all bunched toward the front of my bike. He could've jumped right then and gotten a gap just that way, but didn't. He waited another half lap before doing that. A few years ago I had a 2-up match against a good endurance rider at Collegiate Nats. He was quick but I qualified about half a sec faster, which is a big advantage. It was the first round so I was expecting an easy ride. I decided I would give him several lengths, induce him to ge the speed up, and roll into his slipstream before sailing around him. With a lap and a half to to I let out some rope... 6 lengths, 7 lengths, nothing to worry about, it's still a long way to go... hmmm, maybe that is too much now (about 10 lengths) - and at that moment he jumps all out. Oh ****. I jump for all I'm worth and now I've got to sprint for 500 meters all out AND make up about 30 meters. I got him in the final straight, but it took me about half an hour to catch my breath, and that was supposed to be an easy win! -RJ Great illustrations...thanks! Steve -- {\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1033{\fonttbl {\f0\fswiss\fcharset0 Arial;}} {\*\generator Msftedit 5.41.15.1507;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\f0\fs20 Remove "nospam" to reply\par } |
#7
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Match Sprint Tactics
ronaldo_jeremiah wrote: If you are in front, you might want to make the race unfold such that you reach maximum speed as close to the finish line as possible. Dumbass - That's not quite 100% right. If you're the front rider, you want to *accelerate all the way to the line*. It's very difficult for the guy in back to come around a rider who's accelerating because he has to match the acceleration and add some extra to get around. Not an easy task. What's easy is when the front rider is maxed out and the closer he gets to maxed out, the slower he's accelerating. Your statement is mostly right, but determining when to begin accelerating all the way to the line is a complicated equation: gotta take into account 1) distance to the line, 2) current velocity, 3) relative positions, 4) strengths/weaknesses of the opponent vs. 5) strengths/weaknesses of yourself, and that equation changes with every passing second as variables 1-3 change. Then there's "floating" and all the other stuff once the acceleration starts. Then there's "making space" if you're the back guy. and so on. thanks, K. Gringioni. |
#8
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Match Sprint Tactics
Dumbass -
You are right. My explanation was perhaps overly simplistic, but then I didn't mean for it to be as complicated as the Roger Young training manual for sprinters. By the way, Kurgan, your remark in the Cat 2 only races thread made me recall something that happened once when I was in a race with you at SC velodrome. It was a miss and out, maybe 20 or 30 riders in the pack. I had only been to a few races at that track and didn't know all the names, faces, and reputations. Anyway, somebody rode into your back wheel and took out a bunch of spokes, but nobody fell down. Your wheel was trashed but still rolling, so you just went on riding. At the time I was thinking "this dumbass is going to keep riding on this about-to-collapse wheel and get one of us killed so he can win the fredly $10 prize for the-guy-who-finishes-second-to-Framebender." But it didn't collapse. I don't remember what happened. Framebender won the race though - not that I remember that. I just know he did cause he won every race that year. -RJ |
#9
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Match Sprint Tactics
ronaldo_jeremiah wrote: Dumbass - You are right. My explanation was perhaps overly simplistic, but then I didn't mean for it to be as complicated as the Roger Young training manual for sprinters. By the way, Kurgan, your remark in the Cat 2 only races thread made me recall something that happened once when I was in a race with you at SC velodrome. It was a miss and out, maybe 20 or 30 riders in the pack. I had only been to a few races at that track and didn't know all the names, faces, and reputations. Anyway, somebody rode into your back wheel and took out a bunch of spokes, but nobody fell down. Your wheel was trashed but still rolling, so you just went on riding. At the time I was thinking "this dumbass is going to keep riding on this about-to-collapse wheel and get one of us killed so he can win the fredly $10 prize for the-guy-who-finishes-second-to-Framebender." But it didn't collapse. I don't remember what happened. Framebender won the race though - not that I remember that. I just know he did cause he won every race that year. Dumbass - Good story. I did so many races over so many years that I don't even remember that. On Framebender: that dude had that ridiculous top end, but in previous years he didn't have the endurance/recovery to dominate. Then that year, on the way back on the Wednesday ride, I'd see him doing base miles, solo. I thought, "oh oh that's trouble" because those base miles might be able to improve his recovery/endurance and boy, did it. He kicked our collective asses all year long. My "roadie fitness" was of no use against him. The only tactic I had to beat him was to try to wait for a lull in the pace 2-3 laps from the end, launch an attack and hope that nobody would cooperate with him. It worked only a few times 'cause you'd need a 20+ bike length lead going into the last lap to keep from getting caught when he surged. There was no "glory" for us scrubs. thanks, K. Gringioni. |
#10
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Match Sprint Tactics
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
ronaldo_jeremiah wrote: Dumbass - You are right. My explanation was perhaps overly simplistic, but then I didn't mean for it to be as complicated as the Roger Young training manual for sprinters. By the way, Kurgan, your remark in the Cat 2 only races thread made me recall something that happened once when I was in a race with you at SC velodrome. It was a miss and out, maybe 20 or 30 riders in the pack. I had only been to a few races at that track and didn't know all the names, faces, and reputations. Anyway, somebody rode into your back wheel and took out a bunch of spokes, but nobody fell down. Your wheel was trashed but still rolling, so you just went on riding. At the time I was thinking "this dumbass is going to keep riding on this about-to-collapse wheel and get one of us killed so he can win the fredly $10 prize for the-guy-who-finishes-second-to-Framebender." But it didn't collapse. I don't remember what happened. Framebender won the race though - not that I remember that. I just know he did cause he won every race that year. Dumbass - Good story. I did so many races over so many years that I don't even remember that. On Framebender: that dude had that ridiculous top end, but in previous years he didn't have the endurance/recovery to dominate. Then that year, on the way back on the Wednesday ride, I'd see him doing base miles, solo. I thought, "oh oh that's trouble" because those base miles might be able to improve his recovery/endurance and boy, did it. He kicked our collective asses all year long. My "roadie fitness" was of no use against him. The only tactic I had to beat him was to try to wait for a lull in the pace 2-3 laps from the end, launch an attack and hope that nobody would cooperate with him. It worked only a few times 'cause you'd need a 20+ bike length lead going into the last lap to keep from getting caught when he surged. There was no "glory" for us scrubs. thanks, K. Gringioni. Who was "Framebender"? Steve -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 |
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