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#21
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Some Bicyclists Think They Are Above the Law
Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:46:18 +0000 (UTC), Beej Jorgensen wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: We don't need to break the law, because we already have access to trails. But, of course, mountain bikers ALSO have access; they just don't want to admit it. I want to admit it! I have legal access to virtually all the public trails in Tilden Park, many of which I legally ride on my mountain bike. I think you owe me an apology. For destroying the park and its wildlife? Give me a break. You owe all of us an apology. -Beej === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande Looks like this is going to turn up all blue and pointless due to my email prog, but I will reply anyway... I have noticed that you, Mike Vandeman (who will presumably read this at some point), seem to be entirely against mountain biking, and thus there is no reason for you to be reading, let alone responding to posts here. You seem to love spurring debates, but I'll go on ahead anyway. Perhaps you should do your research. There have been measurements of trail erosion caused by various groups using multi-purpose trails. Mountain bikers often cause erosion to the same extent that HIKERS do, and to a far lesser extent than do equestrians. Perhaps any 'destruction' we cause to 'parks and wildlife' appears more noticeable due to our tire treads, which generally follow the centre of the trail, occasionally compounding upon eachother's and leaving slight and visible 'dents' or ruts in trails, but hikers may cause just as much to different areas of the trail, dependent on conditions. Regardless, mountain bikers using legal trails have no ruddy reason to apologize to anybody. I don't believe we go around torching squirrels or felling trees with reckless abandon in general, and thus we don't particularly contribute to the destruction of wildlife. If mountain bikers do erode and destroy trails and wildlife so much, then why are all the trails at my local mtb park, ridden very frequently even in muddy conditions, and not maintained too much, fairly smooth and undamaged, like the local hiking trails, if slightly depressed in the middle, as well as being surrounded by trees and chirping birds? |
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#22
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Some Bicyclists Think They Are Above the Law
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 02:24:52 GMT, AJ wrote:
Mike Vandeman wrote: On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:46:18 +0000 (UTC), Beej Jorgensen wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: We don't need to break the law, because we already have access to trails. But, of course, mountain bikers ALSO have access; they just don't want to admit it. I want to admit it! I have legal access to virtually all the public trails in Tilden Park, many of which I legally ride on my mountain bike. I think you owe me an apology. For destroying the park and its wildlife? Give me a break. You owe all of us an apology. -Beej === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande Looks like this is going to turn up all blue and pointless due to my email prog, but I will reply anyway... I have noticed that you, Mike Vandeman (who will presumably read this at some point), seem to be entirely against mountain biking, and thus there is no reason for you to be reading, let alone responding to posts here. You seem to love spurring debates, but I'll go on ahead anyway. Perhaps you should do your research. There have been measurements of trail erosion caused by various groups using multi-purpose trails. Mountain bikers often cause erosion to the same extent that HIKERS do, and to a far lesser extent than do equestrians. Perhaps any 'destruction' we cause to 'parks and wildlife' appears more noticeable due to our tire treads, which generally follow the centre of the trail, occasionally compounding upon eachother's and leaving slight and visible 'dents' or ruts in trails, but hikers may cause just as much to different areas of the trail, dependent on conditions. Regardless, mountain bikers using legal trails have no ruddy reason to apologize to anybody. I don't believe we go around torching squirrels or felling trees with reckless abandon in general, and thus we don't particularly contribute to the destruction of wildlife. If mountain bikers do erode and destroy trails and wildlife so much, then why are all the trails at my local mtb park, ridden very frequently even in muddy conditions, and not maintained too much, fairly smooth and undamaged, like the local hiking trails, if slightly depressed in the middle, as well as being surrounded by trees and chirping birds? Thanks for demonstrating just how utterly ignorant mountain bikers are. That so-called "research" was refuted by me long ago: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7. Do your homework, before putting your foot in your mouth. === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#23
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Coal Interests Fight Polar Bear Action :: Unequivocal, Mike Vandeman, "warming of the climate system is unequivocal"
Coal Interests Fight Polar Bear Action :: Unequivocal, Mike Vandeman,
"warming of the climate system is unequivocal" http://www.statesman.com/blogs/conte...interests.html Coal Interests Fight Polar Bear Action An organization representing companies that mine coal and burn it to make electricity has called on its members to fight the proposed listing of the polar bear as an endangered or threatened species. "This will essentially declare 'open season' for environmental lawyers to sue to block viirtually any project that involves carbon dioxide emissions," the Western Business Roundtable said in an e-mail. To settle a lawsuit by environmental groups, the Department of Interior announced last month that it would take a year to consider whether global warming and melting Arctic ice justifies declaring the bear "endangered" or "threatened" under the Endangered Species Act. "This seems a little unfair, pitting all those big coal companies and power companies against the poor polar bear," sniffed Frank O'Donnell, president of Clean Air Watch. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20...urce=whitelist Inside the secretive plan to gut the Endangered Species Act Proposed regulatory changes, obtained by Salon, would destroy the "safety net for animals and plants on the brink of extinction," say environmentalists. March 27, 2007 | The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is maneuvering to fundamentally weaken the Endangered Species Act, its strategy laid out in an internal 117-page draft proposal obtained by Salon. The proposed changes limit the number of species that can be protected and curtail the acres of wildlife habitat to be preserved. It shifts authority to enforce the act from the federal government to the states, and it dilutes legal barriers that protect habitat from sprawl, logging or mining. "The proposed changes fundamentally gut the intent of the Endangered Species Act," says Jan Hasselman, a Seattle attorney with Earthjustice, an environmental law firm, who helped Salon interpret the proposal. "This is a no-holds-barred end run around one of America's most popular environmental protections. If these regulations stand up, the act will no longer provide a safety net for animals and plants on the brink of extinction." In recent months, the Fish and Wildlife Service has gone to extraordinary efforts to keep drafts of regulatory changes from the public. All copies of the working document were given a number corresponding to a person, so that leaked copies could be traced to that individual. An e-mail sent in March from an assistant regional director at the Fish and Wildlife Service to agency staff, asking for comments on and corrections to the first draft, underscored the concern with secrecy: "Please Keep close hold for now. Dale [Hall, director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service] does not want this stuff leaking out to stir up discontent based on speculation." Many Fish and Wildlife Service employees believe the draft is not based on "defensible science," says a federal employee who asked to remain anonymous. Yet "there is genuine fear of retaliation for communicating that to the media. People are afraid for their jobs." Chris Tollefson, a spokesperson for the service, says that while it's accurate to characterize the agency as trying to keep the draft under wraps, the agency has every intention of communicating with the public about the proposed changes; the draft just hasn't been ready. And, he adds, it could still be changed as part of a forthcoming formal review process. Administration critics characterize the secrecy as a way to maintain spin control, says Kieran Suckling, policy director of the Center for Biological Diversity, a national environmental group. "This administration will often release a 300-page-long document at a press conference for a newspaper story that will go to press in two hours, giving the media or public no opportunity to digest it and figure out what's going on," Suckling says. "[Interior Secretary Dirk] Kempthorne will give a feel-good quote about how the new regulations are good for the environment, and they can win the public relations war." In some ways, the proposed changes to the Endangered Species Act should come as no surprise. President Bush has hardly been one of its fans. Under his reign, the administration has granted 57 species endangered status, the action in each case being prompted by a lawsuit. That's fewer than in any other administration in history -- and far fewer than were listed during the administrations of Reagan (253), Clinton (521) or Bush I (234). Furthermore, during this administration, nearly half of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service employees who work with endangered species reported that they had been directed by their superiors to ignore scientific evidence that would result in recommendations for the protection of species, according to a 2005 survey of more than 1,400 service biologists, ecologists and botanists conducted by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, a nonprofit organization. "We are not allowed to be honest and forthright, we are expected to rubber stamp everything," wrote a Fish and Wildlife Service biologist as part of the survey. "I have 20 years of federal service in this and this is the worst it has ever been." The agency has long seen a need to improve the act, says Tollefson. "This is a look at what's possible," he says. "Too much of our time as an agency is spent responding to litigation rather than working on recovering the species that are most in need. The current way the act is run creates disincentives for people to get involved with recovering species." Kempthorne, boss of the Fish and Wildlife Service, has been an outspoken critic of the act. When he was a U.S. senator from Idaho in the late 1990s, he championed legislation that would have allowed government agencies to exempt their actions from Endangered Species Act regulations, and would have required federal agents to conduct cost-benefit analyses when considering whether to list a species as endangered. (The legislation failed.) Last June, in his early days as interior secretary, Kempthorne told reporters, "I really believe that we can make improvements to the act itself." Kempthorne is keeping good on his promise. The proposed draft is littered with language lifted directly from both Kempthorne's 1998 legislation as well as from a contentious bill by former Rep. Richard Pombo, R-Calif. (which was also shot down by Congress). It's "a wish list of regulations that the administration and its industry allies have been talking about for years," says Suckling. Written in terse, dry legal language, the proposed draft doesn't make for easy reading. However, the changes, often seemingly subtle, generally serve to strip the Fish and Wildlife Service of the power to do its stated job: to protect wildlife. Some verge on the biologically ridiculous, say critics, while others are a clear concession to industry and conservative Western governors who have long complained that the act degrades the economies of their states by preventing natural-resource extraction. One change would significantly limit the number of species eligible for endangered status. Currently, if a species is likely to become extinct in "the foreseeable future" -- a species-specific timeframe that can stretch up to 300 years -- it's a candidate for act protections. However, the new rules scale back that timeline to mean either 20 years or 10 generations (the agency can choose which timeline). For certain species with long life spans, such as killer whales, grizzly bears or wolves, two decades isn't even one generation. So even if they might be in danger of extinction, they would not make the endangered species list because they'd be unlikely to die out in two decades. "It makes absolutely no sense biologically," wrote Hasselman in an e- mail. "One of the Act's weaknesses is that species aren't protected until they're already in trouble and this proposal puts that flaw on steroids." Perhaps the most significant proposed change gives state governors the opportunity and funding to take over virtually every aspect of the act from the federal government. This includes not only the right to create species-recovery plans and the power to veto the reintroduction of endangered species within state boundaries, but even the authority to determine what plants and animals get protection. For plants and animals in Western states, that's bad news: State politicians throughout the region howled in opposition to the reintroduction of the Mexican gray wolf into Arizona and the Northern Rockies wolf into Yellowstone National Park. "If states are involved, the act would only get minimally enforced," says Bob Hallock, a recently retired 34-year veteran of the Fish and Wildlife Service who, as an endangered species specialist, worked with state agencies in Idaho, Washington and Montana. "States are, if anything, closer to special economic interests. They're more manipulated. The states have not demonstrated the will or interest in upholding the act. It's why we created a federal law in the first place." Additional tweaks in the law would have a major impact. For instance, the proposal would narrow the definition of a species' geographic range from the landscape it inhabited historically to the land it currently occupies. Since the main reason most plants and animals head toward extinction is due to limited habitat, the change would strongly hamper the government's ability to protect chunks of land and allow for a healthy recovery in the wild. The proposal would also allow both ongoing and planned projects by such federal agencies as the Army Corps of Engineers and the Forest Service to go forward, even when scientific evidence indicates that the projects may drive a species to extinction. Under the new regulations, as long as the dam or logging isn't hastening the previous rate of extinction, it's approved. "This makes recovery of species impossible," says Suckling. (You can read the entire proposal, a PDF file, here.) Gutting the Endangered Species Act will only thicken the pall that has hung over the Fish and Wildlife Service for the past six years, Hallock says. "They [the Bush administration] don't want the regulations to be effective. People in the agency are like a bunch of whipped dogs," he says. "I think it's just unacceptable to go around squashing other species; they're of incalculable benefit to us. The optimism we had when this agency started has absolutely been dashed." http://www.earthjustice.org/news/pre...otections.html Bush Administration Rewrite of Endangered Species Act Regulations Would Gut Protections Hush-hush proposal "a no-holds-barred end run around one of America's most popular laws" Washington, DC -- A secret draft of regulations that fundamentally rewrite the Endangered Species Act was leaked to two environmental organizations, which provided them to the press last night An article in Salon quotes Earthjustice attorney Jan Hasselman saying, "The proposed changes fundamentally gut the intent of the Endangered Species Act." The changes are fiercely technical and complicated, but make future listings extremely difficult, redefine key concepts to the detriment of protected species, virtually hand over administration of the act to hostile states, and severely restrict habitat protections. Many of the changes -- lifted from unsuccessful legislative proposals from then-Senator (now Interior Secretary) Dirk Kempthorne and the recently defeated congressman Richard Pombo -- are reactions to policies and practices established as a result of litigation filed by environmental organizations including Earthjustice. "After the failure of these legislative proposals in the last Congress, the Bush administration has opted to gut the Endangered Species Act through the only avenue left open: administrative regulations," said Hasselman. "This end-run around the will of Congress and the American people will not succeed." A major change would make it more difficult for a species to gain protection, by scaling back the "foreseeable future" timeframe in which to consider whether a species is likely to become extinct. Instead of looking far enough ahead to be able to reasonably determine whether a species could be heading for extinction, the new regulations would drastically shorten the timeframe to either 20 years or 10 generations at the agency's discretion. For species with long generations like killer whales and grizzly bears, this truncated view of the future isn't nearly enough time to accurately predict whether they are at-risk now. "These draft regulations represent a total rejection of the values held by the vast majority Americans: that we have a responsibility to protect imperiled species and the special places they call home," said Kate Freund, Legislative Associate at Earthjustice. According to several sources within the Fish and Wildlife Service quoted by Salon, hostility to the law within the agency has never been so intense. "I have 20 years of federal service in this and this is the worst it has ever been," one unnamed source is quoted as saying. In addition, the proposal would allow projects by the Forest Service and other agencies to proceed even if scientific evidence suggests that the projects might drive species to extinction so long as the rate of decline doesn't accelerate owing to the project. The Bush administration's antipathy to the law is shown by the numbers of species it has protected, in each case as the result of litigation -- 57. By comparison, 253 species were listed during the Reagan administration, 521 under Clinton, and 234 under Bush I. The administration reportedly had expected to reveal the new regulations in a few weeks. The draft regulations must be published in the Federal Register for public comment before they can become final, which is likely to be at least a year off. Contact: Jan Hasselman, Earthjustice, (206) 343-7340, ext. 25 |
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Some Bicyclists Think They Are Above the Law
Mike Vandeman wrote:
wrote: I think you owe me an apology. For destroying the park and its wildlife? No. But you still have two guesses remaining! -Beej |
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Some Bicyclists Think They Are Above the Law
Mike Vandeman wrote:
Looks like this is going to turn up all blue and pointless due to my email prog, but I will reply anyway... I have noticed that you, Mike Vandeman (who will presumably read this at some point), seem to be entirely against mountain biking, and thus there is no reason for you to be reading, let alone responding to posts here. You seem to love spurring debates, but I'll go on ahead anyway. Perhaps you should do your research. There have been measurements of trail erosion caused by various groups using multi-purpose trails. Mountain bikers often cause erosion to the same extent that HIKERS do, and to a far lesser extent than do equestrians. Perhaps any 'destruction' we cause to 'parks and wildlife' appears more noticeable due to our tire treads, which generally follow the centre of the trail, occasionally compounding upon eachother's and leaving slight and visible 'dents' or ruts in trails, but hikers may cause just as much to different areas of the trail, dependent on conditions. Regardless, mountain bikers using legal trails have no ruddy reason to apologize to anybody. I don't believe we go around torching squirrels or felling trees with reckless abandon in general, and thus we don't particularly contribute to the destruction of wildlife. If mountain bikers do erode and destroy trails and wildlife so much, then why are all the trails at my local mtb park, ridden very frequently even in muddy conditions, and not maintained too much, fairly smooth and undamaged, like the local hiking trails, if slightly depressed in the middle, as well as being surrounded by trees and chirping birds? Thanks for demonstrating just how utterly ignorant mountain bikers are. That so-called "research" was refuted by me long ago: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7. Do your homework, before putting your foot in your mouth. === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande I would, but I have enough to do anyway without reading your redundant drivel... Anyways, I suppose not trudging through the archives was a mistake on my part, but I'll maintain that, at least in my hometown, I honestly don't see bikers destroying trails and wildlife to any extent. This is partially due to all our trails being built only by the CRD, or when they authorize it, preventing spidering networks of trails that take up huge amounts of space and the like, but we still aren't destroying anything. Mountain bikers around here are generally much more respectful of the environment than you'd think, occasionally screaming at illegal loggers and often felling absolutely no trees to create linear trails which they very rarely stray off of. Not all mountain bikers are so innately destructive as you'd suggest in your... thing up there. I must admit your plentiful use of exclamation marks in what I hope isn't some kind of copy of your master's thesis demonstrates a leaning towards feigned innocence, as well, but I shall ignore your varying defects, as we all have them. Your work is based on mountain bikers who ride in wet, deeply muddy conditions with little regard for trails, the environment and, likely, their own safety. There are enough of us who don't follow this model that you're making a moot point, or so I believe. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be calling me ignorant, if I were you, because you don't know me. All the above that I write contains mere theories on your personality. I must wonder where you bought your Ph. D. I shall look on your delightful website. |
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Some Bicyclists Think They Are Above the Law
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:44:23 GMT, AJ wrote:
Mike Vandeman wrote: Looks like this is going to turn up all blue and pointless due to my email prog, but I will reply anyway... I have noticed that you, Mike Vandeman (who will presumably read this at some point), seem to be entirely against mountain biking, and thus there is no reason for you to be reading, let alone responding to posts here. You seem to love spurring debates, but I'll go on ahead anyway. Perhaps you should do your research. There have been measurements of trail erosion caused by various groups using multi-purpose trails. Mountain bikers often cause erosion to the same extent that HIKERS do, and to a far lesser extent than do equestrians. Perhaps any 'destruction' we cause to 'parks and wildlife' appears more noticeable due to our tire treads, which generally follow the centre of the trail, occasionally compounding upon eachother's and leaving slight and visible 'dents' or ruts in trails, but hikers may cause just as much to different areas of the trail, dependent on conditions. Regardless, mountain bikers using legal trails have no ruddy reason to apologize to anybody. I don't believe we go around torching squirrels or felling trees with reckless abandon in general, and thus we don't particularly contribute to the destruction of wildlife. If mountain bikers do erode and destroy trails and wildlife so much, then why are all the trails at my local mtb park, ridden very frequently even in muddy conditions, and not maintained too much, fairly smooth and undamaged, like the local hiking trails, if slightly depressed in the middle, as well as being surrounded by trees and chirping birds? Thanks for demonstrating just how utterly ignorant mountain bikers are. That so-called "research" was refuted by me long ago: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7. Do your homework, before putting your foot in your mouth. === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande I would, but I have enough to do anyway without reading your redundant drivel... Anyways, I suppose not trudging through the archives was a mistake on my part, but I'll maintain that, at least in my hometown, I honestly don't see bikers destroying trails and wildlife to any extent. This is partially due to all our trails being built only by the CRD, or when they authorize it, preventing spidering networks of trails that take up huge amounts of space and the like, but we still aren't destroying anything. Mountain bikers around here are generally much more respectful of the environment than you'd think, occasionally screaming at illegal loggers and often felling absolutely no trees to create linear trails which they very rarely stray off of. Not all mountain bikers are so innately destructive as you'd suggest in your... thing up there. I must admit your plentiful use of exclamation marks in what I hope isn't some kind of copy of your master's thesis demonstrates a leaning towards feigned innocence, as well, but I shall ignore your varying defects, as we all have them. Your work is based on mountain bikers who ride in wet, deeply muddy conditions with little regard for trails, the environment and, likely, their own safety. You obviously never read my paper, because your comments are totally irrelevant. It's not based on biker BEHAVIOR, but on the UNAVOIDABLE impacts of mountain biking, HOWEVER it's done. For example, animals don't care whether the mountain biker who squashes them is polite or not. DUH! There are enough of us who don't follow this model that you're making a moot point, or so I believe. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be calling me ignorant, if I were you, because you don't know me. I can tell from the senseless garbage you write. All the above that I write contains mere theories on your personality. I must wonder where you bought your Ph. D. I shall look on your delightful website. === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
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Some Bicyclists Think They Are Above the Law
Mike Vandeman wrote:
There are enough of us who don't follow this model that you're making a moot point, or so I believe. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be calling me ignorant, if I were you, because you don't know me. I can tell from the senseless garbage you write. That makes me rather discouraged. I thought I was pretty good for a twelve year-old. |
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Some Bicyclists Think They Are Above the Law
Mike Vandeman wrote in
: On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 05:16:50 +0000 (UTC), Beej Jorgensen wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: In the case of mountain bikers, a scientific study showed that more than 85% of mountain bikers don't obey the law. Up to 15% of mountain bikers are law-abiding citizens! Then why is it so hard to find one of them? Is the number you posted accurate? Perhaps the study is flawed. "At the stream crossing 83.1% of the bicyclists traveled through the stream [illegally] and 16.7% crossed the bridge." Please state which "law" was broken. A quote would be nice -Beej === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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Some Bicyclists Think They Are Above the Law
Mike Vandeman wrote in
news On 07 May 2007 19:03:15 GMT, Chris wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote in m: On Tue, 10 Apr 2007 05:16:50 +0000 (UTC), Beej Jorgensen wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: Mike Vandeman wrote: In the case of mountain bikers, a scientific study showed that more than 85% of mountain bikers don't obey the law. Up to 15% of mountain bikers are law-abiding citizens! Then why is it so hard to find one of them? Is the number you posted accurate? Perhaps the study is flawed. "At the stream crossing 83.1% of the bicyclists traveled through the stream [illegally] and 16.7% crossed the bridge." Please state which "law" was broken. A quote would be nice The law that required everyone to use the bridge, not ride through the stream. To Cross or Not to Cross: Mt. Bicyclists' Resource Trail Etiquette Behavior This is "Trail Etiquette" and I dont dispute that all should follow it (Cyclists, Peds, and Equestians) but this is not the law. California state statutes can be found here : http://www.prairienet.org/~scruffy/f.htm or here http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/statute.html Please show me which law is broken by crossing a stream versus using a bridge. Just 'teaching' you a few little tid-bits -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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