Before & after bike ghettos

On Oct 20, 5:41*am, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in ...
On Oct 19, 12:38 pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"Radey Shouman" wrote in ...
Nope. *I'm finding it hard to believe that people are obstructed in
that situation with any regularity.

Incredible.

Admittedly, I don't have to deal with such dense traffic very often.
One of you guys talked about a mile backup from a stop sign, something
I've absolutely never seen. *That's well over 200 cars backed up, and
at an overoptimistic five seconds per car, that's over fifteen minutes
to even make it to the stop sign.

Had to take the car today (grumble) and had a wait of 10 minutes at
one stop. *Probably not a mile, more like 4 blocks but it's a 4-way so it
took more than 5 seconds per car.
On my bike, I would have been in the bike lane (sorry, I meant inside the
paint) and it would have taken 20 seconds like it did every day that I wasn't
driving.

Yes, in a situation like that, I'd probably pass carefully on the
right. *But I'm a bit skeptical that such an event happens very often..

Be skeptical if you like but you should investigate life in the real world
before dismissing *anyone with a solution different than yours. *Without
the bike lane you wouldn't have passed carefully on the right because
all of the traffic turning right in front of you would have been hugging
the curb.

Vehicular cycling works some time. *Some time it doesn't.
Even Forester doesn't claim that it works everywhere.

Maybe we should take a poll and see how many people here have a commute
similar to this or who are skeptical that this exists?

I've never biked in Montreal but I've lived and biked in a lot of
cities in the US. Quite frankly I have no idea what you're talking
about. Why would drivers (in Montreal or elsewhere) have an obsessive
need to hug the right side of the lane, as opposed to staying in the
center?

I'd not saying your experience is not valid, but it's not at all
clear from what you've described why this would be the case. There's
probably something else that's going on if drivers feel the need to
hug the curb. It's just not clear to me what that is. Are the lanes
too narrow?

Per Frank Krygowski:
Yes, in a situation like that, I'd probably pass carefully on the
right. But I'm a bit skeptical that such an event happens very often.

King Of Prussia PA (USA) around 4-5 PM on weekdays. I doubt if
there any situations where 200 cars back up at a stop sign, but
on some days it's close to gridlocked. Took me over 45 minutes
to go less than 3 miles in a car once before I caught on.
--
PeteCresswell

"damyth" wrote in message ...
On Oct 20, 5:41 am, "Duane Hebert" wrote:

I've never biked in Montreal but I've lived and biked in a lot of
cities in the US. Quite frankly I have no idea what you're talking
about. Why would drivers (in Montreal or elsewhere) have an obsessive
need to hug the right side of the lane, as opposed to staying in the
center?

I think that it's that they try to keep distance from the traffic in the
left, non turning lane. When I'm driving I stay to the
left, maybe because I'm more aware of cyclists but most people
seem to queue up toward the turn that they're planning.

I'd not saying your experience is not valid, but it's not at all
clear from what you've described why this would be the case. There's
probably something else that's going on if drivers feel the need to
hug the curb. It's just not clear to me what that is. Are the lanes
too narrow?

The lanes are pretty narrow. Maybe that's it. In a lot of cases, there is no shoulder,
only a hard curb and then a sidewalk.
I don't know if this google map link will work:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

But look at Henri- Bourassa O (ouest for west) where
it crosses Boulevard Chomeday, Autoroute 13. In the
picture, it must be mid day as there's no traffic. It's pretty
much solid during rush hour. But anyway, you can
zoom in with the little guy icon. You can see that there
are 3 lanes on the overpass. They're pretty narrow. I take
the right lane and cars blow by me on my left by taking half
of the middle lane to pass.
As you get over the overpass, you can
see a stop light coming up. In the picture, there are cars and you
see that there isn't really enough space for a bike on the right.

I will take the right lane but cars will tailgate me like they do
other cars, and pass me on the left. I usually move to the right
to let them get around me, and they usually try to leave space
for me as they pass. But I'll eventually come up to the stop and
the cars will be on the curb side. I think here it's because the center
lane is usually full of trucks and the inclination is to shy away from
them.

It's not impossibly difficult. But it's one of the only ways to
get from where I live to the industrial park where I work. Some
of us take this road. Others are put off by the proximity to the
traffic and don't commute.

Looking at Pete's video, I was reminded how much wider the streets in Boston
are!

"Duane Hebert" wrote in message ...
"damyth" wrote in message ...
On Oct 20, 5:41 am, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
The lanes are pretty narrow. Maybe that's it. In a lot of cases, there is no shoulder, only a hard curb and then a sidewalk.
I don't know if this google map link will work:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

The link didn't work but if you put
Henri-Bourassa / Saint-Laurent, Montréal, Québec
in the search you'll find the overpass on Henri Bourassa
over Highway 13 toward the bottom left.

On Oct 20, 8:22*am, damyth wrote:

I'd not saying your experience is not valid, *but it's not at all
clear from what you've described why this would be the case. *There's
probably something else that's going on if drivers feel the need to
hug the curb. *It's just not clear to me what that is. *Are the lanes
too narrow?

IME, the lane might be plenty wide but when bikes are present, there
is a sudden need to hug the curb. Happens often on two-lane (each way)
streets. "Funny how that happens, isn't it?"

That's why "taking the lane" was invented. It's a survival tool.
--D-y

wrote in message ...
On Oct 20, 8:22 am, damyth wrote:

I'd not saying your experience is not valid, but it's not at all
clear from what you've described why this would be the case. There's
probably something else that's going on if drivers feel the need to
hug the curb. It's just not clear to me what that is. Are the lanes
too narrow?

IME, the lane might be plenty wide but when bikes are present, there
is a sudden need to hug the curb. Happens often on two-lane (each way)
streets. "Funny how that happens, isn't it?"

That's why "taking the lane" was invented. It's a survival tool.

Right. You don't have a choice. But the road that I sent a link to
as an example, has a speed limit of 50k/h which serves as a suggestion
to keep it below about 70. Even at 50, some less experienced cyclists
are going to be uncomfortable riding at 20 or so kph. Especially when
at rush hour, the traffic is backing up behind them and nerves are getting
short.

This is an overpass that I posted about last week where I was heading east in the right
lane and a truck was tail-gaiting me. The cars in the center lane were passing the
truck because he was only doing 35. As they came abreast of the truck,
they were jumping in the right lane to make the next right. They didn't see
me until they passed the truck and there were some close calls.

For me, it's just something that I have to deal with. The rest of my ride was
less stressful and I don't mind. I find it generally more relaxing that driving.
But I can understand why some people shy
away from that. And I can see why facilities increase comfort level of
cyclists and that increases cycling.
And if they wanted to flatten that sidewalk that no one walks on and make
it a protected bike lane, I am not going to complain.
Just saying...

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Oct 19, 12:38*pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"Radey Shouman" wrote in ...

snip

Sometimes drivers do move deliberately out of my way, I give them a
wave. *It's hard to tell if anyone purposefully obstructs me, if they do
they're pretty subtle. *No one complains audibly about being passed. *If
I were to get in line most would think me dangerously insane.

Pretty much my experience. *But Frank seems to think that if someone
obstructs me it's because they are attacking me or something ...

Nope. I'm finding it hard to believe that people are obstructed in
that situation with any regularity.

Admittedly, I don't have to deal with such dense traffic very often.
One of you guys talked about a mile backup from a stop sign, something
I've absolutely never seen. That's well over 200 cars backed up, and
at an overoptimistic five seconds per car, that's over fifteen minutes
to even make it to the stop sign.

It happens regularly, except in the summer, on Lowell road in Concord,
Mass. I believe that most drivers wait more than 15 minutes, and
shortly after they pass the stop sign they get into another long line to
enter a rotary.

When I drive to work I avoid that route, because I don't want to wait.
But it is the quickest and most pleasant way by bicycle.

Yes, in a situation like that, I'd probably pass carefully on the
right. But I'm a bit skeptical that such an event happens very often.

It's not an "event", it's regular and expected. Why are you skeptical?
Do you think the lot of us complete fabulists?

Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/19/2010 10:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
[...] In three places I worked as an engineer, the hours were normal
8 to 5[...]

What? 7 to 7 is more like normal working hours for an engineer.


You mean just a "half day" of 12 hours?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Oct 20, 6:49*am, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"damyth" wrote in ...
On Oct 20, 5:41 am, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
I've never biked in Montreal but I've lived and biked in a lot of
cities in the US. *Quite frankly I have no idea what you're talking
about. *Why would drivers (in Montreal or elsewhere) have an obsessive
need to hug the right side of the lane, as opposed to staying in the
center?

I think that it's that they try to keep distance from the traffic in the
left, non turning lane. *When I'm driving I stay to the
left, maybe because I'm more aware of cyclists but most people
seem to queue up toward the turn that they're planning. *

I'd not saying your experience is not valid, *but it's not at all
clear from what you've described why this would be the case. *There's
probably something else that's going on if drivers feel the need to
hug the curb. *It's just not clear to me what that is. *Are the lanes
too narrow?

The lanes are pretty narrow. *Maybe that's it. *In a lot of cases, there is no shoulder,
only a hard curb and then a sidewalk.
I don't know if this google map link will work:http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

But look at Henri- Bourassa O *(ouest for west) where
it crosses Boulevard Chomeday, Autoroute 13. *In the
picture, it must be mid day as there's no traffic. *It's pretty
much solid during rush hour. *But anyway, you can
zoom in with the little guy icon. *You can see that there
are 3 lanes on the overpass. *They're pretty narrow. *I take
the right lane and cars blow by me on my left by taking half
of the middle lane to pass. *
As you get over the overpass, you can
see a stop light coming up. *In the picture, there are cars and you
see that there isn't really enough space for a bike on the right.

I will take the right lane but cars will tailgate me like they do
other cars, and pass me on the left. *I usually move to the right
to let them get around me, and they usually try to leave space
for me as they pass. *But I'll eventually come up to the stop and
the cars will be on the curb side. *I think here it's because the center
lane is usually full of trucks and the inclination is to shy away from
them.

It's not impossibly difficult. *But it's one of the only ways to
get from where I live to the industrial park where I work. *Some
of us take this road. *Others are put off by the proximity to the
traffic and don't commute.

Looking at Pete's video, I was reminded how much wider the streets in Boston
are! *

I took a look at Google streets and I think I may have figured out
what you're talking about.

HBO has no visible lane markings (westbound). Period. (It does
eastbound though.) It's no wonder drivers there would be all over the
"lanes." They have no frame of reference. That's something all
citizens of Montreal, motorists and cyclists, should take up with the
DOT there. I don't think your situation is at all representative of
"other cities."

On a slightly different note, as great as Google streetview is, due
to the height of the camera and the fisheye lens, it's very hard to
judge lane width. I know it makes even wide streets here look
absolutely claustrophobic. So I don't know even if they painted lanes
on HBO, that there is sufficient width to ride bikes safely.

This thread is degenerating into some perverse contest of "worst
streets to ride." As such, it no longer has much relevance to whether
bike lanes would be a good thing or not. Regardless how you feel
about bike lanes, the first prerequisite to decent cycling is well-
maintained roads. Judging by what I see on Google streetview of
Montreal I'm rather dubious that I'd even want to drive there, never
mind bike.

On Oct 20, 9:49*am, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"damyth" wrote in ...
On Oct 20, 5:41 am, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
I've never biked in Montreal but I've lived and biked in a lot of
cities in the US. *Quite frankly I have no idea what you're talking
about. *Why would drivers (in Montreal or elsewhere) have an obsessive
need to hug the right side of the lane, as opposed to staying in the
center?

I think that it's that they try to keep distance from the traffic in the
left, non turning lane. *

I'd love to see some photos. You guys are describing situations that
I rarely, if ever, come across, and seem to be saying they're so
common that of COURSE they justify lots of bike lanes.

One difference may be that I'm perfectly willing to wait fifteen
seconds extra to get to the traffic light. I don't need to be up at
the front, I just take my turn. Usually I accelerate at least as fast
as the motorists anyway.

And maybe the difference is, I just happen to live in a cycling
paradise. But even so, it wouldn't qualify for one of LAB's "bike
friendly cities." Why? Because they define "bike friendly" as
synonymous with "lotsa bike lanes."

Ironic, eh?

- Frank Krygowski