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Landis' aerobars



 
 
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  #31  
Old June 8th 06, 06:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
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Default Landis' aerobars

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

Now, is there any way we can use this data to fight off the arguments of
the HPV set?


Guys like you are in what we call the reality-based community, people who
believe that solutions emerge from judicious study of discernible reality.
That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an empire now,
and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that
reality--judiciously, as you will--we'll act again, creating other new
realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out.
We're history's actors, and you will be left to study what we do.

For example,
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?.../29invs26inpt1


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  #32  
Old June 9th 06, 07:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
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Default Landis' aerobars

In article ,
"Robert Chung" wrote:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

Now, is there any way we can use this data to fight off the arguments of
the HPV set?


Guys like you are in what we call the reality-based community, people who
believe that solutions emerge from judicious study of discernible reality.
That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an empire now,
and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that
reality--judiciously, as you will--we'll act again, creating other new
realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out.
We're history's actors, and you will be left to study what we do.

For example,
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?.../29invs26inpt1


Chart-boy:

you flatter me in ways you can't even imagine. Just to mention the least
controversial, I'm not nearly as analytical as I pretend to be. I'm
pretty good at generating reasonable hypotheses, but pretty bad at
gathering and analyzing data to support them.

In a contest between applications, I'd choose SketchUp over R, if you
know what I mean.

The other thing, is that what I really admire about the linked article
is how the Angry Asian--not you; I mean James Huang*--got someone else
to pony up for not one but two custom-built carbon/Ti hardtails. So, did
he scam Cyclingnews, Seven, or a bit of both? Either way, kudos to them
for going along with the con.

History is kind to those who write it**,

*:
http://angryasian.com/index.php?fuseaction=main.home

** paraphrasing Churchill:
http://www.quoteworld.org/quotes/2826

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
  #33  
Old June 9th 06, 07:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
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Posts: n/a
Default Landis' aerobars

In article ,
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

History is kind to those who write it**,


** paraphrasing Churchill:
http://www.quoteworld.org/quotes/2826


Or Ben Franklin.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
  #34  
Old June 9th 06, 03:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
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Default Landis' aerobars

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

The other thing, is that what I really admire about the linked article
is how the Angry Asian--not you; I mean James Huang*--got someone else
to pony up for not one but two custom-built carbon/Ti hardtails. So, did
he scam Cyclingnews, Seven, or a bit of both? Either way, kudos to them
for going along with the con.


Well, I'm not sure kudos are deserved. From my point of view, it's sort of
vaguely related to the syndrome that I referred to above, where engineers
mostly think they can engineer out differences between two alternatives.
The funny thing is that he leaves out the one thing that would let him
actually measure a difference. It's an extraordinarily pooly conceived
experiment that someone's paying for. Maybe that was his idea all along.
In that case, kudos to him.


  #35  
Old June 9th 06, 11:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
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Posts: n/a
Default Landis' aerobars

In article ,
Howard Kveck wrote:

In article ,
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

History is kind to those who write it**,


** paraphrasing Churchill:
http://www.quoteworld.org/quotes/2826


Or Ben Franklin.


Maybe. Would you rate Franklin's autobiography above Churchill's World
War II memoirs?

You might be right, though. Wikipedia quotes a different phrasing:

"I will leave judgements on this matter to history ‹ but I will be one
of the historians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston...tween_the_wars

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
  #36  
Old June 10th 06, 12:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Landis' aerobars

In article ,
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

In article ,
Howard Kveck wrote:

In article ,
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

History is kind to those who write it**,


** paraphrasing Churchill:
http://www.quoteworld.org/quotes/2826


Or Ben Franklin.


Maybe. Would you rate Franklin's autobiography above Churchill's World
War II memoirs?

You might be right, though. Wikipedia quotes a different phrasing:

"I will leave judgements on this matter to history ‹ but I will be one
of the historians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston...tween_the_wars


Hey, there's no "maybe" about it. In rbr, all historical quotes shall be
attributed to Franklin.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
  #37  
Old June 10th 06, 05:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Huang's Sevens (was: Landis' aerobars)

In article ,
"Robert Chung" wrote:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

The other thing, is that what I really admire about the linked article
is how the Angry Asian--not you; I mean James Huang*--got someone else
to pony up for not one but two custom-built carbon/Ti hardtails. So, did
he scam Cyclingnews, Seven, or a bit of both? Either way, kudos to them
for going along with the con.


Well, I'm not sure kudos are deserved. From my point of view, it's sort of
vaguely related to the syndrome that I referred to above, where engineers
mostly think they can engineer out differences between two alternatives.
The funny thing is that he leaves out the one thing that would let him
actually measure a difference. It's an extraordinarily pooly conceived
experiment that someone's paying for. Maybe that was his idea all along.
In that case, kudos to him.


Oh, the SRM power meter. Yeah. The worst part is all they would have had
to do was change the bikes to V-brakes on the rear wheel.

So you're suggesting they're trying to isolate elements of the bikes
that cannot be easily isolated?

I have an inkling of where you're going he the real question is
whether an "optimized" 29er is faster/more fun/less filling than an
"optimized" 26er. Nobody really cares if they have the same frame
geometry, more that the chosen frame geometry is the best for that wheel
size. For that matter, the question of which is faster only matters to
the racy few. But at least it's an interesting, and probably solvable,
question.

Would you agree that the best way to do this experiment would have been
to ask Seven (or any other 26/29 hardtail maker) to build two bikes for
the same rider, using the maker's preferred geometries, make components
as similar as possible (same saddle/post/cranks/pedals/bars/brakes), and
measure some power outputs?

One thing that does attract me to Huang's experiment is the promise of
repeated trials of these two bikes over multiple courses. I have the
sense that with numerous runs, we may asymptotically approach the truth.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
  #38  
Old June 10th 06, 07:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Huang's Sevens (was: Landis' aerobars)

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article ,
"Robert Chung" wrote:

Ryan Cousineau wrote:

The other thing, is that what I really admire about the linked article
is how the Angry Asian--not you; I mean James Huang*--got someone else
to pony up for not one but two custom-built carbon/Ti hardtails. So,
did he scam Cyclingnews, Seven, or a bit of both? Either way, kudos
to them for going along with the con.


Well, I'm not sure kudos are deserved. From my point of view, it's
sort of vaguely related to the syndrome that I referred to above,
where engineers mostly think they can engineer out differences between
two alternatives. The funny thing is that he leaves out the one thing
that would let him actually measure a difference. It's an
extraordinarily pooly conceived experiment that someone's paying for.
Maybe that was his idea all along. In that case, kudos to him.


Oh, the SRM power meter. Yeah. The worst part is all they would have had
to do was change the bikes to V-brakes on the rear wheel.


Well, they could have:
1. used the SRM crank, or
2. used the Ergomo bottom bracket, or
3. used the Polar power module, or
4. considering that the bikes were --custom-made-- added conventional
brake studs and then use the PT.

Would you agree that the best way to do this experiment would have been
to ask Seven (or any other 26/29 hardtail maker) to build two bikes for
the same rider, using the maker's preferred geometries, make components
as similar as possible (same saddle/post/cranks/pedals/bars/brakes), and
measure some power outputs?


Well, that'd certainly be a better experiment. When you have head lice you
have to use a nit comb; you can't use a regular comb. When you're looking
for a small and subtle effects, you have to use a measuring device that's
sensitive enough to pick up small and subtle differences. With current
technology, only an on-bike power meter is going to be sensitive enough to
detect small effects. By leaving out the power meter, all you end up with
is yet another subjective opinion.

One thing that does attract me to Huang's experiment is the promise of
repeated trials of these two bikes over multiple courses. I have the
sense that with numerous runs, we may asymptotically approach the truth.


I'd say repeated trials over one course would suffice if it were
sufficiently varied--the SRM samples at about 1 second intervals, so as
long as you go over bumpy stuff and sandy stuff and downhills and easy and
hard climbs (that is, a normal MTB ride) you'll get enough observations to
compare. Multiple courses sounds good, but it's actually probably a red
herring. Large sample size doesn't make up for a poor experimental design.

Take a look at Dave Harris' original 26 vs. 29 comparison. The bikes were
probably too different, but other than that the experimental design was
reasonably good. I think it could have been even better if the race course
had been shorter and he'd been able to do more laps, i.e., more replicates
of the same stretches of the course.


  #39  
Old June 10th 06, 07:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Landis' aerobars

In article ,
Howard Kveck wrote:

In article ,
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

In article ,
Howard Kveck wrote:

In article ,
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

History is kind to those who write it**,

** paraphrasing Churchill:
http://www.quoteworld.org/quotes/2826

Or Ben Franklin.


Maybe. Would you rate Franklin's autobiography above Churchill's World
War II memoirs?

You might be right, though. Wikipedia quotes a different phrasing:

"I will leave judgements on this matter to history ‹ but I will be one
of the historians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston...tween_the_wars


Hey, there's no "maybe" about it. In rbr, all historical quotes shall be
attributed to Franklin.


My apologies. I will obey the protocol in the future. My only excuse is
that knowing me, I probably posted this while drunk. I can't remember.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
  #40  
Old June 10th 06, 08:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Landis' aerobars

in message , Ryan
Cousineau ') wrote:

In article ,
Howard Kveck wrote:

In article ,
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

In article
,
Howard Kveck wrote:

In article ,
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

History is kind to those who write it**,

** paraphrasing Churchill:
http://www.quoteworld.org/quotes/2826

Or Ben Franklin.

Maybe. Would you rate Franklin's autobiography above Churchill's
World War II memoirs?

You might be right, though. Wikipedia quotes a different phrasing:

"I will leave judgements on this matter to history ‹ but I will be
one of the historians."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston...tween_the_wars

Hey, there's no "maybe" about it. In rbr, all historical quotes
shall be
attributed to Franklin.


My apologies. I will obey the protocol in the future. My only excuse is
that knowing me, I probably posted this while drunk. I can't remember.


In vino veritas -- Ben Franklin.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
; ... of course nothing said here will be taken notice of by
; the W3C. The official place to be ignored is on www-style or
; www-html. -- George Lund

 




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