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Bike shop owners, wheel gurus: truing questions
John Schubert defended a previously reviewed bike in last month's
"Adventure Cycling" against accusations it had poor wheels, and his defense raised some questions in my mind. He wrote, "It's customary for spoked wheels to go slightly out of true in the first days of riding, as the spokes stretch and bed into their seats in the hub. ... The biggest single reason that bike shops call for a thirty-day check is to true the wheels after this period of initial use." Now in my very limited experience, after I've built wheels I'll check them after a few days to see if a spoke has loosened, and if so, the cause is usually obvious: a nipple unscrewed. Have I missed something? Have the spokes really stretched and bedded in? Next, again in my limited experience, the thirty day or 100 mile checks I've seen have concentrated on adjusting the derailleurs and brakes. How many shops check the trueness (and tension, as he goes on to describe) of the wheels during these checks? Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from time to time." I've seen a few posts here from people saying they never touch their well-built, hand-trued, wheels. Is this a reasonable expectation? Or do all wheels need to be touched up periodically? (Assuming the wheels aren't wrecked or violently twisted in wheel-eating ruts.) Are machine-built wheels so different from hand-built wheels that one requires constant maintenance while the other is trouble-free? Pat |
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#2
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Pat Lamb wrote: John Schubert defended a previously reviewed bike in last month's "Adventure Cycling" against accusations it had poor wheels, and his defense raised some questions in my mind. He wrote, "It's customary for spoked wheels to go slightly out of true in the first days of riding, as the spokes stretch and bed into their seats in the hub. ... The biggest single reason that bike shops call for a thirty-day check is to true the wheels after this period of initial use." This is only true for poorly built wheels. Steel spokes don't stretch or bed into any seats. A good wheelbuilder will stress relieve and otherwise stress the wheel, take out any spoke windup, before it goes onto a bicycle. Now in my very limited experience, after I've built wheels I'll check them after a few days to see if a spoke has loosened, and if so, the cause is usually obvious: a nipple unscrewed. Have I missed something? Have the spokes really stretched and bedded in? No, the tension keeps all tight. If you have a spoke loosen w/o any obvious smack to the rim which causes it to be pushed in or 'dented' or otherwise deformed. The tension and the windup and stress relieving hasn't been accomplished.If the tension of the right on the rear isn'ty proper, the left side will slacken to the point of unscrewing the nipp. Next, again in my limited experience, the thirty day or 100 mile checks I've seen have concentrated on adjusting the derailleurs and brakes. How many shops check the trueness (and tension, as he goes on to describe) of the wheels during these checks? We check the wheels we build but seldom have to do anything unless the guy has pilled thru a pothole or something. Remember most bicycles outta a box have been buult by somebody that has no clue when it comes to wheels, wheelbuilding, etc. Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from time to time." 2200 mikes isn't particularly high milage..less than 100 miles per month, less than 25 miles per week. Not trying to blow me horn, but I ride more than that per day, 12 months of the year(5 days per week), BUT well built wheels need very little attention. Even 'machine built' wheels, if trued, rounded, dished, tensioned and stress relieved when new will work just fine. It is most often the build that makes for lousey wheels, not the components. I've seen a few posts here from people saying they never touch their well-built, hand-trued, wheels. Is this a reasonable expectation? Or do all wheels need to be touched up periodically? (Assuming the wheels aren't wrecked or violently twisted in wheel-eating ruts.) Are machine-built wheels so different from hand-built wheels that one requires constant maintenance while the other is trouble-free? See above. If well designed for the rider, made well, perhaps a 1/2 turn of a couple of nipps every once and a while. But when I glue on a new tire, on the truing stand, i look at them, but seldom do anything. Pat |
#3
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Strictly anecdotal - take it for what it's worth.
My last bike: a CrMo touring frame with hand-built wheels (Araya alloy rims, Ultegra hubs) 14 years,10,000+miles, NEVER had the wheels go out of true, never a loose spoke, never needed to touch them. *** *** *** My dad had a rear wheel rebuilt at a *highly suspect* LBS. They have a horrible reputation locally but they're the closest LBS to my parents and I can't convince them to go elsewhere. His wheel is out of true and popping spokes in the first year of use. Similar componentry to my bike so I gotta believe it isn't the componentry, it's who was swinging the tools. He rides gently on well-surfaced roads, never crashes or otherwise abuses his bike. Chris "Pat Lamb" wrote in message ... John Schubert defended a previously reviewed bike in last month's "Adventure Cycling" against accusations it had poor wheels, and his defense raised some questions in my mind. He wrote, "It's customary for spoked wheels to go slightly out of true in the first days of riding, as the spokes stretch and bed into their seats in the hub. ... The biggest single reason that bike shops call for a thirty-day check is to true the wheels after this period of initial use." Now in my very limited experience, after I've built wheels I'll check them after a few days to see if a spoke has loosened, and if so, the cause is usually obvious: a nipple unscrewed. Have I missed something? Have the spokes really stretched and bedded in? Next, again in my limited experience, the thirty day or 100 mile checks I've seen have concentrated on adjusting the derailleurs and brakes. How many shops check the trueness (and tension, as he goes on to describe) of the wheels during these checks? Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from time to time." I've seen a few posts here from people saying they never touch their well-built, hand-trued, wheels. Is this a reasonable expectation? Or do all wheels need to be touched up periodically? (Assuming the wheels aren't wrecked or violently twisted in wheel-eating ruts.) Are machine-built wheels so different from hand-built wheels that one requires constant maintenance while the other is trouble-free? Pat |
#4
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Pat Lamb wrote:
I've seen a few posts here from people saying they never touch their well-built, hand-trued, wheels. Is this a reasonable expectation? Or do all wheels need to be touched up periodically? No, good hand built wheels do not need any attention until the rims wear out or you twist them in a storm drain. The key is to have high spoke tension and to get all the stretching and bending done during the wheelbuild, not on the road. |
#5
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Pat Lamb writes:
John Schubert defended a previously reviewed bike in last month's "Adventure Cycling" against accusations it had poor wheels, and his defense raised some questions in my mind. He wrote, "It's customary for spoked wheels to go slightly out of true in the first days of riding, as the spokes stretch and bed into their seats in the hub. ... The biggest single reason that bike shops call for a thirty-day check is to true the wheels after this period of initial use." I guess Schubert is still covering for poorly built wheels, probably machine built ones that had no manual follow-up. As has been discussed here at length, the effects to which he attributes loss of wheel alignment are non existent with a properly tensioned and stress relieved wheel. Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from time to time." The hidden truth behind this is that an active rider puts on about 10,000 miles per year and in that time probably encounters a couple of close calls in which the bicycle slides sideways a bit. Such events typically cause a wow in a wheel that is obvious and is usually straightened at that time. Other than that there is no reason for the wheel to become untrue, all of it operating in the elastic stress region of the materials (rim, hub, and spokes). I've seen a few posts here from people saying they never touch their well-built, hand-trued, wheels. Is this a reasonable expectation? This is a reasonable expectation. Or do all wheels need to be touched up periodically? (Assuming the wheels aren't wrecked or violently twisted in wheel-eating ruts.) Are machine-built wheels so different from hand-built wheels that one requires constant maintenance while the other is trouble-free? Machine built wheels, until now, have had a tension problem in that tight spokes adjusted with the typical 1/4 turn of the nipple no longer move in the threads but only only twist. Therefore final truing is stopped before that (proper tension) is reached. I am curious to see at InterBike if the wheel building manufacturers have instituted the simple design change I have badgered them about these past years to fix that. Jobst Brandt |
#6
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On 4 Aug 2005 08:53:15 -0700, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
wrote: Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from time to time." 2200 mikes isn't particularly high milage..less than 100 miles per month, less than 25 miles per week. Not trying to blow me horn, but I ride more than that per day, 12 months of the year(5 days per week), BUT well built wheels need very little attention. Even 'machine built' wheels, if trued, rounded, dished, tensioned and stress relieved when new will work just fine. It is most often the build that makes for lousey wheels, not the components. I may not know much about spokes but I know about math. 2200/12 is 183 miles per month. Still not that much. I average around 300 per month. |
#7
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Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Pat Lamb wrote: Next, again in my limited experience, the thirty day or 100 mile checks I've seen have concentrated on adjusting the derailleurs and brakes. How many shops check the trueness (and tension, as he goes on to describe) of the wheels during these checks? We check the wheels we build but seldom have to do anything unless the guy has pilled thru a pothole or something. Remember most bicycles outta a box have been buult by somebody that has no clue when it comes to wheels, wheelbuilding, etc. Yeah, I'm coming around to that viewpoint. So you do check the wheels? Confirms what I thought -- your shop has to be 3 (or more) sigmas above the mean. Finally, he wrote, "A high-mileage rider [2200 miles per year] ... can expect to need her wheels trued once or twice a year. ... I ride mostly on machine-built wheels ... and touch them up with a spoke wrench from time to time." 2200 mikes isn't particularly high milage..less than 100 miles per month, less than 25 miles per week. Not trying to blow me horn, but I ride more than that per day, 12 months of the year(5 days per week), BUT well built wheels need very little attention. Even 'machine built' wheels, if trued, rounded, dished, tensioned and stress relieved when new will work just fine. It is most often the build that makes for lousey wheels, not the components. What's a factor of two among friends? Still, for an organization that promotes long rides, like their flagship 4,247.5 mile transamerica ride, calling 2200 annual miles "high-mileage" seems a bit, err, off. Just so I'm clear on things, though, are wheels straight out of the machine typically trued, rounded, dished, tensioned, and stress relieved properly, or does the LBS or new owner need to double-check? Pat |
#8
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#10
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Pat Lamb wrote:
Reading between the lines, can I infer machine built wheels need to be touched up before riding? As a minimum, they need to be brought up to proper tension, and stress relieved. Art Harris |
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