OT rant aargh!

Greg P. scrawled in bright red lipstick:
"Penny S" wrote in message
...
the new season of survivor... a woman scout leader, I'm sorry but
how does a woman teach boys to be men? I guess I've been too
conditioned by my son's troop who's attitude is "mom's butt out out
and let your son become a man under the leadership of men and
boys..." ( and I agree btw)

I agree with you, too bad you're not single ... but neither am I ;/

BTW, you share the same views on such topics as Ashley Judd (whom I
find very beautiful and would love to meet!).

How old is/are your son(s)? And what kind of troop is it? Boy scouts?
Camping?

getting waaay ot here now, sorry I even brought it up.

maybe you can explain it ...how mothers nuture and then turn the sons over
to the men (not overgrown boys g) for final teaching. It's an old
anthropological model that goes back thousands of years, fairly culturally
universal. I bleive that the reason our society has so many overgrown boys
and not men is the lack of the traditional or symbolic initiation into
manhood etc., in our culture.

My son's on his way to Eagle (life) with a very hard core, old school troop
where no moms run committees or plan fundraising. The motto is never do for
a boy what he can do for himself, and the older boys teach and mentor the
younger ones. They all hold each other accountable, with a venerable old man
who's been doing this for 30 years or so. I'm proud of the way my son is
becoming a man.. responsible, accountable, polite and thoughtful. He led a
group of 25 on a 85 mile backpack through Banff this summer.

Penny

"Penny S" wrote in message
...
| getting waaay ot here now, sorry I even brought it up.

Why? Discussions like this take off some of the overall dullness of some of
the other threads.

| maybe you can explain it ...how mothers nuture and then turn the sons over
| to the men (not overgrown boys g) for final teaching. It's an old
| anthropological model that goes back thousands of years, fairly culturally
| universal. I bleive that the reason our society has so many overgrown
boys
| and not men is the lack of the traditional or symbolic initiation into
| manhood etc., in our culture.

Yes indeed. There is nothing to explain really, you have it all figured out.
The same thing can be said about mothers and daughters. Most girls who are
raised solely by masculine influence end up tom-boys, no? When my
stepdaughter got her first *ahem* period and asked me about *ahem ahem*
penis's, I turned to stone and told her that her mom would tell her all
about it (which I made her do). I know that's a poor example, but generally
to teach a sex on growing up (confidence, leadership, etc) one should be of
the same sex (as their experience far exceeds that of the opposite's).

| My son's on his way to Eagle (life) with a very hard core, old school
troop
| where no moms run committees or plan fundraising. The motto is never do
for
| a boy what he can do for himself, and the older boys teach and mentor the
| younger ones. They all hold each other accountable, with a venerable old
man
| who's been doing this for 30 years or so. I'm proud of the way my son is
| becoming a man.. responsible, accountable, polite and thoughtful. He led
a
| group of 25 on a 85 mile backpack through Banff this summer.

Good lord that's an excellent lead. I have the same plans for when I have a
son (have a daughter ;P).

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:33:25 -0700, Slacker penned:

Are you a feminist?
--
Slacker


I like to consider myself an "individualist" ...

Sorry for the cop-out answer, but ... I used to think "feminist" meant
man-hater, and I know better than that now, but the definition of
feminism is still pretty convoluted and I'm not sure I do agree with
everything that feminism means ... If I understood my "philosophy of
physics" class in college, feminism also means "the realization that
people's backgrounds influence the way that they interpret data," and
that sounds pretty true but I don't think has much to do with what most
of us think of as "feminism."

--
monique

My pointless ramblings:
http://www.bounceswoosh.org/phorum/index.php?f=6

"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message
...
| Or to ask it differently: If men and women are different, why do you
| think that boys need to learn to be men by watching boys and men? I
| mean, if they're inherently "man-like," they will be "man-like" with or
| without social stimuli, right?

Not necessarily. 90% of the peers I grew up with began to act and think as
the sex that brought them up. (From what I've encountered and seen): Boys
handled mostly by women create a more sensitive, defensive, less
self-assured man (in terms of leadership), and girls raised by men usually
are more up-front, offensive, and self-assured.

But that is only what I've encountered. I know that if a woman is strong (I
don't mean physically), she can raise a boy to become a strong man just as
another man might have...or even better. It all depends on *who* is the
mentor.

Maybe they don't need to be taught to be "men," and instead need to be
taught to be people?

There's a difference?


That's kind of my point ...

LOL Monique-- I think you're missing the point. This was supposed to be a
rant. There's really no reason to argue or offer counter points. IIRC,
according to Ranter's Rules & Regulations (RRR) only people who agree with
the ranter are allowed to throw their two cents in. 2 cents + 1 cent = 3
cents... hmm...

-John Morgan
--
"I tried lube, careful prying, careful digging and even not so careful
digging. Little chunks of rubber." --Sad Bob

You and my "ball-and-chain" would really get along =(

Whenever I ask for her opinion on politics, law, etc, her answer is "I'm a
woman and my opinions are my own". But that's only when she's in a mood =p

"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message
...
| I like to consider myself an "individualist" ...
|
| Sorry for the cop-out answer, but ... I used to think "feminist" meant
| man-hater, and I know better than that now, but the definition of
| feminism is still pretty convoluted and I'm not sure I do agree with
| everything that feminism means ... If I understood my "philosophy of
| physics" class in college, feminism also means "the realization that
| people's backgrounds influence the way that they interpret data," and
| that sounds pretty true but I don't think has much to do with what most
| of us think of as "feminism."
|
| --
| monique
|
| My pointless ramblings:
| http://www.bounceswoosh.org/phorum/index.php?f=6

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:42:56 GMT, Greg P. penned:

Yes indeed. There is nothing to explain really, you have it all figured out.
The same thing can be said about mothers and daughters. Most girls who are
raised solely by masculine influence end up tom-boys, no? When my
stepdaughter got her first *ahem* period and asked me about *ahem ahem*
penis's, I turned to stone and told her that her mom would tell her all
about it (which I made her do). I know that's a poor example, but generally
to teach a sex on growing up (confidence, leadership, etc) one should be of
the same sex (as their experience far exceeds that of the opposite's).



Whoa whoa whoa. Are you saying that being a tom-boy is a bad thing?

Anyway, I had both parents around as very strong influences as a child
and throughout my life, and I was still a tom-boy who preferred hanging
out with the guys. Sure, you said "most," but I'd *love* to see any
statistical data to back up that claim. I've never heard of a study of
such things.


--
monique

My pointless ramblings:
http://www.bounceswoosh.org/phorum/index.php?f=6

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:47:48 GMT, Greg P. penned:
"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message
...
| Or to ask it differently: If men and women are different, why do you
| think that boys need to learn to be men by watching boys and men? I
| mean, if they're inherently "man-like," they will be "man-like" with or
| without social stimuli, right?

Not necessarily. 90% of the peers I grew up with began to act and think as
the sex that brought them up. (From what I've encountered and seen): Boys
handled mostly by women create a more sensitive, defensive, less
self-assured man (in terms of leadership), and girls raised by men usually
are more up-front, offensive, and self-assured.

But that is only what I've encountered. I know that if a woman is strong (I
don't mean physically), she can raise a boy to become a strong man just as
another man might have...or even better. It all depends on *who* is the
mentor.

What you're saying is kind of disturbing to me, in conjunction with the
original post, because what it comes across as is that you want to
maintain the above qualities that you describe as gender-specific ...
despite the fact that they are, according to you, developed, not innate.

If you believe that a single man raising a girl produces a more
self-assured girl, why on god's green earth would you ever *not* want
that?

I have some other thoughts, but I think I'd better keep my fingers
still.

--
monique

My pointless ramblings:
http://www.bounceswoosh.org/phorum/index.php?f=6

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:51:37 -0700, John Morgan penned:

LOL Monique-- I think you're missing the point. This was supposed to be a
rant. There's really no reason to argue or offer counter points. IIRC,
according to Ranter's Rules & Regulations (RRR) only people who agree with
the ranter are allowed to throw their two cents in. 2 cents + 1 cent = 3
cents... hmm...

-John Morgan

"Sheer entertainment value" doesn't count as a reason anymore?

Poo!

--
monique

My pointless ramblings:
http://www.bounceswoosh.org/phorum/index.php?f=6

"Monique Y. Herman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:51:37 -0700, John Morgan
penned:

LOL Monique-- I think you're missing the point. This was supposed to be
a
rant. There's really no reason to argue or offer counter points. IIRC,
according to Ranter's Rules & Regulations (RRR) only people who agree
with
the ranter are allowed to throw their two cents in. 2 cents + 1 cent =
3
cents... hmm...

-John Morgan

"Sheer entertainment value" doesn't count as a reason anymore?

I'm so bored right now, I'm entertaining myself with Pete.