Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 2018-11-26 16:27, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 2:12:22 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 13:26, Duane wrote:
On 26/11/2018 4:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 12:28:11 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-11-25 17:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-8, Sir
Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 4:24:40 PM UTC-5,
jbeattie wrote:

[...]


And for Sir, you can't flip HG -- at least not without
grinding. I just went and tried flipping a cog from a
junk freewheel sitting in my basement. It's a no-go.
I'll go try again just to make sure I'm not missing
anything.



-- Jay Beattie.

I'm NOT talking about flipping a HG cog onto a UG
freehub. I'm talking about flipping a HG cog on a HG
freehub.


Which can be done. The HG cogs I modded to go on UG hubs can
be mounted both ways, also on HG hubs.


CHeers

I can't get a HG cassette cog to fit on a HG freehub body
if I flip the cog. The notches are not symmetrical.


After a little dance with a Dremel you can.

Yes, if you grind off the largest tab, you can do practically
anything -- with your slop-fit sprocket transmitting torque
through probably 10% less surface area with the high gear
stopped off because its worn out. And hey, why not use four
less spokes on each wheel, no bar tape, one brake, a hose clamp
in lieu of a proper headset nut, etc., etc.


You aren't supposed to grind off all of it. Besides, even if you
did it wouldn't make a difference.

I was originally talking about flipping a HG sprocket on a HG freehub
body. If you grind down the wide tab and flip it over, you've lost
contact surface. You would not lose contact surface on a UG body --
you would just have a worn-out threaded sprocket to contend with.


On one out of nine splines. Big deal. I am not trying to win the Tour de
France or hammer up Passo Del Mortirolo with several growlers on the
rear rack.


And if having a six-speed dumpster-bike is O.K., why on earth
are you complaining about a little growling coming from your
new pie-plate sprocket? You should be happy if the wheels
turn. And you still can't fit fenders with reasonably-sized
tires, so enjoy the rainy season.


Of course this bike can have fenders, the frame is even prepared
for that. Never saw the need though. On the rear the top connector
of the panniers acts as a fender.

You said you could barely fit 25mm tires on that bike. No?


Yep. Good enough for the rides I do with this bike. Actually, since I
now have a derailer extender which allows me to ease off on the B-screw
I can move the wheel farther back and possibly mount 28mm tire. No
hardcore CX tires but maybe this kind:

https://www.amazon.com/Kenda-Karvs-F.../dp/B008823EB4


Regarding dumpster bikes you'd be surprised for how much money some
of these old frames go. I will never trade my Reynolds steel frame
for a plastics bike.

Then you should treat it with respect.


Respect to me is to use a technical object to the fullest. Including
hard use and this bike has seen plenty of that. Forest autobahns and all
that.


... BTW, have you tried a modern
CF bike? A decent modern aluminum road frame? I've owned five custom
steel frames, many aluminum frames and now CF bikes. I would take a
first generation Cannondale over my '70s-80s custom steel frames. In
fact, that's just what I did. I broke a custom Columbus SP racing
frame and got a quick Cannondale replacement frame from a local shop
to continue the racing season. That was 1984, and I liked it better
than the bike it replaced. I love riding my Emonda, and the old CAAD
9 still brings a smile to my face, but that belongs to my son now.
I'm sure I would enjoy a nice modern steel frame, too, but I'm happy
with the current line-up.


I have ridden CF and aluminum road bikes. My MTB is aluminum because
when I bought it they all were. My favorite is still steel. As for CF I
am pretty sure I'd break it.



Typically if I start off on a decent lenght ride, I like to have
a reasonable expectation of getting back without having to try to
rebuild the bike on the side of the road. To hack my cassette to
save one cog makes no sense to me. Frugality is a good thing for
the planet and all but this is sounding close to OCD.


I've never had any issue whatsoever with hacked cassettes. Or any
other hack for that matter. What I had problems with was
"professionally" made stuff.

You need better OE. I had an old touring bike with a threaded headset
that would come loose, so I got a Gorilla Headlock -- which also
eliminated the need to carry a HS wrench on tours. No hose clamps.


Yeah, I can surely buy a new headset. However, the hose clamp took
minutes to apply and does the job. As Pa Kettle said, I'll get to it.
One of these days.


In fact, the hose-clamped steerer set on my road bike holds up
better than the newfangled modern one on my MT which needs
occasional adjustment.

The compression nut and stem clamp serve the same purpose as a hose
clamp and have more contact area. If you have issues, then it is
because of inadequate torque or a poorly faced stem or spacer.


I am by far not the only one who had to constantly re-tighten the
Shimano 600 headset no matter how hard you torque the counter nut. Well,
not anymore. On smooth asphalt it's all ok but it got loose on gravel
roads, rough surface roads or dirt roads.

Nowadays you see that problem less and less but that's because hardly
anyone has Shimano 600 anymore.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 7:51:12 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 16:27, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 2:12:22 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 13:26, Duane wrote:
On 26/11/2018 4:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 12:28:11 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-11-25 17:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-8, Sir
Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 4:24:40 PM UTC-5,
jbeattie wrote:

[...]


And for Sir, you can't flip HG -- at least not without
grinding. I just went and tried flipping a cog from a
junk freewheel sitting in my basement. It's a no-go.
I'll go try again just to make sure I'm not missing
anything.



-- Jay Beattie.

I'm NOT talking about flipping a HG cog onto a UG
freehub. I'm talking about flipping a HG cog on a HG
freehub.


Which can be done. The HG cogs I modded to go on UG hubs can
be mounted both ways, also on HG hubs.


CHeers

I can't get a HG cassette cog to fit on a HG freehub body
if I flip the cog. The notches are not symmetrical.


After a little dance with a Dremel you can.

Yes, if you grind off the largest tab, you can do practically
anything -- with your slop-fit sprocket transmitting torque
through probably 10% less surface area with the high gear
stopped off because its worn out. And hey, why not use four
less spokes on each wheel, no bar tape, one brake, a hose clamp
in lieu of a proper headset nut, etc., etc.


You aren't supposed to grind off all of it. Besides, even if you
did it wouldn't make a difference.

I was originally talking about flipping a HG sprocket on a HG freehub
body. If you grind down the wide tab and flip it over, you've lost
contact surface. You would not lose contact surface on a UG body --
you would just have a worn-out threaded sprocket to contend with.


On one out of nine splines. Big deal. I am not trying to win the Tour de
France or hammer up Passo Del Mortirolo with several growlers on the
rear rack.


And if having a six-speed dumpster-bike is O.K., why on earth
are you complaining about a little growling coming from your
new pie-plate sprocket? You should be happy if the wheels
turn. And you still can't fit fenders with reasonably-sized
tires, so enjoy the rainy season.


Of course this bike can have fenders, the frame is even prepared
for that. Never saw the need though. On the rear the top connector
of the panniers acts as a fender.

You said you could barely fit 25mm tires on that bike. No?


Yep. Good enough for the rides I do with this bike. Actually, since I
now have a derailer extender which allows me to ease off on the B-screw
I can move the wheel farther back and possibly mount 28mm tire. No
hardcore CX tires but maybe this kind:

https://www.amazon.com/Kenda-Karvs-F.../dp/B008823EB4


Regarding dumpster bikes you'd be surprised for how much money some
of these old frames go. I will never trade my Reynolds steel frame
for a plastics bike.

Then you should treat it with respect.


Respect to me is to use a technical object to the fullest. Including
hard use and this bike has seen plenty of that. Forest autobahns and all
that.


... BTW, have you tried a modern
CF bike? A decent modern aluminum road frame? I've owned five custom
steel frames, many aluminum frames and now CF bikes. I would take a
first generation Cannondale over my '70s-80s custom steel frames. In
fact, that's just what I did. I broke a custom Columbus SP racing
frame and got a quick Cannondale replacement frame from a local shop
to continue the racing season. That was 1984, and I liked it better
than the bike it replaced. I love riding my Emonda, and the old CAAD
9 still brings a smile to my face, but that belongs to my son now.
I'm sure I would enjoy a nice modern steel frame, too, but I'm happy
with the current line-up.


I have ridden CF and aluminum road bikes. My MTB is aluminum because
when I bought it they all were. My favorite is still steel. As for CF I
am pretty sure I'd break it.



Typically if I start off on a decent lenght ride, I like to have
a reasonable expectation of getting back without having to try to
rebuild the bike on the side of the road. To hack my cassette to
save one cog makes no sense to me. Frugality is a good thing for
the planet and all but this is sounding close to OCD.


I've never had any issue whatsoever with hacked cassettes. Or any
other hack for that matter. What I had problems with was
"professionally" made stuff.

You need better OE. I had an old touring bike with a threaded headset
that would come loose, so I got a Gorilla Headlock -- which also
eliminated the need to carry a HS wrench on tours. No hose clamps.


Yeah, I can surely buy a new headset. However, the hose clamp took
minutes to apply and does the job. As Pa Kettle said, I'll get to it.
One of these days.


In fact, the hose-clamped steerer set on my road bike holds up
better than the newfangled modern one on my MT which needs
occasional adjustment.

The compression nut and stem clamp serve the same purpose as a hose
clamp and have more contact area. If you have issues, then it is
because of inadequate torque or a poorly faced stem or spacer.


I am by far not the only one who had to constantly re-tighten the
Shimano 600 headset no matter how hard you torque the counter nut. Well,
not anymore. On smooth asphalt it's all ok but it got loose on gravel
roads, rough surface roads or dirt roads.

Nowadays you see that problem less and less but that's because hardly
anyone has Shimano 600 anymore.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I bought a used Cannondale early on and it was so stiff that I had such severe pain that I thought I'd have to stop and ask at someone's house if I could use their phone. I NEVER had such pain on any of my steel frame bicycles. I got rid of that Cannondale and kept my Tange Infinity steel frame bike for those rides.

I have a Shimano 600 EX headset on one of my bikes and I have a scalloped Dura Ace AX headset on another of my bikes. Neither of those headsets keep coming loose no matter how rough the road is that I ride on. I even ride gravel roads and some forest trails on those bikes and still don't have a problem with things loosening up. If I did have a headset that kept coming loose I'd figure that the threads on it are worn or damaged somehow. I just can not see the need to use a hose clamp to keep a headset nut where it's supposed to be.

All the steel bikes I do own do whatever job I need them to and they do it in a manner and time constraint that's acceptable for ME. Therefore I do not see the need to tosss them and get a new aluminium or carbon fiber frameset.

Other peoples' needs/wants might vary and thus they need/want aluminium or carbon fiber for their framesets.

Cheers

On 11/26/2018 4:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 14:01, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
November 26, 2018 at 4:26:53 PM UTC-5, duane wrote:
Snipped
-and then snipped more-

Out of curiosity, what are UG cassette bodies? The UG
cassettes I had, even before a hack, consisted only of cogs,
spacers and three screws that held it all together (but
which weren't really needed and removed by me).

UG system has symmetric splined sprockets (which may be
flipped over!) and secured by one threaded high gear sprocket.

HG system has an asymmetric spline (only fits one way)
sprockets are secured by a lockring next to the high gear
sprocket.

Screws, rivets, pins or whatever between sprockets assist
assembly and have no other function.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 08:56, wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 4:05:29 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog), a
new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb hills
much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a 7-speed)
there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under heavy load.
Maybe from the chain because with a derailer setup it'll never run
100% straight. Hard to say. The noise appears briefly twice per
pedal crank rotation and always on the power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I
looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth exit
grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest it's really weird
because that has an almost perfect chain line when on the small
chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe it'll
go away over time?

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

It just occurred to me Joerg - didn't the older 8-speed SunRace
cassettes come with SR or Shimano spacings You can look at
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/k9.shtml


I have (mostly) used a set of spacers from my old UG cassettes. That way
I got seven of the eight cogs mounted on the freehub. Had to scarifice
the 15T. On a hilly ride yesterday that felt good but I'll see on a
longer ride in the flatlands later this week if the 15T should go back
in and maybe the 28T taken out instead.

40T in back sure feels good on some of these here hills.

BTW, together with a buddy we found the cause and I think someone here
had mentioned it: The chain rings are a bit worn. The smaller one more
so and it has developed slight shark fin tips on the teeth. This causes
the chain to be picked up at the bottom during high torque, resulting in
chain slap and, in consequence, derailer "dancing". Unfortunately that
chain ring can't be flipped around easily for a 2nd life so I need to
find a new one. For now I'll file down the shark fins a bit.

Hey, I guessed it! Is there a prize?

Question: Does anyone now whether it's ok to buy a 30mm BCD chain ring
for 10-speed chains that's a bit narrower and run a 7-speed chain on it?
I guess it'll "walk" a bit more sideways that usual, not sure if that
matters much.

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 5:08:17 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 7:51:12 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 16:27, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 2:12:22 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 13:26, Duane wrote:
On 26/11/2018 4:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 12:28:11 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-11-25 17:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-8, Sir
Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 4:24:40 PM UTC-5,
jbeattie wrote:

[...]


And for Sir, you can't flip HG -- at least not without
grinding. I just went and tried flipping a cog from a
junk freewheel sitting in my basement. It's a no-go.
I'll go try again just to make sure I'm not missing
anything.



-- Jay Beattie.

I'm NOT talking about flipping a HG cog onto a UG
freehub. I'm talking about flipping a HG cog on a HG
freehub.


Which can be done. The HG cogs I modded to go on UG hubs can
be mounted both ways, also on HG hubs.


CHeers

I can't get a HG cassette cog to fit on a HG freehub body
if I flip the cog. The notches are not symmetrical.


After a little dance with a Dremel you can.

Yes, if you grind off the largest tab, you can do practically
anything -- with your slop-fit sprocket transmitting torque
through probably 10% less surface area with the high gear
stopped off because its worn out. And hey, why not use four
less spokes on each wheel, no bar tape, one brake, a hose clamp
in lieu of a proper headset nut, etc., etc.


You aren't supposed to grind off all of it. Besides, even if you
did it wouldn't make a difference.

I was originally talking about flipping a HG sprocket on a HG freehub
body. If you grind down the wide tab and flip it over, you've lost
contact surface. You would not lose contact surface on a UG body --
you would just have a worn-out threaded sprocket to contend with.


On one out of nine splines. Big deal. I am not trying to win the Tour de
France or hammer up Passo Del Mortirolo with several growlers on the
rear rack.


And if having a six-speed dumpster-bike is O.K., why on earth
are you complaining about a little growling coming from your
new pie-plate sprocket? You should be happy if the wheels
turn. And you still can't fit fenders with reasonably-sized
tires, so enjoy the rainy season.


Of course this bike can have fenders, the frame is even prepared
for that. Never saw the need though. On the rear the top connector
of the panniers acts as a fender.

You said you could barely fit 25mm tires on that bike. No?


Yep. Good enough for the rides I do with this bike. Actually, since I
now have a derailer extender which allows me to ease off on the B-screw
I can move the wheel farther back and possibly mount 28mm tire. No
hardcore CX tires but maybe this kind:

https://www.amazon.com/Kenda-Karvs-F.../dp/B008823EB4


Regarding dumpster bikes you'd be surprised for how much money some
of these old frames go. I will never trade my Reynolds steel frame
for a plastics bike.

Then you should treat it with respect.


Respect to me is to use a technical object to the fullest. Including
hard use and this bike has seen plenty of that. Forest autobahns and all
that.


... BTW, have you tried a modern
CF bike? A decent modern aluminum road frame? I've owned five custom
steel frames, many aluminum frames and now CF bikes. I would take a
first generation Cannondale over my '70s-80s custom steel frames. In
fact, that's just what I did. I broke a custom Columbus SP racing
frame and got a quick Cannondale replacement frame from a local shop
to continue the racing season. That was 1984, and I liked it better
than the bike it replaced. I love riding my Emonda, and the old CAAD
9 still brings a smile to my face, but that belongs to my son now.
I'm sure I would enjoy a nice modern steel frame, too, but I'm happy
with the current line-up.


I have ridden CF and aluminum road bikes. My MTB is aluminum because
when I bought it they all were. My favorite is still steel. As for CF I
am pretty sure I'd break it.



Typically if I start off on a decent lenght ride, I like to have
a reasonable expectation of getting back without having to try to
rebuild the bike on the side of the road. To hack my cassette to
save one cog makes no sense to me. Frugality is a good thing for
the planet and all but this is sounding close to OCD.


I've never had any issue whatsoever with hacked cassettes. Or any
other hack for that matter. What I had problems with was
"professionally" made stuff.

You need better OE. I had an old touring bike with a threaded headset
that would come loose, so I got a Gorilla Headlock -- which also
eliminated the need to carry a HS wrench on tours. No hose clamps.


Yeah, I can surely buy a new headset. However, the hose clamp took
minutes to apply and does the job. As Pa Kettle said, I'll get to it.
One of these days.


In fact, the hose-clamped steerer set on my road bike holds up
better than the newfangled modern one on my MT which needs
occasional adjustment.

The compression nut and stem clamp serve the same purpose as a hose
clamp and have more contact area. If you have issues, then it is
because of inadequate torque or a poorly faced stem or spacer.


I am by far not the only one who had to constantly re-tighten the
Shimano 600 headset no matter how hard you torque the counter nut. Well,
not anymore. On smooth asphalt it's all ok but it got loose on gravel
roads, rough surface roads or dirt roads.

Nowadays you see that problem less and less but that's because hardly
anyone has Shimano 600 anymore.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I bought a used Cannondale early on and it was so stiff that I had such severe pain that I thought I'd have to stop and ask at someone's house if I could use their phone. I NEVER had such pain on any of my steel frame bicycles. I got rid of that Cannondale and kept my Tange Infinity steel frame bike for those rides.

I have a Shimano 600 EX headset on one of my bikes and I have a scalloped Dura Ace AX headset on another of my bikes. Neither of those headsets keep coming loose no matter how rough the road is that I ride on. I even ride gravel roads and some forest trails on those bikes and still don't have a problem with things loosening up. If I did have a headset that kept coming loose I'd figure that the threads on it are worn or damaged somehow. I just can not see the need to use a hose clamp to keep a headset nut where it's supposed to be.

All the steel bikes I do own do whatever job I need them to and they do it in a manner and time constraint that's acceptable for ME. Therefore I do not see the need to tosss them and get a new aluminium or carbon fiber frameset.

Other peoples' needs/wants might vary and thus they need/want aluminium or carbon fiber for their framesets.


Yah, I'm not prescribing frames. People should ride what they want, but the generic rejection of "plastic bikes" is dopey.

I broke all my steel frames and got tired of re-brazing them. I broke a bunch of Cannondales, too -- but they gave me new ones. My current commuter CX bike is the replacement for a bike I bought fifteen years ago. My son's CAAD 9 is in effect a replacement for a Cannondale 2.8 I bought in 1991 (with a few frames in between). Cannondale refused to warranty my 1987 Black Lightning (which replaced my original 1984 frame) because it just "wore out." Cannondale's generosity is not unlimited.

As for headsets loosening, I was responding to Joerg's comment about his MTB, which I assume has a threadless headset. If that is loosening, it shouldn't. My Dura Ace and 600EX headsets were also great and didn't loosen, but the Deore 1/4 ball headset on my old T1000 did loosen, so I used a Gorilla Headlock on that.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 12:28:09 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-25 17:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot
wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 4:24:40 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 11:37:18 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-25 09:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 8:27:18 AM UTC-8, Mark J.
wrote:
On 11/24/2018 3:53 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 7:05:29 PM UTC-5,
Joerg wrote:
After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus
one cog), a new chain and a new rear derailer the
road bike can now climb hills much better. 40T as
biggest cog versus 32T before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's
now a 7-speed) there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt
sound when under heavy load. Maybe from the chain
because with a derailer setup it'll never run 100%
straight. Hard to say. The noise appears briefly
twice per pedal crank rotation and always on the
power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for
7-speed and I looked, it doesn't rub against a
neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth exit grinding"? On the
3rd cog from the largest it's really weird because
that has an almost perfect chain line when on the
small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored?
Or maybe it'll go away over time?

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

When you installed your hacked cassette you didn't put
the individual cogs on backwards did you?

Worth checking, but probably not possible with "modern"
Shimano-compatible cassettes. I think the Shimano spline
pattern last allowed cog-reversal before cogs were given
shifting ramps, i.e. in the 70s-early 80s.

Mark J.

Yes, non-symmetrical splines on Hyperglide cassettes. You
can't flip them.


Sure you can, BTDT. That's one of the many reasons why the
Dremel was invented. You'll have to wear good eye protection
during that job and make sure nothing potentially flammable
is around.

This is also how I got cogs hacked out of HG cassettes onto
my last UG hub, mainly because UG cassettes could no longer
be bought. Until that last UG hub was finished, then I went
HG.


Jay I just started to reply that you shouldn’t underestimate
Joerg.

Why -- when a UG freehub is on its last legs -- would someone
grind down an entire set of HG cassettes to make them fit?


Because when I did that the last UG hub still had enough life left. I am
not a subscriber to the "modern" throw-away mentality, I use stuff until
it's really finished. Plus I'd have to hack anyhow because now I am
using 8-speed cassettes on a road bike that was 6-speed before
re-dishing and even afterwards cannot take more than seven cogs. It all
works nicely, just needs a bit of hacking after unpacking a new cassette.

Grinding off a chunk of the wider spline takes only seconds per cog.


... You know the end is near --


Now you sound like some pastors do :-)


... just go buy the damned hub or at least
swap in a HG freehub body.


A whole new hub while the old one is still perfectly serviceable? No way!


... It's a ten minute operation. Not
possible for old DuraAce (which Joerg would never own anyway),
but you could swap freehub bodies on 600EX. Plus, even after you
get done grinding, you have to use the last threaded cog -- which
is probably worn out.


That's ok, you just use a similar or same teeth-count cog to the left
left of it, adjust the derailer stop and make the bike x minus one
speed. They all have too many speeds anyhow. I prefer coarser steps like
what I've (finally!) got now.



And for Sir, you can't flip HG -- at least not without grinding.
I just went and tried flipping a cog from a junk freewheel
sitting in my basement. It's a no-go. I'll go try again just to
make sure I'm not missing anything.



-- Jay Beattie.

I'm NOT talking about flipping a HG cog onto a UG freehub. I'm
talking about flipping a HG cog on a HG freehub.


Which can be done. The HG cogs I modded to go on UG hubs can be mounted
both ways, also on HG hubs.


CHeers

I can't get a HG cassette cog to fit on a HG freehub body if I flip
the cog. The notches are not symmetrical.


After a little dance with a Dremel you can.

A new 10 speed free hub is less then $20. Spreading the rear fork is a
trivial task, re dishing a wheel, that is reasonably true, is simple
....

cheers,

John B.

On 11/26/2018 8:46 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 08:56, wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 4:05:29 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog), a
new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb hills
much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a 7-speed)
there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under heavy load.
Maybe from the chain because with a derailer setup it'll never run
100% straight. Hard to say. The noise appears briefly twice per
pedal crank rotation and always on the power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I
looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth exit
grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest it's really weird
because that has an almost perfect chain line when on the small
chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe it'll
go away over time?

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

It just occurred to me Joerg - didn't the older 8-speed SunRace
cassettes come with SR or Shimano spacings You can look at
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/k9.shtml


I have (mostly) used a set of spacers from my old UG cassettes. That way
I got seven of the eight cogs mounted on the freehub. Had to scarifice
the 15T. On a hilly ride yesterday that felt good but I'll see on a
longer ride in the flatlands later this week if the 15T should go back
in and maybe the 28T taken out instead.

40T in back sure feels good on some of these here hills.

BTW, together with a buddy we found the cause and I think someone here
had mentioned it: The chain rings are a bit worn. The smaller one more
so and it has developed slight shark fin tips on the teeth. This causes
the chain to be picked up at the bottom during high torque, resulting in
chain slap and, in consequence, derailer "dancing". Unfortunately that
chain ring can't be flipped around easily for a 2nd life so I need to
find a new one. For now I'll file down the shark fins a bit.

Hey, I guessed it! Is there a prize?

No prize. That was too easy!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/26/2018 5:12 PM, Joerg wrote:

I've never had any issue whatsoever with hacked cassettes.

Wait... what is this entire thread about??


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 14:24:45 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-26 14:01, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 4:26:53 PM UTC-5, duane wrote:
Snipped

Typically if I start off on a decent lenght ride, I like to have a
reasonable expectation of getting back without having to try to
rebuild the bike on the side of the road. To hack my cassette to
save one cog makes no sense to me. Frugality is a good thing for
the planet and all but this is sounding close to OCD.

I have a couple of bicycle wheels that still have Uniglide Cassette
bodies on them. A few years ago I came across a bicycle shop that was
a bit outside of a city in our area. that shop HAD a number of brand
new Uniglide 7 speed cassettes at $5.00 per cassette. I said HAD
because I bough every one they had. I even have a couple of NOS
Uniglide cassette bodies.


Out of curiosity, what are UG cassette bodies? The UG cassettes I had,
even before a hack, consisted only of cogs, spacers and three screws
that held it all together (but which weren't really needed and removed
by me).


... I'm set for the rest of my years and won't
need to hack apart and Dremel Hyperglide cassettes to replace those
Uniglide cogs once they wear out on both sides. If I get to the point
where I need lower gears I'll just swap out the bottom bracket
spindle 0r cartridge and add a triple chainring crankset. I have a
number of those on hand waiting for that day.


That'll be very hard on the chain and cogs if you ride a lot of hills.
Depends on rider weight and load, of course.


Speaking of hacking cassettes. I have one bicycle wheel that has a
9-speed hacked cassette with a corncob cluster 11 to 19 teeth being
shifted with friction downtube shifters which is good because one of
the cogs I could not find on my spare 9 speed cassettes was take from
and 8 speed cassette. I have no problems shifting to or from any of
those cogs. It's a fun bike to ride on gently rolling hills.

On my long distance road bike I have the Campagnolo Veloce 30 - 42 -
52 triple crank and find that 30 teeth ring useful at times in strong
headwinds, steep hills or if I'm really tired.

However, I think some people like Joerg simply enjoy making something
work with something it wasn't designed to work with.


Oh yeah. Sometimes you get a little bonus in the wake. For example, this
new cassette came with 11T and 13T as smallest cogs. Because of its
construction these had to stay in unless I'd do a more serious hack on
the big grinder. Turns out that 52/11 acts like an overdrive in a car
and if the wind picks up a wee bit I can shift to 13T. Currently I am
missing 15T so I accelerate for the last bit on the 18T, then shift to
the 13T for a "mild overdrive". It suits me well because I am not used
to spinning.


Interesting. A 52/11 with a 23mm tire at a moderate 90 RPM crank speed
is about 54 KPH or 33 MPH. I read that TdF level riders will ride a 36
K time trial in the 29 - 31 MPH range.


cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:11:29 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 5:08:17 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 7:51:12 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 16:27, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 2:12:22 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-26 13:26, Duane wrote:
On 26/11/2018 4:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 12:28:11 PM UTC-8, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-11-25 17:56, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 3:38:44 PM UTC-8, Sir
Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 4:24:40 PM UTC-5,
jbeattie wrote:

[...]


And for Sir, you can't flip HG -- at least not without
grinding. I just went and tried flipping a cog from a
junk freewheel sitting in my basement. It's a no-go.
I'll go try again just to make sure I'm not missing
anything.



-- Jay Beattie.

I'm NOT talking about flipping a HG cog onto a UG
freehub. I'm talking about flipping a HG cog on a HG
freehub.


Which can be done. The HG cogs I modded to go on UG hubs can
be mounted both ways, also on HG hubs.


CHeers

I can't get a HG cassette cog to fit on a HG freehub body
if I flip the cog. The notches are not symmetrical.


After a little dance with a Dremel you can.

Yes, if you grind off the largest tab, you can do practically
anything -- with your slop-fit sprocket transmitting torque
through probably 10% less surface area with the high gear
stopped off because its worn out. And hey, why not use four
less spokes on each wheel, no bar tape, one brake, a hose clamp
in lieu of a proper headset nut, etc., etc.


You aren't supposed to grind off all of it. Besides, even if you
did it wouldn't make a difference.

I was originally talking about flipping a HG sprocket on a HG freehub
body. If you grind down the wide tab and flip it over, you've lost
contact surface. You would not lose contact surface on a UG body --
you would just have a worn-out threaded sprocket to contend with.


On one out of nine splines. Big deal. I am not trying to win the Tour de
France or hammer up Passo Del Mortirolo with several growlers on the
rear rack.


And if having a six-speed dumpster-bike is O.K., why on earth
are you complaining about a little growling coming from your
new pie-plate sprocket? You should be happy if the wheels
turn. And you still can't fit fenders with reasonably-sized
tires, so enjoy the rainy season.


Of course this bike can have fenders, the frame is even prepared
for that. Never saw the need though. On the rear the top connector
of the panniers acts as a fender.

You said you could barely fit 25mm tires on that bike. No?


Yep. Good enough for the rides I do with this bike. Actually, since I
now have a derailer extender which allows me to ease off on the B-screw
I can move the wheel farther back and possibly mount 28mm tire. No
hardcore CX tires but maybe this kind:

https://www.amazon.com/Kenda-Karvs-F.../dp/B008823EB4


Regarding dumpster bikes you'd be surprised for how much money some
of these old frames go. I will never trade my Reynolds steel frame
for a plastics bike.

Then you should treat it with respect.


Respect to me is to use a technical object to the fullest. Including
hard use and this bike has seen plenty of that. Forest autobahns and all
that.


... BTW, have you tried a modern
CF bike? A decent modern aluminum road frame? I've owned five custom
steel frames, many aluminum frames and now CF bikes. I would take a
first generation Cannondale over my '70s-80s custom steel frames. In
fact, that's just what I did. I broke a custom Columbus SP racing
frame and got a quick Cannondale replacement frame from a local shop
to continue the racing season. That was 1984, and I liked it better
than the bike it replaced. I love riding my Emonda, and the old CAAD
9 still brings a smile to my face, but that belongs to my son now.
I'm sure I would enjoy a nice modern steel frame, too, but I'm happy
with the current line-up.


I have ridden CF and aluminum road bikes. My MTB is aluminum because
when I bought it they all were. My favorite is still steel. As for CF I
am pretty sure I'd break it.



Typically if I start off on a decent lenght ride, I like to have
a reasonable expectation of getting back without having to try to
rebuild the bike on the side of the road. To hack my cassette to
save one cog makes no sense to me. Frugality is a good thing for
the planet and all but this is sounding close to OCD.


I've never had any issue whatsoever with hacked cassettes. Or any
other hack for that matter. What I had problems with was
"professionally" made stuff.

You need better OE. I had an old touring bike with a threaded headset
that would come loose, so I got a Gorilla Headlock -- which also
eliminated the need to carry a HS wrench on tours. No hose clamps.


Yeah, I can surely buy a new headset. However, the hose clamp took
minutes to apply and does the job. As Pa Kettle said, I'll get to it.
One of these days.


In fact, the hose-clamped steerer set on my road bike holds up
better than the newfangled modern one on my MT which needs
occasional adjustment.

The compression nut and stem clamp serve the same purpose as a hose
clamp and have more contact area. If you have issues, then it is
because of inadequate torque or a poorly faced stem or spacer.


I am by far not the only one who had to constantly re-tighten the
Shimano 600 headset no matter how hard you torque the counter nut. Well,
not anymore. On smooth asphalt it's all ok but it got loose on gravel
roads, rough surface roads or dirt roads.

Nowadays you see that problem less and less but that's because hardly
anyone has Shimano 600 anymore.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I bought a used Cannondale early on and it was so stiff that I had such severe pain that I thought I'd have to stop and ask at someone's house if I could use their phone. I NEVER had such pain on any of my steel frame bicycles. I got rid of that Cannondale and kept my Tange Infinity steel frame bike for those rides.

I have a Shimano 600 EX headset on one of my bikes and I have a scalloped Dura Ace AX headset on another of my bikes. Neither of those headsets keep coming loose no matter how rough the road is that I ride on. I even ride gravel roads and some forest trails on those bikes and still don't have a problem with things loosening up. If I did have a headset that kept coming loose I'd figure that the threads on it are worn or damaged somehow. I just can not see the need to use a hose clamp to keep a headset nut where it's supposed to be.

All the steel bikes I do own do whatever job I need them to and they do it in a manner and time constraint that's acceptable for ME. Therefore I do not see the need to tosss them and get a new aluminium or carbon fiber frameset.

Other peoples' needs/wants might vary and thus they need/want aluminium or carbon fiber for their framesets.


Yah, I'm not prescribing frames. People should ride what they want, but the generic rejection of "plastic bikes" is dopey.

I broke all my steel frames and got tired of re-brazing them. I broke a bunch of Cannondales, too -- but they gave me new ones. My current commuter CX bike is the replacement for a bike I bought fifteen years ago. My son's CAAD 9 is in effect a replacement for a Cannondale 2.8 I bought in 1991 (with a few frames in between). Cannondale refused to warranty my 1987 Black Lightning (which replaced my original 1984 frame) because it just "wore out." Cannondale's generosity is not unlimited.

As for headsets loosening, I was responding to Joerg's comment about his MTB, which I assume has a threadless headset. If that is loosening, it shouldn't. My Dura Ace and 600EX headsets were also great and didn't loosen, but the Deore 1/4 ball headset on my old T1000 did loosen, so I used a Gorilla Headlock on that.

-- Jay Beattie.

Excluding any frame material just because is plain stupid. You can't discuss this with the 'steel is real' people, so why bother. Tom ranted about his CF bikes a while ago because they were so harsh that they were practical unridable and look what he has bought lately. People believe what the believe but it is seldom based on facts. It is just a religion and we have already enough of that IMO.

Lou