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#31
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Danger from CF rims
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 3:09:21 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
giant snip Apparently you are unfamiliar with this foreign concept - United States Postal Service. Exactly what you would have a dealer using after charging you as much as 10 times more than I paid. But I'm sure you're rolling in cash and that means nothing to you. Goodness! We were talking about the alleged "fact" that you posted that "Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan" and I pointed out that carbon rims are also made by U.S. companies and that their warranty is for 5 years. Now you are off on a on a trip through the intricacies of the USPS and apparently complaining that U.S. made wheels are more costly then the cheap Chinese wheels that you bought. The last time I corrected your fantasies you changed the subject to India and now it is (apparently) how impoverish you are. Wake up Tom, buying stuff because it is cheap and having it fail is not saving money. With his history of CF disasters, TK should be buying the most reliable products on the market sold by domestic sellers with domestic insurers. Try recovering a personal injury settlement or judgment from a Chinese manufacturer who sells direct -- or its insurer in China. Justify the increased price as an insurance premium. Assuming that the wheels TK bought were unbranded versions of reputable wheels made in a Chinese factory, that means that the factory was knocking them off and stealing its customer's IP -- not something we want to promote. Assuming that the customer is actually policing its IP and its factory, then the knock-off is probably coming from a different factory and is of unknown quality. Now, there have been some very good knock-offs. Phil Knight busted a factory for knocking off Nikes and then hired them because the knock-offs were so good. However, there is no way of knowing in advance what knock-offs are really good and which aren't -- and unlike shoes, you can't see the "stitching" and materials and workmanship of a CF rim. For all you know, there are giant voids and a ****ty lay-up. OTOH, it might be O.K. stuff, but if I had landed on my head a bunch of time because of broken CF bits, O.K. would not be good enough. -- Jay Beattie. |
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#32
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Danger from CF rims
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 12:22:55 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
Yes, tubular rims are different. That was not my question. How does a rim experience different forces with the same tire at the same pressure either with latex slop inside or a butyl tube? Or, again same tire, how does one rim with an airtight rim liner experience different forces from a rim with a permeable rim liner? Which forces? How different? Inquiring minds want to know. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Andrew, I thought I was pretty clear on that. I expect you have access to a clincher only and a bi" wheel so that you can see the rather major differences in the construction. The clincher rim is semi-circular from bead to bead while the tubeless rim has a longer drop down the inside top of one side to aid sealing by increasing the area of the bead. It then has a square shelf and then again drops down into the center well while the other side is a mirror copy. The forces are completely different. Because of the shape of the inside of the clincher most of the forces push UP away from the well and the side thrust is only enough to make the bead stick. On the tubeless most of the forces are sideways to seal the tire against the rim. The air in the tire only acts as a pneumatic cushion. So while they seem the same they are quite differet |
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#36
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#38
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Danger from CF rims
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 1:23:55 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 3:09:21 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: giant snip Apparently you are unfamiliar with this foreign concept - United States Postal Service. Exactly what you would have a dealer using after charging you as much as 10 times more than I paid. But I'm sure you're rolling in cash and that means nothing to you. Goodness! We were talking about the alleged "fact" that you posted that "Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan" and I pointed out that carbon rims are also made by U.S. companies and that their warranty is for 5 years. Now you are off on a on a trip through the intricacies of the USPS and apparently complaining that U.S. made wheels are more costly then the cheap Chinese wheels that you bought. The last time I corrected your fantasies you changed the subject to India and now it is (apparently) how impoverish you are. Wake up Tom, buying stuff because it is cheap and having it fail is not saving money. With his history of CF disasters, TK should be buying the most reliable products on the market sold by domestic sellers with domestic insurers. Try recovering a personal injury settlement or judgment from a Chinese manufacturer who sells direct -- or its insurer in China. Justify the increased price as an insurance premium. That is also what surprized me. How can a person with that history and the following rants about CF buy cheap Chinese CF stuff. Unbelievable. You can buy Pinnarello frame for 350 euro, looking exactly the same as the originals a probably used in the same moulds, but the measurements showed completely different values. With CF is all about lay ups, used preps and quality control. The fact that something is produced in the same country (China) doesn't mean anything. I stay far far far away from CF with an unknown pedigree as you call it. Tom should do the same IMO. CF rims for clinchers are difficult hence their price, CF rims for tubeless even more difficult and than buying cheap Chinese stuff? WTF is he thinking... Assuming that the wheels TK bought were unbranded versions of reputable wheels made in a Chinese factory, that means that the factory was knocking them off and stealing its customer's IP -- not something we want to promote. Assuming that the customer is actually policing its IP and its factory, then the knock-off is probably coming from a different factory and is of unknown quality. Now, there have been some very good knock-offs. Phil Knight busted a factory for knocking off Nikes and then hired them because the knock-offs were so good. However, there is no way of knowing in advance what knock-offs are really good and which aren't -- and unlike shoes, you can't see the "stitching" and materials and workmanship of a CF rim. For all you know, there are giant voids and a ****ty lay-up. OTOH, it might be O.K. stuff, but if I had landed on my head a bunch of time because of broken CF bits, O.K. would not be good enough. +1 Lou |
#39
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Danger from CF rims
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 7:25:31 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/2/2018 7:17 PM, wrote: On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 3:09:21 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: Goodness! We were talking about the alleged "fact" that you posted that "Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan" and I pointed out that carbon rims are also made by U.S. companies and that their warranty is for 5 years. Now you are off on a on a trip through the intricacies of the USPS and apparently complaining that U.S. made wheels are more costly then the cheap Chinese wheels that you bought. The last time I corrected your fantasies you changed the subject to India and now it is (apparently) how impoverish you are. Wake up Tom, buying stuff because it is cheap and having it fail is not saving money. cheers, John B. John, is there something about "most" you don't understand? I said MOST carbon rims. And where did you get the reliability data on American made tubeless carbon rims? What you are saying that if I'm willing to spend 5 times as much I will get a reliable rim when the vast majority of manufacturers don't seem to share your opinion and have changed back to aluminum rims with carbon fairings. I am curious as to why you would make patently false claims for no other reason than to criticize a posting I placed here to warn people off. I'm curious why non-racers buy carbon rims in the first place. -- - Frank Krygowski First I bought aluminum aero rims to try and stay with the group. Then I needed another wheelset and the price of the Campy and Fulcrum wheels had sky-rocketed. Then I saw these carbon clinchers for half the price of a good wheel. The clinchers perform very well indeed. And unlike the aluminum rims which are only sort of aero, and are a REAL handful in crosswinds, a proper aero section is no worse than, say, MA-2 rims. I wanted to go to tubeless so went through this bad experience. And it sure doesn't help to have people like John who knows very little about what he is talking about tell me that I don't know what I'm doing. I've actually ridden these things and know just how great a good pair of carbon rims are. I am VERY fast downhill, I can rival pros at that. And those carbon clinchers are so good that the bike doesn't change its line one inch on even the worse turns and bumps. What the lifetime of them remains to be seen but carbon doesn't have any fatigue limit. That doesn't mean they won't fail from resin failure though. |
#40
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Danger from CF rims
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 3:06:42 AM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:17:32 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 3:09:21 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: Goodness! We were talking about the alleged "fact" that you posted that "Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan" and I pointed out that carbon rims are also made by U.S. companies and that their warranty is for 5 years. Now you are off on a on a trip through the intricacies of the USPS and apparently complaining that U.S. made wheels are more costly then the cheap Chinese wheels that you bought. The last time I corrected your fantasies you changed the subject to India and now it is (apparently) how impoverish you are. Wake up Tom, buying stuff because it is cheap and having it fail is not saving money. cheers, John B. John, is there something about "most" you don't understand? I said MOST carbon rims. And where did you get the reliability data on American made tubeless carbon rims? What you are saying that if I'm willing to spend 5 times as much I will get a reliable rim when the vast majority of manufacturers don't seem to share your opinion and have changed back to aluminum rims with carbon fairings. I am curious as to why you would make patently false claims for no other reason than to criticize a posting I placed here to warn people off. "Patently false claims"? Which ones are those? The one about carbon rims being made in the U.S.? With a 5 year Warrantee? Tell me john - what personal experience have you had with carbon rims? What the hell makes you believe that "American made" carbon rims have any different problems with the others? You know nothing about this and simply shoot your mouth off to feel in some manner superior and what that is for I have no idea. Didn't your mother cuddle you enough in your crib? |
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