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MTB disc brake caused wild fire



 
 
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  #31  
Old March 30th 18, 02:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 5:25:55 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2018 5:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.


"Embarrassingly weak" sounds strange to me. Aren't you really talking
about overall mechanical advantage - that is, lever force vs. braking force?

Practical braking force, especially off-road, is limited by traction
and/or by risk of pitchover. I fail to see why getting that amount of
force from a one pound lever force is better than getting it from a two
pound lever force. I can squeeze a two pound force all day.


Gads, I'm afraid to ride home on my cable discs, and I might even ride home on this odd-ball trail: https://swtrails.files.wordpress.com...er-freeway.jpg Right under I-5. And adding to the danger, I'll be on rim brakes this weekend. Eeeeeek!

MTBs are a different deal, and I can see being wedded to hydraulic discs. And I really do like the hydraulic discs on my road bikes. Nothing like the smell of mineral oil in the morning. Do I need hydraulic discs? No. I've ridden all the passes in Joergville, loaded and unloaded with caliper brakes and cantis -- Monitor, Ebbetts, Pacific Grade, Luther, Carson, Sonora, Tioga -- almost all of HWY 49. The Rockies, Cascades -- all them moun-tains across the US. No runaway train stories. I guess I just lack gnarliness.

-- Jay Beattie.
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  #32  
Old March 30th 18, 07:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 1:41:51 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 14:32, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 9:47:20 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 12:25,
wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:09:07 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-28 20:28, James wrote:
On 28/03/18 01:39, Joerg wrote:


Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then
they require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy
business. On mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for
heavy duty MTB riding.


With the use of a few hose clamps, a file that is harder than tool
steel, nails and rocks, I'm sure you could build a front wheel for
your
MTB using a motorcycle front hub, disc brake and lever.


After upgrading to 8" rotors front and back I am quite pleased with
the
brake performance of my MTB. The bleeding is messy but only needs
to be
done about once a year and takes 1/2h.



Once a year? Why?


Because after about a year the lever for the rear brake starts feeling
soft. Braking is still fine and most other riders just leave it like
that but I like the pressure point nice and hard. Also, the slightest
amount of air in the line near the caliper can cause a brake failure on
a long downhill which here in the hills is not cool.


Never bleed my brakes on my cross bike for 4 years now and they feel
like they did on day 1. Shimano must be doing something right.


Says the guy riding in Nederlands where there are no mountain lions. Of
course they work for you.


There are also no hills and dirt and stuff, or having to ride through
rivers. My MTB brake calipers regularly reach a state where you can't
even seem them anymore.

The guys using Shimano out here need to bleed them as well, except they
can't use the DOT4 fluid from the garage cabinet.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


As I said they are on my crossbike which see more mud and dirt you can image. And lots of steep short up and downhills. In total I spent 3 months in California during my trips. Never had a day of rain, some drizzle/fog in San Francisco...



Lou
  #33  
Old March 30th 18, 07:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 11:32:54 PM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 9:47:20 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 12:25,
wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:09:07 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-28 20:28, James wrote:
On 28/03/18 01:39, Joerg wrote:


Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then
they require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy
business. On mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for
heavy duty MTB riding.


With the use of a few hose clamps, a file that is harder than tool
steel, nails and rocks, I'm sure you could build a front wheel for your
MTB using a motorcycle front hub, disc brake and lever.


After upgrading to 8" rotors front and back I am quite pleased with the
brake performance of my MTB. The bleeding is messy but only needs to be
done about once a year and takes 1/2h.



Once a year? Why?


Because after about a year the lever for the rear brake starts feeling
soft. Braking is still fine and most other riders just leave it like
that but I like the pressure point nice and hard. Also, the slightest
amount of air in the line near the caliper can cause a brake failure on
a long downhill which here in the hills is not cool.


Never bleed my brakes on my cross bike for 4 years now and they feel like they did on day 1. Shimano must be doing something right.


Says the guy riding in Nederlands where there are no
mountain lions. Of course they work for you.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


He, the wolf is back in The Netherland. Time to bleed my brakes...

Lou
  #34  
Old March 30th 18, 09:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 22:23:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2018 12:54 PM, sms wrote:


I still have a Arai drum brake wheel for my Trek tandem. For long steep
descents on a tandem, you really have to watch out for rims heating to
the point where you can get a blowout.

I suspect that not many non-disc brake tandems, other than the el-cheapo
BSO tandems, are being sold anymore. Santana does have one entry-level
model where the disc brake is optional.


Popularity isn't usually driven by practicality. It's usually driven
more by fashion. Tattoos, ripped jeans, aero sunglasses, carbon fiber
everything, minipumps and disc brakes are nearly always fashion choices.
They're hardly different than new hairstyles.

Jay mentions riding in Oregon rain for decades using rim brakes. We've
ridden our tandem with only rim brakes for decades. We've had no
problems at all.

Full disclosu The tandem was a custom build, with the builder (Jim
Bradford) also supplying and installing all the components. I asked for
a double-threaded Phil rear hub so I could install a hub brake if I
decided I needed it.

Bradford said it wasn't necessary, that he and his fiance had toured the
Alps on one of his tandems with only cantilever rim brakes.

I've never toured the Alps, but our tandem has never needed more brakes.
Which is good, because one of his many mistakes on this bike was
supplying a rear hub without the brake threading.


I have the feeling that the effectiveness of brakes is far more a
factor of the rider then any mechanical effect. Not that I have a
tandem but I do find that my conventional rim brakes provide adequate
service in either wet or dry conditions.

I note that some of those who have so many problems with rim brakes
seem to have so many problems with practically everything on the
bicycle and, I might add that those who don't seem to have a lot of
brake problems don't seem that have a lot of problems with the rest of
the bike either :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #35  
Old March 30th 18, 10:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:44:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-29 14:34, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.


I recently upgrade to 8" rotors front and back. That was the real game
changer. I can lock up either wheel with one finger and brake response
is prontissimo. Now I no longer have to worry when riding a steep trail
with some cargo in the back.


But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With one
finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #36  
Old March 30th 18, 10:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:04:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:44:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-29 14:34, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.


I recently upgrade to 8" rotors front and back. That was the real game
changer. I can lock up either wheel with one finger and brake response
is prontissimo. Now I no longer have to worry when riding a steep trail
with some cargo in the back.


But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With one
finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either.
--
Cheers,

John B.


You keep saying that, but are you also denying that in case of a descent in really wet conditions your rim brakes (V or calipers) brake signifant less than in dry conditions?

Lou
  #37  
Old March 30th 18, 12:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 02:29:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:04:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:44:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-29 14:34, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.


I recently upgrade to 8" rotors front and back. That was the real game
changer. I can lock up either wheel with one finger and brake response
is prontissimo. Now I no longer have to worry when riding a steep trail
with some cargo in the back.


But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With one
finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either.
--
Cheers,

John B.


You keep saying that, but are you also denying that in case of a descent in really wet conditions your rim brakes (V or calipers) brake signifant less than in dry conditions?

Lou


I don't know, or more factually, I never noticed. And, yes, as I live
in a tropical country I do get caught in the rain from time to time.
To be frank, I never gave the brakes a thought - they just worked.

Then along came this thread and I discovered that the rim brakes that
I had always considered satisfactory turned out to be ****! Damn,
about 20 years of being satisfied with what I had and now I've got to
convert to disc brakes to be able to stop the bike.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #38  
Old March 30th 18, 01:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 1:16:42 PM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 02:29:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:04:26 AM UTC+2, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:44:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-03-29 14:34, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 3/27/2018 7:39 AM, Joerg wrote:

Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then they
require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy business. On
mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for them. Cable disc
brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for heavy duty MTB riding.

Avoid hydraulic disc brakes at all costs. Stick to mechanical disc brakes.



Which require constant adjustments as the pads wear, have cables that
weather eats, etc.

All my bikes have disks the CX/gravel/adventure road? Is cable the others
are hydraulic.

The cable is a lot more fuss, the Hydros just work, once set up you feed
them pads which is very easy.

Personally as someone who rides off-road plus high (ish) miles commuting
disks and preferably Hydro are game changers in terms of performance and
maintenance.

In terms of stuff like power, there is quite a overlap between the two, my
gravel bikes cable disks is about as powerful as the old commute MTB with
its older and cheaper Hydro brakes, both are embarrassing weak compared to
my Full suspension MTB.


I recently upgrade to 8" rotors front and back. That was the real game
changer. I can lock up either wheel with one finger and brake response
is prontissimo. Now I no longer have to worry when riding a steep trail
with some cargo in the back.

But I can lock up either, or both, wheels with vee brakes. With one
finger unless I want to lock both wheels which takes two fingers :-)

And, I might add, no requirement for bleeding either.
--
Cheers,

John B.


You keep saying that, but are you also denying that in case of a descent in really wet conditions your rim brakes (V or calipers) brake signifant less than in dry conditions?

Lou


I don't know, or more factually, I never noticed. And, yes, as I live
in a tropical country I do get caught in the rain from time to time.
To be frank, I never gave the brakes a thought - they just worked.

Then along came this thread and I discovered that the rim brakes that
I had always considered satisfactory turned out to be ****! Damn,
about 20 years of being satisfied with what I had and now I've got to
convert to disc brakes to be able to stop the bike.
--
Cheers,

John B.


No one but Joerg is saying that you die if you use rim brakes. We all use or used rim brakes and we survived. This doesn't mean that (hydraulic) disc brake are better in wet conditions.

Lou
  #39  
Old March 30th 18, 02:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On 3/30/2018 3:56 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 27 Mar 2018 22:23:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2018 12:54 PM, sms wrote:


I still have a Arai drum brake wheel for my Trek tandem. For long steep
descents on a tandem, you really have to watch out for rims heating to
the point where you can get a blowout.

I suspect that not many non-disc brake tandems, other than the el-cheapo
BSO tandems, are being sold anymore. Santana does have one entry-level
model where the disc brake is optional.


Popularity isn't usually driven by practicality. It's usually driven
more by fashion. Tattoos, ripped jeans, aero sunglasses, carbon fiber
everything, minipumps and disc brakes are nearly always fashion choices.
They're hardly different than new hairstyles.

Jay mentions riding in Oregon rain for decades using rim brakes. We've
ridden our tandem with only rim brakes for decades. We've had no
problems at all.

Full disclosu The tandem was a custom build, with the builder (Jim
Bradford) also supplying and installing all the components. I asked for
a double-threaded Phil rear hub so I could install a hub brake if I
decided I needed it.

Bradford said it wasn't necessary, that he and his fiance had toured the
Alps on one of his tandems with only cantilever rim brakes.

I've never toured the Alps, but our tandem has never needed more brakes.
Which is good, because one of his many mistakes on this bike was
supplying a rear hub without the brake threading.


I have the feeling that the effectiveness of brakes is far more a
factor of the rider then any mechanical effect. Not that I have a
tandem but I do find that my conventional rim brakes provide adequate
service in either wet or dry conditions.

I note that some of those who have so many problems with rim brakes
seem to have so many problems with practically everything on the
bicycle and, I might add that those who don't seem to have a lot of
brake problems don't seem that have a lot of problems with the rest of
the bike either :-)


You merely have bright green vipers, not mountain lions.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #40  
Old March 30th 18, 03:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default MTB disc brake caused wild fire

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 11:09:37 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 1:41:51 AM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 14:32, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 9:47:20 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-29 12:25,
wrote:
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:09:07 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-28 20:28, James wrote:
On 28/03/18 01:39, Joerg wrote:


Hydraulics also can suffer from sudden fade and that's scary. Then
they require bleeding which, depending on the kind, is a messy
business. On mine particularly so because there is no bleed kit for
them. Cable disc brakes are fine for pavement riding, just not for
heavy duty MTB riding.


With the use of a few hose clamps, a file that is harder than tool
steel, nails and rocks, I'm sure you could build a front wheel for
your
MTB using a motorcycle front hub, disc brake and lever.


After upgrading to 8" rotors front and back I am quite pleased with
the
brake performance of my MTB. The bleeding is messy but only needs
to be
done about once a year and takes 1/2h.



Once a year? Why?


Because after about a year the lever for the rear brake starts feeling
soft. Braking is still fine and most other riders just leave it like
that but I like the pressure point nice and hard. Also, the slightest
amount of air in the line near the caliper can cause a brake failure on
a long downhill which here in the hills is not cool.


Never bleed my brakes on my cross bike for 4 years now and they feel
like they did on day 1. Shimano must be doing something right.

Says the guy riding in Nederlands where there are no mountain lions. Of
course they work for you.


There are also no hills and dirt and stuff, or having to ride through
rivers. My MTB brake calipers regularly reach a state where you can't
even seem them anymore.

The guys using Shimano out here need to bleed them as well, except they
can't use the DOT4 fluid from the garage cabinet.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


As I said they are on my crossbike which see more mud and dirt you can image. And lots of steep short up and downhills. In total I spent 3 months in California during my trips. Never had a day of rain, some drizzle/fog in San Francisco...


Story time: I was born and raised in California and raced NorCal and used to ride a lot with a guy from Vancouver, Washington. He would step out from his apartment, look up and say "another nice day." I didn't know what he was taking about until I moved to Portland. He would go to Portland every year at Fourth of July for the races at Alpenrose. https://www.bicycleattorney..com/img...015-oregon.jpg He would come back and tell me that it rained. WTF? In July? We were cooking in July.

Anyway, even in the Central Valley you can get some epic rain storms, and in Joergville, maybe a dusting of snow now and then and some rain. It is, however, a dry climate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnBoGhNWXx4 Lots of oak, madrone, bay and brown grass during summer. I miss the smell, and up the road a ways, there is some great climbing . . . on the road. In fact, it is some of the best climbing and scenery in the US, although considerably east of Joerg's house.

-- Jay Beattie.
 




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