A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

High visibility law yields no improvement in safety



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old April 2nd 18, 03:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On 4/1/2018 12:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Is there a study the correlates the production of laws, regulations,
ordinances, executive orders, and judicial opinions with the quality
of life, GDP, mean income, and/or cost of living? There should be a
connection because every time there's a problem, the standard solution
is invariably more laws, regulations, ordinances, executive orders,
and eventually judicial opinions. More generally, do laws do anything
useful? In this case, we have a mandatory high visibility Italian
dress code for cyclists, that is not being enforced, and generally
being ignored. Little wonder there was no change in accident rate
after the law was enacted.


Are you implying that we should not be passing more laws to make
everything safe for everybody? Are you some sort of communist?



Ads
  #52  
Old April 2nd 18, 04:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On 4/2/2018 5:01 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 3:15:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

How's that 100+ year old worldwide Heroin ban going?

--
Andrew Muzi


Much better than that 0 year ban on alcohol. Alcohol is far and away the number one drug killer. Alcohol kills far more people than all the other drugs combined. But its not banned at all. Its promoted. Except maybe in a few countries around the world. If heroin was not banned, and promoted as strongly as alcohol, it might kill off as many people as alcohol.


I don't think there's any question that heroin would kill off FAR more
people if it were as common and as promoted as alcohol.

From what I find from quick online searches, there are about 227
million alcohol users in the U.S., and about 88000 alcohol related deaths.

There are about a million heroin users and about 15000 heroin deaths per
year in the U.S.

So for alcohol, 2600 users per death. For heroin, 66 users per death.
Heroin seems to be about 40 times more deadly.

Also, let's keep in mind that, like it or not, alcohol has been a normal
part of human society pretty much since there have been humans.
Certainly since there have been settled villages. Fermentation is a
natural process, and its products are enjoyed even by animals. Heroin is
very, very different.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #53  
Old April 2nd 18, 04:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 07:14:03 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/1/2018 12:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Is there a study the correlates the production of laws, regulations,
ordinances, executive orders, and judicial opinions with the quality
of life, GDP, mean income, and/or cost of living? There should be a
connection because every time there's a problem, the standard solution
is invariably more laws, regulations, ordinances, executive orders,
and eventually judicial opinions. More generally, do laws do anything
useful? In this case, we have a mandatory high visibility Italian
dress code for cyclists, that is not being enforced, and generally
being ignored. Little wonder there was no change in accident rate
after the law was enacted.


Are you implying that we should not be passing more laws to make
everything safe for everybody? Are you some sort of communist?


Nope. I'm suggesting that you find a study which correlates the
number of laws (or number of pages of laws) with desirable social
conditions, such as increases in disposable income, reduction in cost
of living, reduction in taxes, decrease in crime, reduction in energy
use, etc. You're ideally placed to perform a short term and short
range survey. Just add up the number of laws, regulations,
ordinances, executive orders, and judicial opinions enacted during
your term of office, and compare that with changes in the
aforementioned quality of life metrics. If it appears that the
increased trend in legalism has not produced a desirable outcome,
perhaps it would be beneficial if a quote or limit were placed on the
manufacture of new laws, regulations, ordinances, executive orders,
and judicial opinions. If not, at least the question "Do laws do
anything useful"? might be answered. If you believe the more laws
make people and things more safe, it should be easy to correlate
accident statistics with the number of laws, regulations, ordinances,
executive orders, and judicial opinions produced. Off-hand, I would
guess(tm) that rate of law production is many times the rate of any
perceived or actual improvement in public safety.

Also, I'm not a communist. The closest approximation might be a
political nihilist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
It's really quite difficult to find a political party that is
compatible with my beliefs, biases, distortions, prejudices,
assertions, and activities. I would probably have organized my own
party long ago, but have not been able to find anyone who willingly
conforms to my political beliefs. I tried joining the American Apathy
Party, but nobody showed up for the meetings. Time permitting, I'll
try shopping for a suitable label:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States
and see if anything fits.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #54  
Old April 2nd 18, 04:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On 4/2/2018 10:12 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 5:01 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 3:15:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

How's that 100+ year old worldwide Heroin ban going?

--
Andrew Muzi


Much better than that 0 year ban on alcohol. Alcohol is
far and away the number one drug killer. Alcohol kills
far more people than all the other drugs combined. But
its not banned at all. Its promoted. Except maybe in a
few countries around the world. If heroin was not banned,
and promoted as strongly as alcohol, it might kill off as
many people as alcohol.


I don't think there's any question that heroin would kill
off FAR more people if it were as common and as promoted as
alcohol.

From what I find from quick online searches, there are
about 227 million alcohol users in the U.S., and about 88000
alcohol related deaths.

There are about a million heroin users and about 15000
heroin deaths per year in the U.S.

So for alcohol, 2600 users per death. For heroin, 66 users
per death. Heroin seems to be about 40 times more deadly.

Also, let's keep in mind that, like it or not, alcohol has
been a normal part of human society pretty much since there
have been humans. Certainly since there have been settled
villages. Fermentation is a natural process, and its
products are enjoyed even by animals. Heroin is very, very
different.


Huh? IFTFY Nothing's more natural than opium. Mammals just
love the stuff.

Compare fermentation (beer, wine) to distilled 190 proof
Everclear and then opium to Heroin. 'Natural' may not be an
apt or useful term here.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #55  
Old April 2nd 18, 04:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On 4/2/2018 7:08 AM, somebody wrote:

The sooner they see you the better.


I don't think it's that simple.

Yes, I want to be seen - or more important, I want to be noted as
relevant, as someone who will have to be dealt with. But I want that to
happen soon enough. Being seen extra early doesn't help much. The
benefits of excess conspicuity diminish pretty quickly.

Example: In city traffic, if I register on the consciousness of a
motorist who's one block away, that's _plenty_. On an open rural
highway, 200 yards is probably plenty. Doubling that distance has no
great effect.

On to anecdotes: I have some cycling jerseys that are brightly colored,
and I wear them on some rural rides. I also have others with rather
muted colors, and I've done tons of utility cycling in ordinary
clothing. The rain jacket I've taken on a couple European trips is
black. I've never noticed the slightest difference in how I've been
treated on the road based on what I'm wearing.

In 40+ years of riding, I've had to stop twice because of drivers'
SMIDSY mistakes. (Both drivers apologized.) Neither was a close call,
and one of those was unusual in that as the motorist was leaving a
parking lot, I was emerging from the end of a MUP. The street he was
pulling into was a dead end, except for the path, so he probably never
thought to check at all.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #56  
Old April 2nd 18, 04:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 17:13:54 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 8:55:09 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
"Fact Checking The Claim Of 97% Consensus On Anthropogenic Climate
Change"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/uhenergy/2016/12/14/fact-checking-the-97-consensus-on-anthropogenic-climate-change/#6c0a44f61157


That article doesn't open for me either by your link or an
independently googled link.


Works for me, but it might be because you're not in the USA. I'll see
if I can find a plagiarized version elsewhere.

MSc thesis, University of Illinois, 2008:
M Zimmermann, The Consensus of the consensus
http://www.lulu.com/shop/m-r-k-zimmerman/the-consensus-on-the-consensus/ebook/product-17391505.html


I spent the $2 and downloaded the PDF. Really interesting comments
from some of the survey participants. The problem is that the author
did not have access to names and email addresses from the various
environmental sciences trade organizations. She had to settle for a
list of academics, which does tend to favor AGW. The key comment is
on the top of Pg 13:
"For statistical purposes, the population that this survey
will comment on will be academics, or those associated with
college and university programs in the geoscience field in 2007."

Therefore, the title of the survey should be something like:
THE CONSENSUS ON THE CONSENSUS: AN OPINION SURVEY OF EARTH
SCIENTISTS IN ACADEMIC TEACHING POSITIONS ON GLOBAL CLIMATE
CHANGE

I also have some questions as to how she produced her numbers. There's
quite a bit in the report under results, all of it in percentages.
That's meaningless unless the actual counts are included. For
example, claiming 50% agreement does not seem very compelling when
there are only 2 survey opinions involved.

I also question what constitutes an "earth scientist". One geologist
commented that his background and training did not include atmospheric
phenomenon, which is central to AGW research. Since the pool of
respondents came from a faculty mailing list provided by The American
Geological Institute (Pg 12), it's little wonder that the available
climate scientists were predominantly geologists and geophysicists. At
least she's honest about it in the title, which mentions "earth
scientists" but probably includes few scientists involved in
atmospheric studies.

I also had a problem with her first question, which asked about
climate "before 1800" but did not specify a lower limit.

I'm not so sure that this survey is the basis for the 97.1% consensus
number. This number does not appear anywhere in the survey. I made a
limited attempt to cook the numbers into something close to 97% and
failed. Are you SURE that this is the original source? I see no
evidence of a conspiracy, but simply a MS treasis that was severely
hampered by the availability of a limited pool of scientists.

Andre Jute
Thorough


Hardly. You failed to associate this survey with the 97.1% figure.

"Everyone lies, but that's ok, because nobody listens".
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #57  
Old April 2nd 18, 06:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On 4/2/2018 11:37 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/2/2018 10:12 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/2/2018 5:01 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 3:15:08 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

How's that 100+ year old worldwide Heroin ban going?

--
Andrew Muzi

Much better than that 0 year ban on alcohol.Â* Alcohol is
far and away the number one drug killer.Â* Alcohol kills
far more people than all the other drugs combined.Â* But
its not banned at all.Â* Its promoted.Â* Except maybe in a
few countries around the world.Â* If heroin was not banned,
and promoted as strongly as alcohol, it might kill off as
many people as alcohol.


I don't think there's any question that heroin would kill
off FAR more people if it were as common and as promoted as
alcohol.

Â*From what I find from quick online searches, there are
about 227 million alcohol users in the U.S., and about 88000
alcohol related deaths.

There are about a million heroin users and about 15000
heroin deaths per year in the U.S.

So for alcohol, 2600 users per death. For heroin, 66 users
per death. Heroin seems to be about 40 times more deadly.

Also, let's keep in mind that, like it or not, alcohol has
been a normal part of human society pretty much since there
have been humans. Certainly since there have been settled
villages. Fermentation is a natural process, and its
products are enjoyed even by animals. Heroin is very, very
different.


Huh? IFTFYÂ* Nothing's more natural than opium. Mammals just love the stuff.

Compare fermentation (beer, wine) to distilled 190 proof Everclear and
then opium to Heroin. 'Natural' may not be an apt or useful term here.


A) Opium is not heroin, and alcohol is not Everclear. Let's be clear
about what we're discussing. (Note I haven't mentioned fentanyl or other
stronger synthetics yet.)

B) Opium may be pretty natural, but it's not a universal part of human
culture. Alcohol is. Some even claim that alcohol produced civilization.
http://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/how-...-archaeologist
I think that's extreme, but still, I don't think anyone's made a
similar claim for opium.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #58  
Old April 2nd 18, 07:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On 4/2/2018 8:14 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 07:14:03 -0700, sms
wrote:

You're ideally placed to perform a short term and short
range survey. Just add up the number of laws, regulations,
ordinances, executive orders, and judicial opinions enacted during
your term of office, and compare that with changes in the
aforementioned quality of life metrics.

Our City just passed a Social Host Drinking Ordinance. Our well-meaning
Teen Commission promoted this ordinance. On the first reading, I went
along and voted yes, but in the intervening two weeks I did some
investigation, and I was the sole "no" vote for the second reading
(ordinances require two readings before they become law).

I voted no for the following reasons:

1. Section 25658.2 of the California Business and Professions Code
already covers underage drinking with stricter penalties.

2. The Santa Clara County District Attorney will not prosecute violators
of a city ordinance.

3. The instances of such underage drinking violations, under the current
law, are exceedingly rare, about three per year.

4. I would rather focus on education than legislation on this issue.

5. I am the newbie so I was the only council person that actually read
the proposed ordinance before voting on it. There was a glaring mistake
they made when they copied an ordinance from another city.
  #59  
Old April 2nd 18, 08:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On 4/2/2018 8:37 AM, AMuzi wrote:

Compare fermentation (beer, wine) to distilled 190 proof Everclear and
then opium to Heroin. 'Natural' may not be an apt or useful term here.


I remember Everclear from when I went on backpacking trips and the
leader brought it along because it was the most concentrated alcohol
available. He mixed it with Tang and water to make "Tangaroos."

It isn't sold in California anymore.

  #60  
Old April 3rd 18, 12:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default High visibility law yields no improvement in safety

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 4:45:30 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 17:13:54 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:


MSc thesis, University of Illinois, 2008:
M Zimmermann, The Consensus of the consensus
http://www.lulu.com/shop/m-r-k-zimmerman/the-consensus-on-the-consensus/ebook/product-17391505.html


I'm not so sure that this survey is the basis for the 97.1% consensus
number.


That was the study referred to when the 97% was first used. That number was then fixed, and all consequent studies had to "prove" it.

The whole affair is statistically worthless, more a matter of religious faith to second-rate minds than any kind of iterable science.

AJ
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cheap high-visibility vest for cyclists. Mr. Benn[_4_] UK 79 December 29th 10 01:30 AM
High visibility vest just £1.35 Mr Benn[_2_] UK 18 December 11th 09 03:05 PM
High Visibility Gear for Daylight Steveal UK 21 July 12th 09 07:23 PM
Plain high-visibility jerseys...? Kenneth General 9 August 19th 04 05:29 AM
leeds afety high visibility clothing mike UK 1 December 11th 03 12:44 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.