Tic/Tinkle Noise From Loose Ball Hubs??

I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro rims.
My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rythimic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless of
load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!

The noise seems to be comming from the loose ball bearings as they bang
into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the balls
apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease reduces the
noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.

This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the noise
is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro Click". I
adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the frame there is
no side to side play at the rim.

This noise is starting to bug me and seems contrary to an otherwise
nice set of wheels. Has anyone else ever noticed a noise like this and
is there any way to get rid of it?

Ed

Ed Ness writes:

I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro
rims. My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rhythmic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless
of load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!

The noise seems to be coming from the loose ball bearings as they
bang into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the
balls apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease
reduces the noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.

This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the
noise is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro
Click". I adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the
frame there is no side to side play at the rim.

I doubt the noise results from loose (uncaged) balls. There must be
something in the freewheel escapement making the noise. To test for
this, take the wheel out of the bicycle and spin it while holding the
axle in the hands, then do the same with the wheel spinning
horizontally. If it make the noise in the horizontal position (axle
vertical) then it is definitely not the bearing balls falling on each
other.

If you can grab a pair of 1/4" 9-position bearing cages from your LBS,
try that with only three balls equally spaced to see if the sound is
still reproducible. By the way, bearing cages cost nothing in
performance while being a great convenience for maintenance. That way
the balls come out as a unit and go in that way even without grease.

I can't hear what you hear from here but with the wheel out of the
bicycle you should be able to come closer to the source.

Jobst Brandt

wrote:
I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro rims.
My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rythimic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless of
load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!

The noise seems to be comming from the loose ball bearings as they bang
into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the balls
apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease reduces the
noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.

This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the noise
is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro Click". I
adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the frame there is
no side to side play at the rim.

This noise is starting to bug me and seems contrary to an otherwise
nice set of wheels. Has anyone else ever noticed a noise like this and
is there any way to get rid of it?

Ed

I hear that noise in my ancient Shimano 600 hubs on my commuter bike.

I think you've got the cause pinpointed. (Certainly, in my case it has
nothing to do with freewheel pawls, as Jobst suggested. It happens
when pedaling or coasting.)

I don't know of any real cure, and I don't believe a cure is necessary.


But I often whistle as I ride. If you pick the tune carefully, that
clicking can be a subtle percussion accompaniment. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Thanks for the tip. When holding the wheel horizontal the noise goes
away almost completely! As soon as the wheel is rotated vertical the
tinkle noise comes back. Very strange. Makes me think the cones are
too loose but I can't feel any slop if I wiggle the rim with the wheel
clamped in the frame. I'm using Shimano brand grease, the green stuff,
which I think should be fine.

I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub! This would be a great solution if it works!

Thanks.

Ed

wrote:
I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro rims.
My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rythimic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless of
load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!

The noise seems to be comming from the loose ball bearings as they bang
into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the balls
apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease reduces the
noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.

This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the noise
is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro Click". I
adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the frame there is
no side to side play at the rim.

This noise is starting to bug me and seems contrary to an otherwise
nice set of wheels. Has anyone else ever noticed a noise like this and
is there any way to get rid of it?

Ed

it's not uncommon and is nothing to worry about. it's just the bearing
balls "falling over the top" of the axle cone. if you want to stop it,
tighten the bearing cones ever so slightly, /after/ you've read
sheldon's excellent article on how to adjust, or repack the bearings
with thicker grease.

wrote:
Ed Ness writes:


I have a low mileage set of Dura Ace 7700 hubs laced to Open Pro
rims. My rear wheel rolls nice and smooth but emits a non rhythmic
"tic/tinkle" noise as the wheel spins. This noise occurs regardless
of load and it even occurs if I spin the axle while holding the rim
stationary!


The noise seems to be coming from the loose ball bearings as they
bang into one another (Dura Ace hubs do not have a cage to space the
balls apart from one another). Repacking the hub with grease
reduces the noise but it always comes back after a handful of miles.


This particular wheel has made this noise since new. I know the
noise is in the hub so please don't say this is the "Open Pro
Click". I adjusted the cones so when the wheel is clamped in the
frame there is no side to side play at the rim.


I doubt the noise results from loose (uncaged) balls.

you "doubt" but you don't know? for a bearing expert jobst, you seem to
know remarkably little on this subject.

There must be
something in the freewheel escapement making the noise. To test for
this, take the wheel out of the bicycle and spin it while holding the
axle in the hands, then do the same with the wheel spinning
horizontally. If it make the noise in the horizontal position (axle
vertical) then it is definitely not the bearing balls falling on each
other.

If you can grab a pair of 1/4" 9-position bearing cages from your LBS,
try that with only three balls equally spaced to see if the sound is
still reproducible.

if they're loose bearing bals, all that shows is that the load has
become distributed among fewer points and therefore is greater on each.
if they're still in their cages, it shows that they're, er, still held
in place by their cages!!!

By the way, bearing cages cost nothing in
performance while being a great convenience for maintenance. That way
the balls come out as a unit and go in that way even without grease.

are you advocating the use of a bearing cage for cup & cone axles? if
so, it shows that you've never actually serviced a wheel bearing
contrary to all your "expert advice" on this subject because if you had,
you'd know that it would be impossible to get the bearing balls in or
out if they were held with a cage.


I can't hear what you hear from here but with the wheel out of the
bicycle you should be able to come closer to the source.

Jobst Brandt

another quite amazing post.

wrote:
Thanks for the tip. When holding the wheel horizontal the noise goes
away almost completely! As soon as the wheel is rotated vertical the
tinkle noise comes back. Very strange. Makes me think the cones are
too loose

they're not loose, but they're not loaded. you only need the merest
fraction of play for a ball to be able to do this.

but I can't feel any slop if I wiggle the rim with the wheel
clamped in the frame. I'm using Shimano brand grease, the green stuff,
which I think should be fine.

it is, but if you want something thicker, use boat bearing grease.


I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub!

you're not the only one!

This would be a great solution if it works!

it would be quite amazing.


Thanks.

Ed

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:53:00 -0700, jim beam
wrote:

wrote:

[snip]

I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub!

you're not the only one!

This would be a great solution if it works!

it would be quite amazing.


Thanks.

Ed

Dear Ed and Jim,

Are these the bearing cages for hub and axles that Jobst has
in mind?

1. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer, 7 x 1/4'' /Each
Item #AP-13
Price: $1.00

2. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer 7 x 3/16'' /Each
Item #AP-6
Price: $1.00

3. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer 12 x 3/16'' /Each
Item #AP-F74
Price: $1.00

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi...7791913 22219

Carl Fogel

wrote:
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:53:00 -0700, jim beam
wrote:


wrote:


[snip]


I'll see if I can chase down a bearing cage as suggested. I hope it
fits inside the hub!

you're not the only one!


This would be a great solution if it works!

it would be quite amazing.


Thanks.

Ed


Dear Ed and Jim,

Are these the bearing cages for hub and axles that Jobst has
in mind?

1. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer, 7 x 1/4'' /Each
Item #AP-13
Price: $1.00

2. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer 7 x 3/16'' /Each
Item #AP-6
Price: $1.00

3. Hub Axle Ball Bearing Retainer 12 x 3/16'' /Each
Item #AP-F74
Price: $1.00

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi...7791913 22219

Carl Fogel

how do you get a 20-something mm retainer in through a 18mm hole? you'd
have to remove the dust cover, something much easier said than done.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:29:37 -0700, jim beam wrote:

you "doubt" but you don't know? for a bearing expert jobst, you seem to
know remarkably little on this subject.

Way to go with the vendetta there, man.

are you advocating the use of a bearing cage for cup & cone axles? if
so, it shows that you've never actually serviced a wheel bearing
contrary to all your "expert advice" on this subject because if you had,
you'd know that it would be impossible to get the bearing balls in or
out if they were held with a cage.

Uhm, what the ****? Almost all cup/cone wheel bearing are in cages. It's
only some high end ones like the aforementioned Dura Ace (And hell, quite
possibly all Shimano down to Tourney, I don't know and I don't care,
that's still high end compared to most stuff on the road worldwide) use
loose bearings, probably primarily to fit in the extra ball (a 7 ball cage
typically takes up as much space as 8 loose balls).

If you're trying to convince me that jobst is the one who's never seen the
inside of a hub instead of you, you're doing a pretty damn ****-poor job
of it, let me tell you.


Jasper