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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries



 
 
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  #121  
Old February 12th 18, 07:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,333
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/12/2018 9:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-12 08:51, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 8:03 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Simple: When clicking the light on you must stand over it or near it.
It could, for example, issue three short flashes after turn-on for
batt-ok, two flashes for "enough but not for more than a few hours"
and on flash for "it'll be empty very soon".


That's reasonable for a USB powered light with Li-Ion batteries. For a
device running on AA or AAA batteries, not really, because different
chemistry AA batteries have very different voltages and discharge curves.

Battery voltage for primary D, C, AA, AAA, AAAA cells:
***** Alkaline-manganese dioxide: 1.5V. Linear voltage degradation
***** NiMH: 1.2V with almost do voltage degradation until fully
discharged.
***** Primary Lithium (LiFeS2): up to 1.83V, typically 1.7V, discharged
if 1.6V or less. Decreasing voltage during discharge, not quite linear.

I have seen a device where there was a switch to flip for NiMH versus
Alkaline to account for the different voltages in order to provide a
more accurate low battery warning, though no option for LiFeS2.



You could provide a zero-cost alkaline-NiMH function swap by, for
example, pressing the on-off button for 3sec. Not necessary though
because more rear lights are a bit dim with 1.2V NiMH and I bet 99% of
riders use AAA cells. So just provide a lo-bat warning for alkaline and
that goes a long way.

Of course, for that to work the IC designers must be competent enough to
include a decent bandgap reference. You wouldn't believe how many aren't.

It doesn't have to be accurate, just ballpark. Mainly because almost
nobody remembers how many hours the recent set of batteries has been used.

Another near-zero cost method would be to provide a coarse timer.
5h-10-15h-20h-25h. Simple RC or relaxation oscillator, one through five
flashes for status, done. Or just count the number of blinks. Serious
riders know how long batteries of their choice will last so they can
then decide at 15h or 20h to change them out.

Product design can be quite simple and cheap if we just think outside
the box and most of all try the designed products ourselves. A bike
accessory manufacturer should preferably hire ... riders.


Yes, but they need to hire riders that aren't geeks if they want to
design something usable.

To do low-battery right on a light where you don't know what type of
batteries will be used, you can't do correlation, you need an optical
solution, like an opto-isolator inside that tracks the light output of
the LEDs and indicates when intensity is falling, independent of battery
type. For internal rechargeable Li-Ion batteries it's easy to roughly
correlate voltage with remaining capacity.

And seriously, while geeks may count blinks and program the battery type
via button presses, not everyone that bicycles is an engineer. It's hard
enough to explain how to cycle through the different modes.

The battery indicator on my Lezyne is simple and perfect. Green 50%.
Yellow =11-50%. Red 10% or less. I don't need a bar graph LCD or a
digital readout.

I saw "the perfect light" at one Interbike because you could program the
modes including intensity and flash rate via button presses. Since many
lights keep the DRL flasher at full intensity, which is unnecessary, I
thought that this was a good idea. But it was way too complex for the
normal rider. A software person would get frustrated and dump their
herbal tea onto the light.
Ads
  #122  
Old February 12th 18, 07:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,333
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/12/2018 9:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-12 07:56, sms wrote:


The key to getting more people out on bicycles is to promote equipment
that allows them to ride to work or school in normal clothes, and
provide routes that make the ride practical.


Amen! Many people do not understand this and that includes a lot here in
the NG.


Because it is mostly enthusiasts in the NG. We need to understand how
normal people think sic.

A bicycle boulevard without a bicycle lane? What is a bicycle boulevard
then?


It is heavily traffic-calmed. There are few stop signs (stop signs are
on the cross streets. It is well marked. It goes all the way from
outlying residential neighborhoods to schools and to downtown. It is
very heavily used. Some people think that bicycle lanes are the only
infrastructure that will get people onto bikes for transportational
cycling but that's not true. People will ride on quiet streets as well.
The bicycle boulevards aren't suitable for fast recreational rides.
You're not going to find many riders going faster than 15 MPH (unless
they're on an electric bicycle).

scratching head


Those three others are unfortunately typical, sounds like our village :-(


The others were not bad people (well not all of them) they just were not
interested in cycling, except in theory. I am pretty lucky that right
now we have four out of five council people that are pretty supportive
of bicycling, even if we disagree on other major issues. We have a
chance to make that five out of five this November.

I have been trying to get a bicycle light giveaway going, even though
most riders could afford lights they don't get them. Especially bad is
students riding to school in the early morning when it's dark.



Won't help much. I dread going through Davis with my car but sometimes
had to because of carrying a heavy load. At night cyclists dart around
willy-nilly. Traffic rules? Red lights? Phhht, that ain't meanin'
nuthin'. Many have rear lights and they are mostly either off or are
very dim and have depleted alkalines in them that have been leaking for
weeks.


I think that the key is USB rechargeable. People have become accustomed
to plugging in their devices at night, phones, tablets, cars, laptops, etc..

  #123  
Old February 12th 18, 10:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,548
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-12 10:45, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 9:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-12 07:56, sms wrote:


The key to getting more people out on bicycles is to promote equipment
that allows them to ride to work or school in normal clothes, and
provide routes that make the ride practical.


Amen! Many people do not understand this and that includes a lot here
in the NG.


Because it is mostly enthusiasts in the NG. We need to understand how
normal people think sic.


If we want to foster cycling in general then we sure have to. And soon
because just a few years from now almost everyone interested in cycling
will lean towards electric bikes. Which are essentially a mopeds without
the stench.


A bicycle boulevard without a bicycle lane? What is a bicycle
boulevard then?


It is heavily traffic-calmed. There are few stop signs (stop signs are
on the cross streets. It is well marked. It goes all the way from
outlying residential neighborhoods to schools and to downtown. It is
very heavily used. Some people think that bicycle lanes are the only
infrastructure that will get people onto bikes for transportational
cycling but that's not true. People will ride on quiet streets as well.



Yes, they generally will.


The bicycle boulevards aren't suitable for fast recreational rides.
You're not going to find many riders going faster than 15 MPH (unless
they're on an electric bicycle).


That's ok as long as you can go faster without endangering others. When
I am down in the flatlands the speedometer is usually between 17mph and
19mph.


scratching head


Those three others are unfortunately typical, sounds like our village :-(


The others were not bad people (well not all of them) they just were not
interested in cycling, except in theory. I am pretty lucky that right
now we have four out of five council people that are pretty supportive
of bicycling, even if we disagree on other major issues. We have a
chance to make that five out of five this November.


Keeping my fingers crossed.


I have been trying to get a bicycle light giveaway going, even though
most riders could afford lights they don't get them. Especially bad is
students riding to school in the early morning when it's dark.



Won't help much. I dread going through Davis with my car but sometimes
had to because of carrying a heavy load. At night cyclists dart around
willy-nilly. Traffic rules? Red lights? Phhht, that ain't meanin'
nuthin'. Many have rear lights and they are mostly either off or are
very dim and have depleted alkalines in them that have been leaking
for weeks.


I think that the key is USB rechargeable. People have become accustomed
to plugging in their devices at night, phones, tablets, cars, laptops,
etc..


Having to detach the light every night is cumbersome. If it can be
charged while mounted that would be ok. That is what I do right now for
the large central batteries on the road bike and the MTB except it's a
coaxial-style connector. When I get home I plug in the bike. It's part
of the routine just like it is with owners of electric vehicles. Would
be nice if all electricity is concentrated in one place though so you
don't have to run several cables per bike (I have multiple rear lights
and a bike-mounted MP3 player).

Removable lights are impractical in another sense as well. You can't
park the bike unattended without dataching and schlepping all that
stuff. Else you might come back to a safely locked bike but all those
accessories are gone. That's real fun at night.

Regarding those 18650 battery packs I have to say that is one of the
(very few) areas where bicycles can outshine cars. I just had my 2nd car
battery fail within the warranty period but the bike batteries keep
going like the Energizer bunny. Ok, they are modern Li-Ion technology
while the cars have ye olde lead-acid batteries.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #124  
Old February 12th 18, 11:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,428
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 10:45:37 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 9:42 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-12 07:56, sms wrote:


The key to getting more people out on bicycles is to promote equipment
that allows them to ride to work or school in normal clothes, and
provide routes that make the ride practical.


Amen! Many people do not understand this and that includes a lot here in
the NG.


Because it is mostly enthusiasts in the NG. We need to understand how
normal people think sic.


This place is crawling with normal people on bikes, particularly on a dry day.
I was totally miserable in bike traffic this morning.

I don't think any of the normal people I rode with this morning had DRLs -- maybe a few. I wasn't paying attention. Most of the normal people I ride with would laugh at needing a 1000 lumen light to ride in broad daylight -- or any light. It's the serious, non-normal cyclists who are convinced they need special DRLs.

Look for DRLS: https://bikeportland.org/2011/06/22/...r-photos-55300 I think I saw some blinkies.

https://bikeportland.org/2013/05/06/...e-design-86376 -- one guy in a safety vest.

What gets these people on bikes is sunshine, a Bohemian culture, some on-street bike lanes and close-in neighborhoods. Maybe traffic calming on some of the bike boulevards, but people were using those before they were designated boulevards.


-- Jay Beattie.
  #125  
Old February 12th 18, 11:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,548
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2018-02-12 10:33, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 9:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-12 08:51, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 8:03 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Simple: When clicking the light on you must stand over it or near it.
It could, for example, issue three short flashes after turn-on for
batt-ok, two flashes for "enough but not for more than a few hours"
and on flash for "it'll be empty very soon".

That's reasonable for a USB powered light with Li-Ion batteries. For a
device running on AA or AAA batteries, not really, because different
chemistry AA batteries have very different voltages and discharge
curves.

Battery voltage for primary D, C, AA, AAA, AAAA cells:
Alkaline-manganese dioxide: 1.5V. Linear voltage degradation
NiMH: 1.2V with almost do voltage degradation until fully
discharged.
Primary Lithium (LiFeS2): up to 1.83V, typically 1.7V, discharged
if 1.6V or less. Decreasing voltage during discharge, not quite linear.

I have seen a device where there was a switch to flip for NiMH versus
Alkaline to account for the different voltages in order to provide a
more accurate low battery warning, though no option for LiFeS2.



You could provide a zero-cost alkaline-NiMH function swap by, for
example, pressing the on-off button for 3sec. Not necessary though
because more rear lights are a bit dim with 1.2V NiMH and I bet 99% of
riders use AAA cells. So just provide a lo-bat warning for alkaline
and that goes a long way.

Of course, for that to work the IC designers must be competent enough
to include a decent bandgap reference. You wouldn't believe how many
aren't.

It doesn't have to be accurate, just ballpark. Mainly because almost
nobody remembers how many hours the recent set of batteries has been
used.

Another near-zero cost method would be to provide a coarse timer.
5h-10-15h-20h-25h. Simple RC or relaxation oscillator, one through
five flashes for status, done. Or just count the number of blinks.
Serious riders know how long batteries of their choice will last so
they can then decide at 15h or 20h to change them out.

Product design can be quite simple and cheap if we just think outside
the box and most of all try the designed products ourselves. A bike
accessory manufacturer should preferably hire ... riders.


Yes, but they need to hire riders that aren't geeks if they want to
design something usable.


Ideally they should be commuting MTB riders. That guarantees a thorough
quality test when these guys go offroad. My MTB has a top load platform
that rides an inch above the panniers. Normally there is a trunk affixed
to it but I can take that off and strap a customer prototype to it, pump
the rear shock to a punishing 230psi and take the bike on a gnarly
singletrack.


To do low-battery right on a light where you don't know what type of
batteries will be used, you can't do correlation, you need an optical
solution, like an opto-isolator inside that tracks the light output of
the LEDs and indicates when intensity is falling, independent of battery
type. For internal rechargeable Li-Ion batteries it's easy to roughly
correlate voltage with remaining capacity.

And seriously, while geeks may count blinks and program the battery type
via button presses, not everyone that bicycles is an engineer. It's hard
enough to explain how to cycle through the different modes.


Cyclists don't have to use it, they can also just turn it on and ignore
the indicator flashes.


The battery indicator on my Lezyne is simple and perfect. Green 50%.
Yellow =11-50%. Red 10% or less. I don't need a bar graph LCD or a
digital readout.


That's good. Unfortunately adds cost and that's a problem for the cheapo
crowd.


I saw "the perfect light" at one Interbike because you could program the
modes including intensity and flash rate via button presses. Since many
lights keep the DRL flasher at full intensity, which is unnecessary, I
thought that this was a good idea. But it was way too complex for the
normal rider. A software person would get frustrated and dump their
herbal tea onto the light.



My rear flashing lights only have one itensity, full. Good enough.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #126  
Old February 13th 18, 03:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,967
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Mon, 12 Feb 2018 07:52:45 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 8:25:55 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 5:00 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

No, Joerg is claiming that ordinary StVZO tail lights that are visible from
500 meters in Europe are not good enough for his and fellow Californians'
impaired sense of vision, and why he feels tail lights that feature 5000 ft+
visibility are preferable. And he is trying to confuse what can actually be
powered by dynamo with what he "remembers" seeing, back then, on inspecified
cycles in traffic.


The StVZO lights are woefully inadequate. Don't forget that you need one
that is visible in the daytime as well.


You need a daytime taillight exactly as much as you need a tall flippy flag.
In fact, the flippy flag is more visible under many circumstances.

Here you go:
http://www.parkerflags.com/Bicycle-Flags-Prodlist.html

You can't be too safe!

- Frank Krygowski


Some interesting statistics.

Thailand passed a law some years ago that all motorcycles must have
their lights on when being operated. Day or night, the normal front
and rear lights must be on when the vehicle is moving.

The results: These lighted vehicles are now involved in 73% of all
highway accidents, in fact these lighted vehicles now account for more
accidents then all other vehicles combined.

Amazing how lights can make you safe in one hemisphere while
(apparently) doing little or nothing to make you safe in another.



Interestingly, bicycles, although bright lights are rarely seen, make
up about 2% of highway accidents in Thailand. about the same as in the
U.S.





--
Cheers,

John B.

  #127  
Old February 13th 18, 07:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,202
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 12/02/18 14:25, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 5:00 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

No, Joerg is claiming that ordinary StVZO tail lights that are visible
from
500 meters in Europe are not good enough for his and fellow Californians'
impaired sense of vision, and why he feels tail lights that feature
5000 ft+
visibility are preferable.* And he is trying to confuse what can
actually be
powered by dynamo with what he "remembers" seeing, back then, on
inspecified
cycles in traffic.


The StVZO lights are woefully inadequate. Don't forget that you need one
that is visible in the daytime as well. You don't need a 1500 lumen tail
light, but many are ridiculously weak, 10 lumens, or even less.

One that looks reasonable is
https://www.lezyne.com/product-led-sport-laserdrive.php with flash
modes up to 250 lumens for daytime flash mode. But I don't see a way to
mount it to a rear rack.


Personally I would not be bolting lasers to the rear of my bile when for
various reasons they may shine in peoples eyes.

Must say

https://www.lezyne.com/product-led-s...p#.WoKA3q3AL0o

Looks quite handy for one of my bikes that doesn't have a dynamo.
Decent run time at 15 lumens.
  #128  
Old February 13th 18, 02:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 175
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2018 07:52:45 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 8:25:55 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 5:00 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

No, Joerg is claiming that ordinary StVZO tail lights that are visible from
500 meters in Europe are not good enough for his and fellow Californians'
impaired sense of vision, and why he feels tail lights that feature 5000 ft+
visibility are preferable. And he is trying to confuse what can actually be
powered by dynamo with what he "remembers" seeing, back then, on inspecified
cycles in traffic.

The StVZO lights are woefully inadequate. Don't forget that you need one
that is visible in the daytime as well.


You need a daytime taillight exactly as much as you need a tall flippy flag.
In fact, the flippy flag is more visible under many circumstances.

Here you go:
http://www.parkerflags.com/Bicycle-Flags-Prodlist.html

You can't be too safe!

- Frank Krygowski


Some interesting statistics.

Thailand passed a law some years ago that all motorcycles must have
their lights on when being operated. Day or night, the normal front
and rear lights must be on when the vehicle is moving.

The results: These lighted vehicles are now involved in 73% of all
highway accidents, in fact these lighted vehicles now account for more
accidents then all other vehicles combined.

Amazing how lights can make you safe in one hemisphere while
(apparently) doing little or nothing to make you safe in another.



Interestingly, bicycles, although bright lights are rarely seen, make
up about 2% of highway accidents in Thailand. about the same as in the
U.S.





--
Cheers,

John B.


So what was the accident rate for motorcycles before? 50%? 90%? One
number doesn't give a lot of insight here.

  #129  
Old February 13th 18, 07:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,333
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On 2/13/2018 5:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2018 07:52:45 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 8:25:55 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 5:00 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

No, Joerg is claiming that ordinary StVZO tail lights that are visible from
500 meters in Europe are not good enough for his and fellow Californians'
impaired sense of vision, and why he feels tail lights that feature 5000 ft+
visibility are preferable. And he is trying to confuse what can actually be
powered by dynamo with what he "remembers" seeing, back then, on inspecified
cycles in traffic.

The StVZO lights are woefully inadequate. Don't forget that you need one
that is visible in the daytime as well.

You need a daytime taillight exactly as much as you need a tall flippy flag.
In fact, the flippy flag is more visible under many circumstances.

Here you go:
http://www.parkerflags.com/Bicycle-Flags-Prodlist.html

You can't be too safe!

- Frank Krygowski


Some interesting statistics.

Thailand passed a law some years ago that all motorcycles must have
their lights on when being operated. Day or night, the normal front
and rear lights must be on when the vehicle is moving.

The results: These lighted vehicles are now involved in 73% of all
highway accidents, in fact these lighted vehicles now account for more
accidents then all other vehicles combined.

Amazing how lights can make you safe in one hemisphere while
(apparently) doing little or nothing to make you safe in another.



Interestingly, bicycles, although bright lights are rarely seen, make
up about 2% of highway accidents in Thailand. about the same as in the
U.S.





--
Cheers,

John B.


So what was the accident rate for motorcycles before? 50%? 90%? One
number doesn't give a lot of insight here.


LOL, exactly the right question. Also, what else changed besides the
lighting requirement?

Some people don't WANT to understand the difference between correlation
and causation!

  #130  
Old February 13th 18, 10:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,428
Default Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 10:54:32 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/13/2018 5:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2018 07:52:45 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 8:25:55 AM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 5:00 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

No, Joerg is claiming that ordinary StVZO tail lights that are visible from
500 meters in Europe are not good enough for his and fellow Californians'
impaired sense of vision, and why he feels tail lights that feature 5000 ft+
visibility are preferable. And he is trying to confuse what can actually be
powered by dynamo with what he "remembers" seeing, back then, on inspecified
cycles in traffic.

The StVZO lights are woefully inadequate. Don't forget that you need one
that is visible in the daytime as well.

You need a daytime taillight exactly as much as you need a tall flippy flag.
In fact, the flippy flag is more visible under many circumstances.

Here you go:
http://www.parkerflags.com/Bicycle-Flags-Prodlist.html

You can't be too safe!

- Frank Krygowski

Some interesting statistics.

Thailand passed a law some years ago that all motorcycles must have
their lights on when being operated. Day or night, the normal front
and rear lights must be on when the vehicle is moving.

The results: These lighted vehicles are now involved in 73% of all
highway accidents, in fact these lighted vehicles now account for more
accidents then all other vehicles combined.

Amazing how lights can make you safe in one hemisphere while
(apparently) doing little or nothing to make you safe in another.



Interestingly, bicycles, although bright lights are rarely seen, make
up about 2% of highway accidents in Thailand. about the same as in the
U.S.





--
Cheers,

John B.


So what was the accident rate for motorcycles before? 50%? 90%? One
number doesn't give a lot of insight here.


LOL, exactly the right question. Also, what else changed besides the
lighting requirement?

Some people don't WANT to understand the difference between correlation
and causation!


When it comes to DRLs, correlation is about all we have. I haven't seen a single study where are driver claimed he or she saw a bicyclist and avoided an accident during daylight hours because of a light.

Jackets seem to be scoring well:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...25753517313528

Here's the famous DRL study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...01457512002606

The latter study was, of course, the famous Odense, Denmark study where the subjects used a Reellight. https://www.reelight.com/products/hu...nt=34453441105

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM6E5PBKPqg Awesome! In bright daylight, that will have motorists covering their eyes to avoid being blinded! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBLvQGfeXSQ

Joerg, problem solved. This light even reduced "solo accidents" by 27%! Slap on one of these magnetic blinkies and eliminate one out of four gnarly-trail crashes. Remember, the face your plant is your own.

-- Jay Beattie.



 




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