$500 to improve my bike

I'm getting conflicting advice. My Cannondale aluminium framed bike is
feeling neither quick or responsive but the frame is just the right
size. I'd like to upgrade.

Two options: 1.) better, lighter wheels
2.) upgrade from Shimano 105 to Ultegra.

Suggestions, advice, opinions wanted.

Thanks,

Stan Winikoff

On May 22, 1:59 pm, winikoff wrote:
I'm getting conflicting advice. My Cannondale aluminium framed bike is
feeling neither quick or responsive but the frame is just the right
size. I'd like to upgrade.

Two options: 1.) better, lighter wheels
2.) upgrade from Shimano 105 to Ultegra.

Suggestions, advice, opinions wanted.


Pump up the tires. Oil the chain and axles.

On 22 May, 21:59, winikoff wrote:
I'm getting conflicting advice. My Cannondale aluminium framed bike is
feeling neither quick or responsive but the frame is just the right
size. I'd like to upgrade.

Two options: *1.) better, lighter wheels
* * * * * * * * * * *2.) upgrade from Shimano 105 to Ultegra.

Suggestions, advice, opinions wanted.


The snap is in the legs not the bike. What may make a difference is
appropriate gearing and crank lengtgh and proper conditioning of the
legs before straining them. Look also to saddle and shoe comfort and
lastly appropriate handlebar size. A good set of wheels is essential
to show the qualities of a good frame and vice-verse. As long as
everything else is reasonable, then anything above is just kudos. If
you have not previously experimented with tyres, now is the time.

On 22 May, 22:09, Dan O wrote:
On May 22, 1:59 pm, winikoff wrote:

I'm getting conflicting advice. My Cannondale aluminium framed bike is
feeling neither quick or responsive but the frame is just the right
size. I'd like to upgrade.

Two options: *1.) better, lighter wheels
* * * * * * * * * * *2.) upgrade from Shimano 105 to Ultegra.

Suggestions, advice, opinions wanted.

Pump up the tires. *Oil the chain and axles.

Yep, oiling the chain can transform the feel of a bike under power.

On May 22, 3:59*pm, winikoff wrote:
I'm getting conflicting advice. My Cannondale aluminium framed bike is
feeling neither quick or responsive but the frame is just the right
size. I'd like to upgrade.

Two options: *1.) better, lighter wheels
* * * * * * * * * * *2.) upgrade from Shimano 105 to Ultegra.

Suggestions, advice, opinions wanted.


Upgrade the tires. Unless you're actually racing, then have some
custom wheels built with red nipples. Red makes anything faster.

On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:59:13 -0700 (PDT), winikoff
wrote:

I'm getting conflicting advice. My Cannondale aluminium framed bike is
feeling neither quick or responsive but the frame is just the right
size. I'd like to upgrade.

Two options: 1.) better, lighter wheels
2.) upgrade from Shimano 105 to Ultegra.

Suggestions, advice, opinions wanted.

Thanks,

Stan Winikoff



Dear Stan,

Unfortunately, most of what you'll feel in terms of "quick" is
psychological.

Analytic Cycling is a good place to start looking at the physics of
lighter or more aero wheels. The site offers examples of several
situations with the predicted differences for identical riders using
different wheels.

***

"Our riders jump for the final sprint with 250 meters to go [already
going 10 m/s]. Our Standard Rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Our
Test Rider is on Specialized tri-spokes. Both riders jump at the same
time with the same initial speed. Both riders have the same power
profile (see plot below). They are identical in all other respects.
Which one gets to the finish line first?"

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 1 meter or 0.08 seconds."
http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsSprint_Page.html

No one can "feel" a meter's difference in acceleration over 250
meters. The calculator will let you play with other exciting wheels
that yield equally minute differences.

1/250 = 0.4%

***

"Our riders are going away in a break with 2 km to go. Our Standard
Rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Out Test Rider is on Specialized
tri-spokes. Both riders jump at the same time with the same power and
initial speed. They are identical in all other respects. Which one
gets to the finish line first?"

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 14.6 meters or 1.2 seconds
and would be riding at about 0.2 meters per second faster."
http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsBreak_Page.html

Again, no one can "feel" a 14.6 meter difference in 2,000 meters.

14.6/2000 = 0.73%

***

"Our standard rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Our test rider is
riding Specialized tri-spokes. Both riders jumped from a criterium
corner with the same initial speed. The riders are the same in all
other respects. For the same power output, which one will be ahead at
the end of 100 meters? By how much?"

"The motion equations say that the rider on the Specialized wheels
will be ahead by 18 cm after 100 meters, or about 0.015 seconds even
though the Specialized wheels are heavier by 49 gm and have higher
rotational inertia."
http://www.analyticcycling.com/Wheel...rner_Page.html

The heavier but more aerodynamic wheelset wins in a 100 meter jump out
of the corner--by a whole 180 millimeters, seven inches.

0.18 /100 = 0.18%

***

"Our riders are doing a long, 5 km climb on an 8% slope. Our Standard
Rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Out Test Rider is on Specialized
tri-spokes. Both riders start at the same time with the same initial
speed. They are identical in all other respects. Which one gets to the
top first?"

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 2.5 meters or 0.5 second at
the top. Change the slope to a 13% slope and the Specialized rider
would be behind by 1 meter."
http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsClimb_Page.html

Even the most pea-sensitive princess would have trouble feeling a 1 to
2.5 meter difference after 5,000 meters up an 8% to 13% slope.

1~2.5 / 5000 = 0.02% ~ 0.05%

Stack two standard boxes of computer paper on top of each other, each
with 2400 sheets. Now remove one or two sheets.

***

The sad truth is that dramatic reductions in wheel weight and wind
drag are swamped by the overall mass and aerodynamics of the rider,
who is ten times or more the size of the bike.

In other words, lighter or more aerodynamic wheels (hard to get both)
do indeed offer objective speed improvements, but the effect is on the
order of 1 meter in a 250 meter sprint, starting at 22 mph, less than
1%.

But if $500 is burning a hole in your pocket that only new equipment
can put out, the usual advice on RBT is to throw it onto wheels to try
to smother the flames and enjoy the psychological benefits.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On 05/22/2010 04:59 PM, winikoff wrote:
I'm getting conflicting advice. My Cannondale aluminium framed bike is
feeling neither quick or responsive but the frame is just the right
size. I'd like to upgrade.

Two options: 1.) better, lighter wheels
2.) upgrade from Shimano 105 to Ultegra.

Suggestions, advice, opinions wanted.

Thanks,

Stan Winikoff



$500 would *buy* either of my bikes if I were having a short week, so
I'm no help here :P

nate

(and there's one in the garage that I'd give you for the asking...)

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 05/22/2010 05:43 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:59:13 -0700 (PDT), winikoff
wrote:

I'm getting conflicting advice. My Cannondale aluminium framed bike is
feeling neither quick or responsive but the frame is just the right
size. I'd like to upgrade.

Two options: 1.) better, lighter wheels
2.) upgrade from Shimano 105 to Ultegra.

Suggestions, advice, opinions wanted.

Thanks,

Stan Winikoff



Dear Stan,

Unfortunately, most of what you'll feel in terms of "quick" is
psychological.

Analytic Cycling is a good place to start looking at the physics of
lighter or more aero wheels. The site offers examples of several
situations with the predicted differences for identical riders using
different wheels.

***

"Our riders jump for the final sprint with 250 meters to go [already
going 10 m/s]. Our Standard Rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Our
Test Rider is on Specialized tri-spokes. Both riders jump at the same
time with the same initial speed. Both riders have the same power
profile (see plot below). They are identical in all other respects.
Which one gets to the finish line first?"

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 1 meter or 0.08 seconds."
http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsSprint_Page.html

No one can "feel" a meter's difference in acceleration over 250
meters. The calculator will let you play with other exciting wheels
that yield equally minute differences.

1/250 = 0.4%

***

"Our riders are going away in a break with 2 km to go. Our Standard
Rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Out Test Rider is on Specialized
tri-spokes. Both riders jump at the same time with the same power and
initial speed. They are identical in all other respects. Which one
gets to the finish line first?"

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 14.6 meters or 1.2 seconds
and would be riding at about 0.2 meters per second faster."
http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsBreak_Page.html

Again, no one can "feel" a 14.6 meter difference in 2,000 meters.

14.6/2000 = 0.73%

***

"Our standard rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Our test rider is
riding Specialized tri-spokes. Both riders jumped from a criterium
corner with the same initial speed. The riders are the same in all
other respects. For the same power output, which one will be ahead at
the end of 100 meters? By how much?"

"The motion equations say that the rider on the Specialized wheels
will be ahead by 18 cm after 100 meters, or about 0.015 seconds even
though the Specialized wheels are heavier by 49 gm and have higher
rotational inertia."
http://www.analyticcycling.com/Wheel...rner_Page.html

The heavier but more aerodynamic wheelset wins in a 100 meter jump out
of the corner--by a whole 180 millimeters, seven inches.

0.18 /100 = 0.18%

***

"Our riders are doing a long, 5 km climb on an 8% slope. Our Standard
Rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Out Test Rider is on Specialized
tri-spokes. Both riders start at the same time with the same initial
speed. They are identical in all other respects. Which one gets to the
top first?"

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 2.5 meters or 0.5 second at
the top. Change the slope to a 13% slope and the Specialized rider
would be behind by 1 meter."
http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsClimb_Page.html

Even the most pea-sensitive princess would have trouble feeling a 1 to
2.5 meter difference after 5,000 meters up an 8% to 13% slope.

1~2.5 / 5000 = 0.02% ~ 0.05%

Stack two standard boxes of computer paper on top of each other, each
with 2400 sheets. Now remove one or two sheets.

***

The sad truth is that dramatic reductions in wheel weight and wind
drag are swamped by the overall mass and aerodynamics of the rider,
who is ten times or more the size of the bike.

In other words, lighter or more aerodynamic wheels (hard to get both)
do indeed offer objective speed improvements, but the effect is on the
order of 1 meter in a 250 meter sprint, starting at 22 mph, less than
1%.

But if $500 is burning a hole in your pocket that only new equipment
can put out, the usual advice on RBT is to throw it onto wheels to try
to smother the flames and enjoy the psychological benefits.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

If phsychological effect is what you're after, I wonder if a Phil BB or
set of hubs might not be the best bang for the buck. (and from what I
hear, they're nice durable pieces too, so the money wouldn't be
completely wasted...)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Sell it and then sink that and $500 into a Carbon Fiber with the same size.

winikoff wrote:
I'm getting conflicting advice. My Cannondale aluminium framed bike is
feeling neither quick or responsive but the frame is just the right
size. I'd like to upgrade.

Two options: 1.) better, lighter wheels
2.) upgrade from Shimano 105 to Ultegra.

Suggestions, advice, opinions wanted.

Thanks,

Stan Winikoff



--
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Roman Catholic Church

On May 22, 6:21*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 05/22/2010 05:43 PM, wrote:



On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:59:13 -0700 (PDT), winikoff
*wrote:

I'm getting conflicting advice. My Cannondale aluminium framed bike is
feeling neither quick or responsive but the frame is just the right
size. I'd like to upgrade.

Two options: *1.) better, lighter wheels
* * * * * * * * * * *2.) upgrade from Shimano 105 to Ultegra.

Suggestions, advice, opinions wanted.

Thanks,

Stan Winikoff



Dear Stan,

Unfortunately, most of what you'll feel in terms of "quick" is
psychological.

Analytic Cycling is a good place to start looking at the physics of
lighter or more aero wheels. The site offers examples of several
situations with the predicted differences for identical riders using
different wheels.

***

"Our riders jump for the final sprint with 250 meters to go [already
going 10 m/s]. Our Standard Rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Our
Test Rider is on Specialized tri-spokes. Both riders jump at the same
time with the same initial speed. Both riders have the same power
profile (see plot below). They are identical in all other respects.
Which one gets to the finish line first?"

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 1 meter or 0.08 seconds."
* *http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsSprint_Page.html

No one can "feel" a meter's difference in acceleration over 250
meters. The calculator will let you play with other exciting wheels
that yield equally minute differences.

* 1/250 = 0.4%

***

"Our riders are going away in a break with 2 km to go. Our Standard
Rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Out Test Rider is on Specialized
tri-spokes. Both riders jump at the same time with the same power and
initial speed. They are identical in all other respects. Which one
gets to the finish line first?"

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 14.6 meters or 1.2 seconds
and would be riding at about 0.2 meters per second faster."
*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsBreak_Page.html

Again, no one can "feel" a 14.6 meter difference in 2,000 meters.

* 14.6/2000 = 0.73%

***

"Our standard rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Our test rider is
riding Specialized tri-spokes. Both riders jumped from a criterium
corner with the same initial speed. The riders are the same in all
other respects. For the same power output, which one will be ahead at
the end of 100 meters? By how much?"

"The motion equations say that the rider on the Specialized wheels
will be ahead by 18 cm after 100 meters, or about 0.015 seconds even
though the Specialized wheels are heavier by 49 gm and have higher
rotational inertia."
*http://www.analyticcycling.com/Wheel...rner_Page.html

The heavier but more aerodynamic wheelset wins in a 100 meter jump out
of the corner--by a whole 180 millimeters, seven inches.

* 0.18 /100 = 0.18%

***

"Our riders are doing a long, 5 km climb on an 8% slope. Our Standard
Rider is on 32 spoke standard wheels. Out Test Rider is on Specialized
tri-spokes. Both riders start at the same time with the same initial
speed. They are identical in all other respects. Which one gets to the
top first?"

"The Specialized rider would be ahead by 2.5 meters or 0.5 second at
the top. Change the slope to a 13% slope and the Specialized rider
would be behind by 1 meter."
*http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsClimb_Page.html

Even the most pea-sensitive princess would have trouble feeling a 1 to
2.5 meter difference after 5,000 meters up an 8% to 13% slope.

* 1~2.5 / 5000 = 0.02% ~ 0.05%

Stack two standard boxes of computer paper on top of each other, each
with 2400 sheets. Now remove one or two sheets.

***

The sad truth is that dramatic reductions in wheel weight and wind
drag are swamped by the overall mass and aerodynamics of the rider,
who is ten times or more the size of the bike.

In other words, lighter or more aerodynamic wheels (hard to get both)
do indeed offer objective speed improvements, but the effect is on the
order of 1 meter in a 250 meter sprint, starting at 22 mph, less than
1%.

But if $500 is burning a hole in your pocket that only new equipment
can put out, the usual advice on RBT is to throw it onto wheels to try
to smother the flames and enjoy the psychological benefits.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

If phsychological effect is what you're after, I wonder if a Phil BB or
set of hubs might not be the best bang for the buck. *(and from what I
hear, they're nice durable pieces too, so the money wouldn't be
completely wasted...)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

A Phil headset is much more visible to everyone.

Cam