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Brutal driver walks



 
 
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  #41  
Old February 6th 16, 09:11 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
MrCheerful
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Posts: 4,757
Default Brutal driver walks

On 06/02/2016 20:04, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 5:37:13 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 06/02/2016 17:31, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 2:21:16 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 03/02/2016 23:48, Tom Crispin wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-35472617

It is time that failing to provide driver details results in a lifetime driving ban.

This loophole must be closed.

Can you imagine the public outcry if the owner of a bicycle whose vehicle was used to deliberately harm an innocent bystander was allowed to get away with failing to provide the rider's details? I wonder why we have never heard of such a case..

Forget the offence for a moment - it could be anything from picking the
council's flowers to bank robbery - would you impose a draconian (not to
say vindictive) penalty on somebody against whom there is no evidence,
merely on the basis that there is no evidence against him and that you
"think" that he should have confessed to something you suspect him of
committing even though there is no evidence to support that belief to an
acceptable standard of proof?

Is that really what you mean?

No.

What I mean is that failing to give driver details should be treated the same way as perverting the course of justice.


And in a case where quite genuinely the owner does not know?
Should he/she be liable to a max. sentence of life imprisonment?


It would not be for me to predetermine the outcome of a trial for perverting the course of justice.


Do you think it would be an appropriate sentence for someone that has no
idea of who was driving their car at a particular moment?
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  #42  
Old February 6th 16, 09:29 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
jnugent
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Posts: 11,574
Default Brutal driver walks

On 06/02/2016 17:31, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 2:21:16 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 03/02/2016 23:48, Tom Crispin wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-35472617

It is time that failing to provide driver details results in a lifetime driving ban.

This loophole must be closed.

Can you imagine the public outcry if the owner of a bicycle whose vehicle was used to deliberately harm an innocent bystander was allowed to get away with failing to provide the rider's details? I wonder why we have never heard of such a case..


Forget the offence for a moment - it could be anything from picking the
council's flowers to bank robbery - would you impose a draconian (not to
say vindictive) penalty on somebody against whom there is no evidence,
merely on the basis that there is no evidence against him and that you
"think" that he should have confessed to something you suspect him of
committing even though there is no evidence to support that belief to an
acceptable standard of proof?

Is that really what you mean?


No.

What I mean is that failing to give driver details should be treated the same way as perverting the course of justice.


Despite the possibility - which would be irrefutable in any particular
case - that the vehicle's owner does not know who was driving?

Would you apply this to all offences or would it uniquely apply to the
registered keepers of motor vehicles?
  #43  
Old February 6th 16, 09:33 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
jnugent
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Posts: 11,574
Default Brutal driver walks

On 06/02/2016 19:02, Phil W Lee wrote:
MrCheerful considered Sat, 06 Feb 2016
17:37:14 +0000 the perfect time to write:

On 06/02/2016 17:31, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 2:21:16 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 03/02/2016 23:48, Tom Crispin wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-35472617

It is time that failing to provide driver details results in a lifetime driving ban.

This loophole must be closed.

Can you imagine the public outcry if the owner of a bicycle whose vehicle was used to deliberately harm an innocent bystander was allowed to get away with failing to provide the rider's details? I wonder why we have never heard of such a case..

Forget the offence for a moment - it could be anything from picking the
council's flowers to bank robbery - would you impose a draconian (not to
say vindictive) penalty on somebody against whom there is no evidence,
merely on the basis that there is no evidence against him and that you
"think" that he should have confessed to something you suspect him of
committing even though there is no evidence to support that belief to an
acceptable standard of proof?

Is that really what you mean?

No.

What I mean is that failing to give driver details should be treated the same way as perverting the course of justice.


And in a case where quite genuinely the owner does not know?
Should he/she be liable to a max. sentence of life imprisonment?


It is the absolute responsibility of the registered keeper of a
shotgun to know where it is at all times


Nonsense on stilts.

I habitually drive a rather nice car ATM which belongs to my son who is
living in another country. I am insured to drive it and authorised to
deal with the insurers and part of our agreement is that I look after
the vehicle, get it serviced, pay the Road Tax, see to any repairs, etc.

The registered keeper cannot POSSIBLY "know where it is at all times".

Only a raving lunatic could see that as a failing.

and to ensure that it does
not fall into the hands of someone not authorised to use it.


And as far as M'Lud Lee is concerned, it is an offence punishable by a
lifetime disqualification from driving to have your car TWOCd.


  #44  
Old February 6th 16, 09:34 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
jnugent
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Posts: 11,574
Default Brutal driver walks

On 06/02/2016 20:04, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 5:37:13 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 06/02/2016 17:31, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 2:21:16 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 03/02/2016 23:48, Tom Crispin wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-35472617

It is time that failing to provide driver details results in a lifetime driving ban.

This loophole must be closed.

Can you imagine the public outcry if the owner of a bicycle whose vehicle was used to deliberately harm an innocent bystander was allowed to get away with failing to provide the rider's details? I wonder why we have never heard of such a case..

Forget the offence for a moment - it could be anything from picking the
council's flowers to bank robbery - would you impose a draconian (not to
say vindictive) penalty on somebody against whom there is no evidence,
merely on the basis that there is no evidence against him and that you
"think" that he should have confessed to something you suspect him of
committing even though there is no evidence to support that belief to an
acceptable standard of proof?

Is that really what you mean?

No.

What I mean is that failing to give driver details should be treated the same way as perverting the course of justice.


And in a case where quite genuinely the owner does not know?
Should he/she be liable to a max. sentence of life imprisonment?


It would not be for me to predetermine the outcome of a trial for perverting the course of justice.


How would you expect any trial to go where the prosecution alleges
something it cannot possibly prove and which is denied?

How big a compensation payment for malicious prosecution should the
innocent owner expect to be awarded?




  #45  
Old February 7th 16, 12:33 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Tom Crispin[_5_]
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Posts: 587
Default Brutal driver walks

On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 8:11:20 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 06/02/2016 20:04, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 5:37:13 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 06/02/2016 17:31, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 2:21:16 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 03/02/2016 23:48, Tom Crispin wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-35472617

It is time that failing to provide driver details results in a lifetime driving ban.

This loophole must be closed.

Can you imagine the public outcry if the owner of a bicycle whose vehicle was used to deliberately harm an innocent bystander was allowed to get away with failing to provide the rider's details? I wonder why we have never heard of such a case..

Forget the offence for a moment - it could be anything from picking the
council's flowers to bank robbery - would you impose a draconian (not to
say vindictive) penalty on somebody against whom there is no evidence,
merely on the basis that there is no evidence against him and that you
"think" that he should have confessed to something you suspect him of
committing even though there is no evidence to support that belief to an
acceptable standard of proof?

Is that really what you mean?

No.

What I mean is that failing to give driver details should be treated the same way as perverting the course of justice.


And in a case where quite genuinely the owner does not know?
Should he/she be liable to a max. sentence of life imprisonment?


It would not be for me to predetermine the outcome of a trial for perverting the course of justice.


Do you think it would be an appropriate sentence for someone that has no
idea of who was driving their car at a particular moment?


Has it been established, in this case, that the registered keeper has no idea who was driving. Or is it simply a matter that the registered keeper is not saying who was driving?
  #46  
Old February 7th 16, 12:37 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Tom Crispin[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default Brutal driver walks

On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 8:35:13 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 06/02/2016 20:04, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 5:37:13 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 06/02/2016 17:31, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 2:21:16 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 03/02/2016 23:48, Tom Crispin wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-35472617

It is time that failing to provide driver details results in a lifetime driving ban.

This loophole must be closed.

Can you imagine the public outcry if the owner of a bicycle whose vehicle was used to deliberately harm an innocent bystander was allowed to get away with failing to provide the rider's details? I wonder why we have never heard of such a case..

Forget the offence for a moment - it could be anything from picking the
council's flowers to bank robbery - would you impose a draconian (not to
say vindictive) penalty on somebody against whom there is no evidence,
merely on the basis that there is no evidence against him and that you
"think" that he should have confessed to something you suspect him of
committing even though there is no evidence to support that belief to an
acceptable standard of proof?

Is that really what you mean?

No.

What I mean is that failing to give driver details should be treated the same way as perverting the course of justice.


And in a case where quite genuinely the owner does not know?
Should he/she be liable to a max. sentence of life imprisonment?


It would not be for me to predetermine the outcome of a trial for perverting the course of justice.


How would you expect any trial to go where the prosecution alleges
something it cannot possibly prove and which is denied?


It seems that the prosecution, in this case, have successfully proved that the registered keeper is refusing to give details of the driver.

How big a compensation payment for malicious prosecution should the
innocent owner expect to be awarded?



  #47  
Old February 7th 16, 01:52 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
MrCheerful
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,757
Default Brutal driver walks

On 06/02/2016 23:33, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 8:11:20 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 06/02/2016 20:04, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 5:37:13 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 06/02/2016 17:31, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 2:21:16 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 03/02/2016 23:48, Tom Crispin wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-35472617

It is time that failing to provide driver details results in a lifetime driving ban.

This loophole must be closed.

Can you imagine the public outcry if the owner of a bicycle whose vehicle was used to deliberately harm an innocent bystander was allowed to get away with failing to provide the rider's details? I wonder why we have never heard of such a case..

Forget the offence for a moment - it could be anything from picking the
council's flowers to bank robbery - would you impose a draconian (not to
say vindictive) penalty on somebody against whom there is no evidence,
merely on the basis that there is no evidence against him and that you
"think" that he should have confessed to something you suspect him of
committing even though there is no evidence to support that belief to an
acceptable standard of proof?

Is that really what you mean?

No.

What I mean is that failing to give driver details should be treated the same way as perverting the course of justice.


And in a case where quite genuinely the owner does not know?
Should he/she be liable to a max. sentence of life imprisonment?

It would not be for me to predetermine the outcome of a trial for perverting the course of justice.


Do you think it would be an appropriate sentence for someone that has no
idea of who was driving their car at a particular moment?


Has it been established, in this case, that the registered keeper has no idea who was driving. Or is it simply a matter that the registered keeper is not saying who was driving?

Let us assume that the registered keeper is completely unaware and
unable to establish the actual driver at the time of the incident. Is
it still suitable to convict the reg. keeper of 'perverting the course
of justice' with a max. possible sentence of life imprisonment for their
failure to know the driver?
  #48  
Old February 7th 16, 01:54 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
MrCheerful
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,757
Default Brutal driver walks

On 06/02/2016 23:37, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 8:35:13 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 06/02/2016 20:04, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 5:37:13 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 06/02/2016 17:31, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 2:21:16 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 03/02/2016 23:48, Tom Crispin wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-35472617

It is time that failing to provide driver details results in a lifetime driving ban.

This loophole must be closed.

Can you imagine the public outcry if the owner of a bicycle whose vehicle was used to deliberately harm an innocent bystander was allowed to get away with failing to provide the rider's details? I wonder why we have never heard of such a case..

Forget the offence for a moment - it could be anything from picking the
council's flowers to bank robbery - would you impose a draconian (not to
say vindictive) penalty on somebody against whom there is no evidence,
merely on the basis that there is no evidence against him and that you
"think" that he should have confessed to something you suspect him of
committing even though there is no evidence to support that belief to an
acceptable standard of proof?

Is that really what you mean?

No.

What I mean is that failing to give driver details should be treated the same way as perverting the course of justice.


And in a case where quite genuinely the owner does not know?
Should he/she be liable to a max. sentence of life imprisonment?

It would not be for me to predetermine the outcome of a trial for perverting the course of justice.


How would you expect any trial to go where the prosecution alleges
something it cannot possibly prove and which is denied?


It seems that the prosecution, in this case, have successfully proved that the registered keeper is refusing to give details of the driver.

How would you prove 'not knowing' to be 'refusal?

  #49  
Old February 7th 16, 02:16 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
jnugent
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Posts: 11,574
Default Brutal driver walks

On 06/02/2016 23:37, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 8:35:13 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 06/02/2016 20:04, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 5:37:13 PM UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 06/02/2016 17:31, Tom Crispin wrote:
On Thursday, February 4, 2016 at 2:21:16 PM UTC, JNugent wrote:
On 03/02/2016 23:48, Tom Crispin wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-35472617

It is time that failing to provide driver details results in a lifetime driving ban.

This loophole must be closed.

Can you imagine the public outcry if the owner of a bicycle whose vehicle was used to deliberately harm an innocent bystander was allowed to get away with failing to provide the rider's details? I wonder why we have never heard of such a case..

Forget the offence for a moment - it could be anything from picking the
council's flowers to bank robbery - would you impose a draconian (not to
say vindictive) penalty on somebody against whom there is no evidence,
merely on the basis that there is no evidence against him and that you
"think" that he should have confessed to something you suspect him of
committing even though there is no evidence to support that belief to an
acceptable standard of proof?

Is that really what you mean?

No.

What I mean is that failing to give driver details should be treated the same way as perverting the course of justice.


And in a case where quite genuinely the owner does not know?
Should he/she be liable to a max. sentence of life imprisonment?

It would not be for me to predetermine the outcome of a trial for perverting the course of justice.


How would you expect any trial to go where the prosecution alleges
something it cannot possibly prove and which is denied?


It seems that the prosecution, in this case, have successfully proved that the registered keeper is refusing to give details of the driver.


Reasonably or unreasonably?

In other words, lawfully or unlawfully?

How big a compensation payment for malicious prosecution should the
innocent owner expect to be awarded?


No attempt at an answer?

  #50  
Old February 7th 16, 07:40 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Alycidon
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Posts: 3,921
Default Brutal driver walks

On Saturday, 6 February 2016 23:37:40 UTC, Tom Crispin wrote:
It seems that the prosecution, in this case, have successfully proved that the registered keeper is refusing to give details of the driver.


That is why he has been fined and given six points.
 




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