torque wrench issues

On 4/24/2017 8:42 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:
As I said, "Cheap Sells". Walmart is also based on that
theory.

Back in the day, a man bought a well made, from good cloth, suit and
could wear it his whole life. Maybe even pass it down to his son when
he died. Now, that was cheap.

But that is no longer the style. Buy a $500 suit that he/she can wear
for the next 50 years. You're crazy. Better this $0.99 shirt that will
have to be replaced by Friday :-)

Buying a suit that one could wear one's whole life requires ignoring
fashion, or at least being where fashion changes but little and slowly.
(How would you feel if you had bought a 1960s Nehru suit good enough to
last your whole life?)

The analogy with bicycling is easy, of course.

My most-ridden bikes have maximum six cogs in back, friction shifters,
quill stems, and steel or aluminum frames. (OK, some might say the
aluminum was dabbling in fashion.) When others are hoping to somewhere
find a replacement non-radial-symmetrical four-bolt carbon fiber
chainring, I'll probably just grab a spare 110 mm BCD ring out of my
junk box and bolt it right on.

And speaking of fashion: Isn't a tattoo pretty similar to a permanent
Nehru suit?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:27:05 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B Slocomb wrote:
:Snap-on is a tool manufacturer that sells top grade tools, and very
:expensive tools they are too. They also own at least one company that
:makes and sells a cheaper brand.

:They guarantee their tools.

No. They don't. They pretend to. The actual warranty is crap, and
conditional on continuing to spend money with them, and good will with
your local pusher.
From my experience you are WAY off base. I know guys that have bought
old snapon tools at garage sales and had damaged ones replaced. And I
mean OLD tools. Mind you that was over 10 years ago. Liokely over 15.

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:23:57 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B Slocomb wrote:
:On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 12:04:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
:wrote:

:On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 09:43:46 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
:
:In 1969 Crafstman were USA forged (by SK if I recall) but
:that's all changed now. We use a lot of Snap On which is
:deathly expensive but well worth the price for heavily used
:items.
:
:The Craftsman brand is now owned by Stanley Black & Decker.
:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craftsman_(tools)
:Who owns which tool companies might be useful:
:http://toolguyd.com/tool-brands-corporate-affiliations/
:
:I recently bought a Craftsman 10 pc 3/8" drive metric socket wrench
:set #934554. The box was sealed closed, so I couldn't inspect it
:before buying. I wouldn't have bought it had I seen it in advance:
:http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-pc-6-pt-3-8-in-standard/p-00934553000P
:It works, but the design, finish, and overall quality are seriously
:lacking. However, it was only $10 (on sale), so I can't really
:complain.

:And that is exactly the point. "Cheap" sells.

:Harbor Freight started as a guy who imported a container full of cheap
:Chinese tools and sold them out of his garage. Walmart, the largest

Harbor Freight makes no bones about being cheap. Craftsman, on the
other hand, are one of many brands that replaced good quality goods
with crap, but still charge the same price they did when they sold
good stuff. The set Jeff bought can be had from HF for much less (and
very nearly the same stuff, they're both made by Apex for the
respective retailers.) HF's good line of tools are actually pretty
nice.

Correct. As I said, "Cheap Sells". Walmart is also based on that
theory.

Back in the day, a man bought a well made, from good cloth, suit and
could wear it his whole life. Maybe even pass it down to his son when
he died. Now, that was cheap.

But that is no longer the style. Buy a $500 suit that he/she can wear
for the next 50 years. You're crazy. Better this $0.99 shirt that will
have to be replaced by Friday :-)

Cheaper to replace than to launder. What's a commercial shirt laundry
cost today???

wrote:
:On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:27:05 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

:John B Slocomb wrote:
::Snap-on is a tool manufacturer that sells top grade tools, and very
::expensive tools they are too. They also own at least one company that
::makes and sells a cheaper brand.
:
::They guarantee their tools.
:
:No. They don't. They pretend to. The actual warranty is crap, and
:conditional on continuing to spend money with them, and good will with
:your local pusher.
: From my experience you are WAY off base. I know guys that have bought
ld snapon tools at garage sales and had damaged ones replaced. And I
:mean OLD tools. Mind you that was over 10 years ago. Liokely over 15.

Snap-on's supposed warranty requires that you prove that you bought the
tool. That is, the warranty is not transferrable. Your local pusher
can decide to exchange a tool (or repair it, or give a credit, or a
different replacement, in the event that it's not a current tool) not
in the possesion of its original owner (or the original owner who can't
prove he bought it 20 years ago). Or not. And he's going to do that
based on how likely it is he thinks it is you will buy stuff from him.

That's not a warranty worth ****.

And yes, I've had snap on dealers (who I had bought tools from) refuse
to replace tools I'd broken that they didn't sell me. (he lost out
big time for that, because it cost him a shop equipment sale.) you're in
Canada, perhaps they can't get away with that there. But that's a
common complaint in the US.

--
There's a rather large difference between ****ing on a 600V third rail
and a 33 kV power line.

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 03:04:18 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

wrote:
:On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:27:05 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

:John B Slocomb wrote:
::Snap-on is a tool manufacturer that sells top grade tools, and very
::expensive tools they are too. They also own at least one company that
::makes and sells a cheaper brand.
:
::They guarantee their tools.
:
:No. They don't. They pretend to. The actual warranty is crap, and
:conditional on continuing to spend money with them, and good will with
:your local pusher.
: From my experience you are WAY off base. I know guys that have bought
ld snapon tools at garage sales and had damaged ones replaced. And I
:mean OLD tools. Mind you that was over 10 years ago. Liokely over 15.

Snap-on's supposed warranty requires that you prove that you bought the
tool. That is, the warranty is not transferrable. Your local pusher
can decide to exchange a tool (or repair it, or give a credit, or a
different replacement, in the event that it's not a current tool) not
in the possesion of its original owner (or the original owner who can't
prove he bought it 20 years ago). Or not. And he's going to do that
based on how likely it is he thinks it is you will buy stuff from him.

That's not a warranty worth ****.

And yes, I've had snap on dealers (who I had bought tools from) refuse
to replace tools I'd broken that they didn't sell me. (he lost out
big time for that, because it cost him a shop equipment sale.) you're in
Canada, perhaps they can't get away with that there. But that's a
common complaint in the US.
Either it's different in Canada or things have really changed in the
last decade or two.

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 21:56:29 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/24/2017 8:42 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:
As I said, "Cheap Sells". Walmart is also based on that
theory.

Back in the day, a man bought a well made, from good cloth, suit and
could wear it his whole life. Maybe even pass it down to his son when
he died. Now, that was cheap.

But that is no longer the style. Buy a $500 suit that he/she can wear
for the next 50 years. You're crazy. Better this $0.99 shirt that will
have to be replaced by Friday :-)

Buying a suit that one could wear one's whole life requires ignoring
fashion, or at least being where fashion changes but little and slowly.
(How would you feel if you had bought a 1960s Nehru suit good enough to
last your whole life?)


But what is "style" My guess is that a decently cut 3 piece suit,
perhaps with the gold watch fob and chain, and a well shined pair of
wingtips would still be acceptable attire for negotiating a loan at
the bank :-)

Or even, if formal attire wasn't required, for giving your daughter
away.

My father used to brag that he had only one suit and he had been in
style a number of times since he had owned it :-)

As for the "Nehru suit", what can one say? "If you bought that you
deserve whatever you got" :-)

The analogy with bicycling is easy, of course.

My most-ridden bikes have maximum six cogs in back, friction shifters,
quill stems, and steel or aluminum frames. (OK, some might say the
aluminum was dabbling in fashion.) When others are hoping to somewhere
find a replacement non-radial-symmetrical four-bolt carbon fiber
chainring, I'll probably just grab a spare 110 mm BCD ring out of my
junk box and bolt it right on.

Somewhat the same as my father' suit. Been in style a number of times
since purchased :-)


And speaking of fashion: Isn't a tattoo pretty similar to a permanent
Nehru suit?

When I was in grade school my father hired a great uncle to do some
work around the place. This Uncle had been a sailor and claimed to
have been a stoker on a ship in the Great White Fleet and to be honest
was somewhat of a ne'er-do-well :-)

In any event, his upper body was pretty well covered with tattoos some
of them probably being 40, or more, years old. In later years, when
ever I had a yen to get a tattoo I remembered what my great uncle
looked like :-(

The tattoos may look nice when you get them but as the years go by
they tend to fade and all blend together. Not pretty at all.

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:14:46 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:23:57 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

John B Slocomb wrote:
:On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 12:04:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
:wrote:

:On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 09:43:46 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
:
:In 1969 Crafstman were USA forged (by SK if I recall) but
:that's all changed now. We use a lot of Snap On which is
:deathly expensive but well worth the price for heavily used
:items.
:
:The Craftsman brand is now owned by Stanley Black & Decker.
:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craftsman_(tools)
:Who owns which tool companies might be useful:
:http://toolguyd.com/tool-brands-corporate-affiliations/
:
:I recently bought a Craftsman 10 pc 3/8" drive metric socket wrench
:set #934554. The box was sealed closed, so I couldn't inspect it
:before buying. I wouldn't have bought it had I seen it in advance:
:http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-pc-6-pt-3-8-in-standard/p-00934553000P
:It works, but the design, finish, and overall quality are seriously
:lacking. However, it was only $10 (on sale), so I can't really
:complain.

:And that is exactly the point. "Cheap" sells.

:Harbor Freight started as a guy who imported a container full of cheap
:Chinese tools and sold them out of his garage. Walmart, the largest

Harbor Freight makes no bones about being cheap. Craftsman, on the
other hand, are one of many brands that replaced good quality goods
with crap, but still charge the same price they did when they sold
good stuff. The set Jeff bought can be had from HF for much less (and
very nearly the same stuff, they're both made by Apex for the
respective retailers.) HF's good line of tools are actually pretty
nice.

Correct. As I said, "Cheap Sells". Walmart is also based on that
theory.

Back in the day, a man bought a well made, from good cloth, suit and
could wear it his whole life. Maybe even pass it down to his son when
he died. Now, that was cheap.

But that is no longer the style. Buy a $500 suit that he/she can wear
for the next 50 years. You're crazy. Better this $0.99 shirt that will
have to be replaced by Friday :-)

Cheaper to replace than to launder. What's a commercial shirt laundry
cost today???

I have no idea. My wife believes that to hire someone to do something
that you can do your self is the height of foolishness. Plus, she says
that the laundry never does it right. :-)

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 03:04:18 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

wrote:
:On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:27:05 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
wrote:

:John B Slocomb wrote:
::Snap-on is a tool manufacturer that sells top grade tools, and very
::expensive tools they are too. They also own at least one company that
::makes and sells a cheaper brand.
:
::They guarantee their tools.
:
:No. They don't. They pretend to. The actual warranty is crap, and
:conditional on continuing to spend money with them, and good will with
:your local pusher.
: From my experience you are WAY off base. I know guys that have bought
ld snapon tools at garage sales and had damaged ones replaced. And I
:mean OLD tools. Mind you that was over 10 years ago. Liokely over 15.

Snap-on's supposed warranty requires that you prove that you bought the
tool. That is, the warranty is not transferrable. Your local pusher
can decide to exchange a tool (or repair it, or give a credit, or a
different replacement, in the event that it's not a current tool) not
in the possesion of its original owner (or the original owner who can't
prove he bought it 20 years ago). Or not. And he's going to do that
based on how likely it is he thinks it is you will buy stuff from him.

That's not a warranty worth ****.

I can't say for the actual wording of the guarantee but I can say that
over the years I have had a fair number of snap-on tools replaced with
no comment what so ever from the vendor. Both in the U.S. and in
foreign countries. As I said, on one contract where we were required
by the contract to use snap-on tools, we used to throw any broken
tools in a box and ship the box to the Jakarta Agent whenever the box
got full. He replaced the tools without comment and shipped them back.

And yes, I've had snap on dealers (who I had bought tools from) refuse
to replace tools I'd broken that they didn't sell me. (he lost out
big time for that, because it cost him a shop equipment sale.) you're in
Canada, perhaps they can't get away with that there. But that's a
common complaint in the US.

On 4/24/2017 8:56 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/24/2017 8:42 PM, John B Slocomb wrote:
As I said, "Cheap Sells". Walmart is also based on that
theory.

Back in the day, a man bought a well made, from good
cloth, suit and
could wear it his whole life. Maybe even pass it down to
his son when
he died. Now, that was cheap.

But that is no longer the style. Buy a $500 suit that
he/she can wear
for the next 50 years. You're crazy. Better this $0.99
shirt that will
have to be replaced by Friday :-)

Buying a suit that one could wear one's whole life requires
ignoring fashion, or at least being where fashion changes
but little and slowly. (How would you feel if you had bought
a 1960s Nehru suit good enough to last your whole life?)

The analogy with bicycling is easy, of course.

My most-ridden bikes have maximum six cogs in back, friction
shifters, quill stems, and steel or aluminum frames. (OK,
some might say the aluminum was dabbling in fashion.) When
others are hoping to somewhere find a replacement
non-radial-symmetrical four-bolt carbon fiber chainring,
I'll probably just grab a spare 110 mm BCD ring out of my
junk box and bolt it right on.

And speaking of fashion: Isn't a tattoo pretty similar to a
permanent Nehru suit?


Not really. Tattoos last forever!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 11:02:17 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote:

The tattoos may look nice when you get them but as the years go by
they tend to fade and all blend together. Not pretty at all.

I've been working with older adults for nearly 30 years and have seen
many decades-old tattoos (including a few real Sailor Jerrys). They
ain't pretty no moer. Many were just blobs on wrinkled skin. I look at
all these inked up millenials and think, "well, good luck with that when
you're 75."

I've never been able to figure out anything I'd want on me permanently.