Are Lemond frames that different?

In my search for a new road bike I test rode a 2003 Lemond Buenos
Aires. Based on my build and measurements taken at several bike shops
it was determined that a 57cm frame is the right one compared to 60cm
for most other regular framed bikes and 58cm for Specialized. I was
really wanting to ride the Lemond as it is steel and I like the ride
of my current steel framed bike. As part of the fitting he did have
me pedal on my current bike, in the trainer, to get an idea how I
currently ride. After that he said that my current bike setup is too
compact with my knees too forward resulting in an almost up/down
stroke, like I was standing on the pedals while seated. He then setup
the Lemond and I took it out for a ride. Well, when I rode the bike
it felt like I was really far back and my legs were more "pushing"
than pedaling, a really wierd feeling and totally different than the
other bikes I've tried. Everything else about the bike was great. I
know that Lemond has a more relaxed seat tube and longer top tube for
a given size but I wasn't expecting a totally different feeling.

When I returned to the shop and told the guy who fit me what the
sensation was like he said that I will get used to it and was actually
a more "powerful" position as my glutes are being used more than my
quads. I had him put the bike in the stand and measure the angle of
my knees to pedal position and sure enough my kneecap was behind the
spindle of the pedal by a pretty good amount. I mentioned this to him
and he said that the positioning was correct and that I would just
need to adjust to the fit and that once I did I would be in a much
more efficient, comfortable and powerful position. There was a fair
amount of room to move the saddle forward but he insisted that this is
the right position. The guy has been a racer and professional women's
team manager so I have to believe he knows a little bit about how a
bike should fit, but I'm still not sure.

What does everyone else think? Are Lemonds that much different or is
something wrong with the way this guy set the bike up? Any
suggestions on adjusting the bike or should I discard the Lemond
totally?

Mark

(Mark Sinderson) wrote in
om:
When I returned to the shop and told the guy who fit me what the
sensation was like he said that I will get used to it and was actually
a more "powerful" position as my glutes are being used more than my
quads.

That is the LeMond philosophy. Many people like it, especially people who
ride long distances with long hill climbs. If you mostly do short rides on
flat roads or are more into sprinting than climbing, then maybe you should
look for a more upright bike.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:55:02 +0000, Mark Sinderson wrote:

To answer the question of the title, yes, the Lemond is longer in the top
tube, for a given seat tube "size", than most other frames. The use of
the seat tube only as the determination of "size" is the problem here.

framed bike. As part of the fitting he did have me pedal on my current
bike, in the trainer, to get an idea how I currently ride. After that he
said that my current bike setup is too compact with my knees too forward
resulting in an almost up/down stroke,

As opposed to?

was great. I know that Lemond has a more relaxed seat tube and longer top
tube for a given size but I wasn't expecting a totally different
feeling.

A cm of extra length, whether along the top tube or in the stem, can make
a big difference.

When I returned to the shop and told the guy who fit me what the sensation
was like he said that I will get used to it and was actually a more
"powerful" position as my glutes are being used more than my quads. I had
him put the bike in the stand and measure the angle of my knees to pedal
position and sure enough my kneecap was behind the spindle of the pedal by
a pretty good amount.

behind? How far?

* I mentioned this to him and he said that the
positioning was correct

Blanket statements like that are as suspect as those who pronounce KOPS as
if it were a mantra. Fit is a more subtle thing than that. I fiddled for
years to get what I finally settled on -- and my knee is, yes, over the
pedal spindle. But you may be different. However, this sounds like he
is insisting on you using Lemond's position, rather than what is best for
you.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. --
_`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
(_)/ (_) |

On 16 Sep 2003 18:55:02 -0700, (Mark
Sinderson) wrote:

When I returned to the shop and told the guy who fit me what the
sensation was like he said that I will get used to it and was actually
a more "powerful" position as my glutes are being used more than my
quads. I had him put the bike in the stand and measure the angle of
my knees to pedal position and sure enough my kneecap was behind the
spindle of the pedal by a pretty good amount. I mentioned this to him
and he said that the positioning was correct and that I would just
need to adjust to the fit and that once I did I would be in a much
more efficient, comfortable and powerful position. There was a fair
amount of room to move the saddle forward but he insisted that this is
the right position. The guy has been a racer and professional women's
team manager so I have to believe he knows a little bit about how a
bike should fit, but I'm still not sure.


Do you think that he listened and understood how you want to ride?
What is best for a racer isn't always the best for someone whose
values, say, comfort more than speed or power.

Personally, I'd be nervous about anyone who keeps telling me that he
has it set up right and that what my body is telling me is wrong. Or
wouldn't let me ride it without moving the saddle forward because 'he
knows' how I should ride.

Then again, the LeMond geometry works very well for some people.

At the least, I'd move the seat forward to get to a position closer to
what you are used to and see how the bike feels then. Right now, the
very different position could make it hard to evaluate other aspects
of the bike. You can always move the seat back later.

What does everyone else think? Are Lemonds that much different or is
something wrong with the way this guy set the bike up? Any
suggestions on adjusting the bike or should I discard the Lemond
totally?

A LeMond isn't *that* much different from other bikes out there; the extra
length of the top tube simply comes from the more slack seat angle. If you
move the saddle forward on its rails, you eat up much, if not all, of that
extra length. You also end up with a more conventional KOPS (knee over
pedal spindle) position.

The real issue here is your suitability to a "LeMond-style" riding position,
which is as much determined by the setup as it is the frame geometry, at
least in this case. The person doing the fit certainly believes you would
benefit, but how does it feel to you? Could be that it might take some time
for you to tell... in that case, the other relevant issue is whether you fit
the same bike if you bring the seat forward and switch to a longer stem.
Chances are you can, unless you're at the edge of fitting it.

Hope this makes it less confusing, but I fear I may have made it worse!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Mark Sinderson" wrote in message
om...
In my search for a new road bike I test rode a 2003 Lemond Buenos
Aires. Based on my build and measurements taken at several bike shops
it was determined that a 57cm frame is the right one compared to 60cm
for most other regular framed bikes and 58cm for Specialized. I was
really wanting to ride the Lemond as it is steel and I like the ride
of my current steel framed bike. As part of the fitting he did have
me pedal on my current bike, in the trainer, to get an idea how I
currently ride. After that he said that my current bike setup is too
compact with my knees too forward resulting in an almost up/down
stroke, like I was standing on the pedals while seated. He then setup
the Lemond and I took it out for a ride. Well, when I rode the bike
it felt like I was really far back and my legs were more "pushing"
than pedaling, a really wierd feeling and totally different than the
other bikes I've tried. Everything else about the bike was great. I
know that Lemond has a more relaxed seat tube and longer top tube for
a given size but I wasn't expecting a totally different feeling.

When I returned to the shop and told the guy who fit me what the
sensation was like he said that I will get used to it and was actually
a more "powerful" position as my glutes are being used more than my
quads. I had him put the bike in the stand and measure the angle of
my knees to pedal position and sure enough my kneecap was behind the
spindle of the pedal by a pretty good amount. I mentioned this to him
and he said that the positioning was correct and that I would just
need to adjust to the fit and that once I did I would be in a much
more efficient, comfortable and powerful position. There was a fair
amount of room to move the saddle forward but he insisted that this is
the right position. The guy has been a racer and professional women's
team manager so I have to believe he knows a little bit about how a
bike should fit, but I'm still not sure.

What does everyone else think? Are Lemonds that much different or is
something wrong with the way this guy set the bike up? Any
suggestions on adjusting the bike or should I discard the Lemond
totally?

Mark

Are Lemonds that much different or is
something wrong with the way this guy set the bike up?

Lemonds are different from the crop of "compact" and beer can bikes in that
they peovide a comfrtable ride, great handling and a more powerful riding
position.

Any
suggestions on adjusting the bike or should I discard the Lemond
totally?

Adjust the seat so that "YOU" feel comfortable and try it. You are unlikely to
get the perfect fit from a test ride. It takes making fine adjustments as you
pumiles on. Get the Lemond. You will be pleased and the value is excellent.

As part of the fitting he did have me pedal on my current
bike, in the trainer, to get an idea how I currently ride. After that he
said that my current bike setup is too compact with my knees too forward
resulting in an almost up/down stroke,

As opposed to?

As opposed to a position which will be more comfortable for longer
rides (2 hours plus). The emphasis is on longer term comfort that I
would want if I were riding a century, which I want to do several
times next year.

When I returned to the shop and told the guy who fit me what the sensation
was like he said that I will get used to it and was actually a more
"powerful" position as my glutes are being used more than my quads. I had
him put the bike in the stand and measure the angle of my knees to pedal
position and sure enough my kneecap was behind the spindle of the pedal by
a pretty good amount.

behind? How far?

I wish I would have had him measure it exactly but I would say at
least a couple of centimeters maybe as much as four.

* I mentioned this to him and he said that the
positioning was correct

Blanket statements like that are as suspect as those who pronounce KOPS as
if it were a mantra. Fit is a more subtle thing than that. I fiddled for
years to get what I finally settled on -- and my knee is, yes, over the
pedal spindle. But you may be different. However, this sounds like he
is insisting on you using Lemond's position, rather than what is best for
you.


I did spend some time discussing the type of riding I am doing now and
what I would like to do over the next year. I just started back into
biking this August so I am still in the beginning stages of building
endurance. Right now I'm riding 70-90 miles/week with my longest
single ride right at 32 miles. Assuming I can keep in shape over the
winter I'd like to be able to ride 100+ miles/week with a long ride
each week of around 50 miles. Almost all of my riding will be solo or
with a small group but I would like to test the waters of citizen
racing as well. Based on all of this info he said that the way he
setup the Lemond should be the most efficient and comfortable position
for me once I adapt to it. He is very willing to swap out stems, get
wider bars and even adjust the seat some but he wants me to try the
bike as he set it up for a hundred miles or so to make sure.

For what it is worth to you in evaluating your experience and what you
might expect, in light of your cycling style: I'm 53 y/o, 5'6", 29.5"
inseam; I've been cycling for 4 years, the past 3 on a Lemond BA (105
triple). Fit by a reputable fellow who placed my knee over the pedal
with a plumb bob, I ride, not race; I do club rides of 30-50 miles,
plus several centuries and metric centuries each season. From the day
I got my bike, I liked that feeling of pushing the pedals when I
climbed--the position allowed me to feel strong and forceful. I get up
hills as well as, if not better than, most of the folks riding at my
level, and on the flats, I keep up and hold my own, probably with a
more typical KOPS feeling and position.

This is not scientific data, I know, just experiential. Your mileage,
well, you know.... Roy Zipris

On 17 Sep 2003 07:38:07 -0700, Roy Zipris wrote:

For what it is worth to you in evaluating your experience and what you
might expect, in light of your cycling style: I'm 53 y/o, 5'6", 29.5"
inseam; I've been cycling for 4 years, the past 3 on a Lemond BA (105
triple). Fit by a reputable fellow who placed my knee over the pedal
with a plumb bob, I ride, not race; I do club rides of 30-50 miles,
plus several centuries and metric centuries each season. From the day
I got my bike, I liked that feeling of pushing the pedals when I
climbed--the position allowed me to feel strong and forceful. I get up
hills as well as, if not better than, most of the folks riding at my
level, and on the flats, I keep up and hold my own, probably with a
more typical KOPS feeling and position.

This is not scientific data, I know, just experiential. Your mileage,
well, you know.... Roy Zipris


I think the position on my LeMond is very good. However, I've always liked
having my knee behind the pedal axle, which is easy to do on my mountain
bike but a bear to do on my old racing bike. I find the LeMond to be much
better in this regard, and it allows me to slide even further back to power
up hills using my glutes in addition to my thighs. I did, however, have to
change the 100mm stem to a 130mm stem. My body is weird, though: long
femurs, short legs, long upper body, long arms. For instance, the guy from
which I bought the bike is about the same hieght as I am, so he adjusted
the seat to him. I put the seat down about 1/2 an inch at least and pushed
it all the way back.

--
Bob M in CT
Remove 'x.' to reply

(Mark Sinderson) wrote in message . com...
In my search for a new road bike I test rode a 2003 Lemond Buenos
Aires. Based on my build and measurements taken at several bike shops
it was determined that a 57cm frame is the right one compared to 60cm
for most other regular framed bikes and 58cm for Specialized. I was
really wanting to ride the Lemond as it is steel and I like the ride
of my current steel framed bike. As part of the fitting he did have
me pedal on my current bike, in the trainer, to get an idea how I
currently ride. After that he said that my current bike setup is too
compact with my knees too forward resulting in an almost up/down
stroke, like I was standing on the pedals while seated. He then setup
the Lemond and I took it out for a ride. Well, when I rode the bike
it felt like I was really far back and my legs were more "pushing"
than pedaling, a really wierd feeling and totally different than the
other bikes I've tried. Everything else about the bike was great. I
know that Lemond has a more relaxed seat tube and longer top tube for
a given size but I wasn't expecting a totally different feeling.

When I returned to the shop and told the guy who fit me what the
sensation was like he said that I will get used to it and was actually
a more "powerful" position as my glutes are being used more than my
quads. I had him put the bike in the stand and measure the angle of
my knees to pedal position and sure enough my kneecap was behind the
spindle of the pedal by a pretty good amount. I mentioned this to him
and he said that the positioning was correct and that I would just
need to adjust to the fit and that once I did I would be in a much
more efficient, comfortable and powerful position. There was a fair
amount of room to move the saddle forward but he insisted that this is
the right position. The guy has been a racer and professional women's
team manager so I have to believe he knows a little bit about how a
bike should fit, but I'm still not sure.

What does everyone else think? Are Lemonds that much different or is
something wrong with the way this guy set the bike up? Any
suggestions on adjusting the bike or should I discard the Lemond
totally?

Mark

i have a lemond poprad cyclocross bike that i use for paved road
riding, as well as gravel and some dirt trail duty. it works great for
me. i have a 59cm frame, i'm 6'4", 215# with a 35 1/4" inseam. my knee
position is pretty close to being over the pedal spindle, maybe a bit
behind it. seat height is as high as i can go without hips rocking. i
can touch the backs of my knuckles to the ground and my bar position
is set at 3" below the seat. blanket rules about how a bike should fit
everyone don't make a lot of sense to me. guidelines as a place to
start, yes, but that's all they are. one thing i like about the lemond
geometry is that my seat generally ends up positioned pretty close to
the center of the rails. selle italia recommends it that way and it
does seem to make sense. the only way to find out if a lemond is for
you is to try one out and set it up the way it works best for you. i
would definitely buy another because i've been so happy with this one.
for value, it's tough to beat a lemond. they give you a lot of bike
for the money!
smokey