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Making America into Amsterdam



 
 
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  #31  
Old June 27th 18, 07:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 6/27/2018 10:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...disc-frame-set

revised model for 2018


Very nice.

How much would a complete bicycle cost with that frame? I think that
many potential customers would not want to buy every component at full
retail price and build up a bicycle themselves, but would be okay with
paying $1000-1200 for a complete bike. Especially in Palo Alto.

Mechanical disc brakes
Triple Crankset, Sora or better
Front 36 spoke wheel with SP PD-8 dynamo
Rear 36 spoke wheel
Stem
Seat Post
Seat
Pedals
Handlebars
Chain
Ads
  #32  
Old June 27th 18, 07:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 11:18:06 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...disc-frame-set

revised model for 2018


Very nice.

How much would a complete bicycle cost with that frame? I think that
many potential customers would not want to buy every component at full
retail price and build up a bicycle themselves, but would be okay with
paying $1000-1200 for a complete bike. Especially in Palo Alto.

Mechanical disc brakes
Triple Crankset, Sora or better
Front 36 spoke wheel with SP PD-8 dynamo
Rear 36 spoke wheel
Stem
Seat Post
Seat
Pedals
Handlebars
Chain


That recommend should come as no surprise. Every time you post about mixtes, I link to the Soma. Here in the civilized world, you an buy them complete, but not cheaply. https://www.joe-bike.com/product/som...50-cm-4362.htm


With sloping TT bikes with long headtubes and the proliferation of all sorts of city bikes, I really don't see the need for a mixte, but they are kind of retro cool.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #33  
Old June 27th 18, 08:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote:



[...]

You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf YIMBY groups, that
families with children generally want to live in single family homes.


So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the dance club, to
numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad station, almost everywhere.

How old were those European towns? When were they founded?


Doesn't matter.


I think it does matter.


Why?


The example I brought above was a new part of town, built around the
70's. 1970, that is. It works. This is the area, residential right
with industrial and there is also a large supermarket right in this
development where I shopped a lot:

https://goo.gl/maps/Urm6iarPi9B2


I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe,
most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have
much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to
promote "infill" development.

Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was
struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary
around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and
little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural
convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living
close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system.


It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe, lived
there for decades. An example in Austria:

http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg

Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country:

http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg

This is in the UK:

https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg


Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize new land,
to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight any attempt to limit
what we can do with it.

So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_ they will
buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some farm road. The land
is cheaper out there, and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in
twisty residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm road.
They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody will use them.

The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a new,
all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone will eventually
say "Hey, I can put a gas station and convenience store at their corner
and make a killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away the
night sky, and the traffic increases.

Soon another realty company builds another mushroom development nearby,
which triggers a little shopping plaza, and on it goes. It all happens
at low density, because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow.



If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a little strip
mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city hall will say "NOOO!"
because it's all zoned residential.


Connectivity is actively discouraged, because residents don't want
strangers in their neighborhood at all. A motor vehicle - preferably an
SUV - is the only socially acceptable way to enter or leave the
neighborhood. And people wanting to escape from the traffic to and from
those developments soon buy into another development further yet from
town. The march continues. And if it's 30 miles to work or ten miles to
get most groceries, who cares?

We had friends from Dublin, Ireland stay with us some years ago. One of
their most-repeated comments was "You have so much _room_ in America!"

But they have a countryside free of endless strip malls.


Next time in Ireland don't go to Dublin but to some little town north of
Shannon, along the river. No sharply contrasting town limits, houses
everywhere, lots of space. Yet they managed to always make sure there is
a pub, a grocer, a barber and so on within walking or cycling distance.
Cycling meaning not for you and me but for people who think that
anything beyond 5mi on a bicycle is a Herculean job. I am pretty sure
that the people we met in Ireland would refuse to move to an area where
that wasn't so, where there wasn't at least a pub.

We rented a house in Killaloe, small village, looks not much different
from where I live now, just smaller. Neighborhood pubs on just about
every street corner, Mollie's Pub was five minutes walking from our
house (depending on how many pints of Guinness one has had).
Neighborhood pubs here in our area? None.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #34  
Old June 27th 18, 10:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote:



[...]

You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf YIMBY groups,
that
families with children generally want to live in single family homes.


So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the dance club, to
numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad station, almost everywhere.

How old were those European towns? When were they founded?


Doesn't matter.


I think it does matter.


Why?


Because, as I already said:

I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe,
most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have
much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to
promote "infill" development.

Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was
struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary
around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and
little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural
convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living
close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system.


It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe, lived
there for decades. An example in Austria:

http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg


Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country:

http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg


This is in the UK:

https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg


In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development
surrounded by rural fields. And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google
Maps. Perhaps if you gave the locations, we could look at the satellite
views and compare them with similar American towns.


Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize new land,
to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight any attempt to limit
what we can do with it.

So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_ they will
buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some farm road. The land
is cheaper out there, and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in
twisty residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm road.
They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody will use them.

The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a new,
all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone will eventually
say "Hey, I can put a gas station and convenience store at their corner
and make a killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away the
night sky, and the traffic increases.

Soon another realty company builds another mushroom development nearby,
which triggers a little shopping plaza, and on it goes. It all happens
at low density, because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow.



If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a little strip
mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city hall will say "NOOO!"
because it's all zoned residential.


I'm talking about "development" extending out into former farm country,
specifically because there is no zoning out there. These are places
where there is no city hall, because they are not in a city.




Connectivity is actively discouraged, because residents don't want
strangers in their neighborhood at all. A motor vehicle - preferably an
SUV - is the only socially acceptable way to enter or leave the
neighborhood. And people wanting to escape from the traffic to and from
those developments soon buy into another development further yet from
town. The march continues. And if it's 30 miles to work or ten miles to
get most groceries, who cares?

We had friends from Dublin, Ireland stay with us some years ago. One of
their most-repeated comments was "You have so much _room_ in America!"

But they have a countryside free of endless strip malls.


Next time in Ireland don't go to Dublin but to some little town north of
Shannon, along the river. No sharply contrasting town limits, houses
everywhere, lots of space. Yet they managed to always make sure there is
a pub, a grocer, a barber and so on within walking or cycling distance.
Cycling meaning not for you and me but for people who think that
anything beyond 5mi on a bicycle is a Herculean job. I am pretty sure
that the people we met in Ireland would refuse to move to an area where
that wasn't so, where there wasn't at least a pub.

We rented a house in Killaloe, small village, looks not much different
from where I live now, just smaller. Neighborhood pubs on just about
every street corner, Mollie's Pub was five minutes walking from our
house (depending on how many pints of Guinness one has had).
Neighborhood pubs here in our area? None.


I just used Google Streets View to take a look north of Killaloe on
R463. I didn't see the sorts of mushroom housing developments I'm
talking about, nor the countryside strip malls.

Contrast that with this view of Streetsboro, Ohio, a town I sometimes
pass through:
https://goo.gl/maps/bGwgtqiCEF12
Follow route 14 north to see the strip mall developments.

Personally, I'd love to have a nice pub in walking distance of our
house. There are a couple restaurants within a mile, although they're
not the kind I would like. In any case, there are no sidewalks to access
them. You're expected to arrive by car. After a few beers, you're
expected to drive home. Go figure.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #35  
Old June 28th 18, 12:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote:



[...]

You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf YIMBY groups,
that
families with children generally want to live in single family
homes.


So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the dance club, to
numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad station, almost everywhere.

How old were those European towns? When were they founded?


Doesn't matter.

I think it does matter.


Why?


Because, as I already said:

I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe,
most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have
much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to
promote "infill" development.

Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was
struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary
around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and
little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural
convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living
close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system.


Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when your
relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they likely
settled in an east coast town very similar to a European one.

Sprawl set in a bit earlier in America but not by much. The few years
difference is because WW-II destroyed much of Europe but nothing inside
the US. Europe had sprawl already before America as we know it existed
and that can be witnessed in the UK, for example.



It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe, lived
there for decades. An example in Austria:

http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg


Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country:

http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg


This is in the UK:

https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg



In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development
surrounded by rural fields.



Get your glasses and look again :-)


... And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google
Maps. Perhaps if you gave the locations, we could look at the satellite
views and compare them with similar American towns.


Sorry, but ever since they botched the font sizes Google Maps has become
nearly useless to me. Can't read a thing. I have lived in Europe for
decades and live in the US for decades. There is not much difference WRT
sprawl with two exceptions:

1. The property sizes are a tad smaller in Europe but this is
compensated for by more people per square mile needing a home.

2. They have less or no zoning laws. Unfortunately we do, and that's
where the problem is.


Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize new land,
to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight any attempt to limit
what we can do with it.

So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_ they will
buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some farm road. The land
is cheaper out there, and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in
twisty residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm road.
They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody will use them.

The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a new,
all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone will eventually
say "Hey, I can put a gas station and convenience store at their corner
and make a killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away the
night sky, and the traffic increases.

Soon another realty company builds another mushroom development nearby,
which triggers a little shopping plaza, and on it goes. It all happens
at low density, because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow.



If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a little
strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city hall will say
"NOOO!" because it's all zoned residential.


I'm talking about "development" extending out into former farm country,
specifically because there is no zoning out there. These are places
where there is no city hall, because they are not in a city.


There will be a community services district or similar structure in
place, prontissimo, and they will lord it over the people. That's also
how it is where I lived.


Connectivity is actively discouraged, because residents don't want
strangers in their neighborhood at all. A motor vehicle - preferably an
SUV - is the only socially acceptable way to enter or leave the
neighborhood. And people wanting to escape from the traffic to and from
those developments soon buy into another development further yet from
town. The march continues. And if it's 30 miles to work or ten miles to
get most groceries, who cares?

We had friends from Dublin, Ireland stay with us some years ago. One of
their most-repeated comments was "You have so much _room_ in America!"

But they have a countryside free of endless strip malls.


Next time in Ireland don't go to Dublin but to some little town north
of Shannon, along the river. No sharply contrasting town limits,
houses everywhere, lots of space. Yet they managed to always make sure
there is a pub, a grocer, a barber and so on within walking or cycling
distance. Cycling meaning not for you and me but for people who think
that anything beyond 5mi on a bicycle is a Herculean job. I am pretty
sure that the people we met in Ireland would refuse to move to an area
where that wasn't so, where there wasn't at least a pub.

We rented a house in Killaloe, small village, looks not much different
from where I live now, just smaller. Neighborhood pubs on just about
every street corner, Mollie's Pub was five minutes walking from our
house (depending on how many pints of Guinness one has had).
Neighborhood pubs here in our area? None.


I just used Google Streets View to take a look north of Killaloe on
R463. I didn't see the sorts of mushroom housing developments I'm
talking about, nor the countryside strip malls.


Huh? You need to see an optometrist. This is Killaloe:

https://goo.gl/maps/tmT94zWyFLy


Contrast that with this view of Streetsboro, Ohio, a town I sometimes
pass through:
https://goo.gl/maps/bGwgtqiCEF12
Follow route 14 north to see the strip mall developments.


Go back to sat view on that. Structurally there is almost zero
difference between that and Killaloe above. Q.e.d., as the old Romans
would have said. Killaloe always was like that, dating back hundreds of
years. Now it's just more.


Personally, I'd love to have a nice pub in walking distance of our
house. There are a couple restaurants within a mile, although they're
not the kind I would like. In any case, there are no sidewalks to access
them. You're expected to arrive by car. After a few beers, you're
expected to drive home. Go figure.


Well, I fixed that problem by having a brewery in the basement. If you
want really fresh beer that is the only way out here.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #36  
Old June 28th 18, 05:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 6/27/2018 11:39 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Mechanical disc brakes
Triple Crankset, Sora or better
Front 36 spoke wheel with SP PD-8 dynamo
Rear 36 spoke wheel
Stem
Seat Post
Seat
Pedals
Handlebars
Chain


That recommend should come as no surprise. Every time you post about mixtes, I link to the Soma. Here in the civilized world, you an buy them complete, but not cheaply. https://www.joe-bike.com/product/som...50-cm-4362.htm


With sloping TT bikes with long headtubes and the proliferation of all sorts of city bikes, I really don't see the need for a mixte, but they are kind of retro cool.


Shallow Alto is full of old Mixtes being used as transportational bikes.
Cupertino is full of new ones, the one-speed Public Bikes bought by
Apple, but not really for general use, even though some residents treat
them like bike share bikes (I can only imagine what would happen if I
rode one and someone saw me on it!).

I hate it when mass-produced consumer products, sold at relatively low
prices, suddenly become boutique products, sold in small quantities at
high prices.

You should be able to buy a quality Mixte transportational bicycle for
$600-700, but when they are produced by a bike shop, buying frames and
building them up one at a time, of course they are going to be very costly.
  #37  
Old June 28th 18, 03:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 6/27/2018 11:39 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 11:18:06 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:39 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...disc-frame-set

revised model for 2018


Very nice.

How much would a complete bicycle cost with that frame? I think that
many potential customers would not want to buy every component at full
retail price and build up a bicycle themselves, but would be okay with
paying $1000-1200 for a complete bike. Especially in Palo Alto.

Mechanical disc brakes
Triple Crankset, Sora or better
Front 36 spoke wheel with SP PD-8 dynamo
Rear 36 spoke wheel
Stem
Seat Post
Seat
Pedals
Handlebars
Chain


That recommend should come as no surprise. Every time you post about mixtes, I link to the Soma. Here in the civilized world, you an buy them complete, but not cheaply. https://www.joe-bike.com/product/som...50-cm-4362.htm


With sloping TT bikes with long headtubes and the proliferation of all sorts of city bikes, I really don't see the need for a mixte, but they are kind of retro cool.


Perhaps, but the Mixte frame has other advantages as well. For touring,
it's very stable under load, unlike many "girl's bikes." It can be a
road bike or a transportation bike, as long as the geometry is correct,
with long enough chainstays.

Now they are "retro," but the reasons for them go way beyond retro.
  #38  
Old June 28th 18, 03:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 4:56:33 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote:


[...]

You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf YIMBY groups,
that
families with children generally want to live in single family
homes.


So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the dance club, to
numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad station, almost everywhere.

How old were those European towns? When were they founded?


Doesn't matter.

I think it does matter.


Why?


Because, as I already said:

I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe,
most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have
much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to
promote "infill" development.

Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was
struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a boundary
around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and
little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural
convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been living
close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system.


Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when your
relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they likely
settled in an east coast town very similar to a European one.

Sprawl set in a bit earlier in America but not by much. The few years
difference is because WW-II destroyed much of Europe but nothing inside
the US. Europe had sprawl already before America as we know it existed
and that can be witnessed in the UK, for example.



It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe, lived
there for decades. An example in Austria:

http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg


Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country:

http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg


This is in the UK:

https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg



In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development
surrounded by rural fields.



Get your glasses and look again :-)


... And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google
Maps. Perhaps if you gave the locations, we could look at the satellite
views and compare them with similar American towns.


Sorry, but ever since they botched the font sizes Google Maps has become
nearly useless to me. Can't read a thing. I have lived in Europe for
decades and live in the US for decades. There is not much difference WRT
sprawl with two exceptions:

1. The property sizes are a tad smaller in Europe but this is
compensated for by more people per square mile needing a home.

2. They have less or no zoning laws. Unfortunately we do, and that's
where the problem is.


Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize new land,
to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight any attempt to limit
what we can do with it.

So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_ they will
buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some farm road. The land
is cheaper out there, and there are fewer zoning rules. They'll put in
twisty residential streets with only one outlet onto that farm road.
They won't bother with sidewalks, because nobody will use them.

The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a new,
all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone will eventually
say "Hey, I can put a gas station and convenience store at their corner
and make a killing." So the parking lot lights begin to wash away the
night sky, and the traffic increases.

Soon another realty company builds another mushroom development nearby,
which triggers a little shopping plaza, and on it goes. It all happens
at low density, because everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow.


If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a little
strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city hall will say
"NOOO!" because it's all zoned residential.


I'm talking about "development" extending out into former farm country,
specifically because there is no zoning out there. These are places
where there is no city hall, because they are not in a city.


There will be a community services district or similar structure in
place, prontissimo, and they will lord it over the people. That's also
how it is where I lived.


"Lord it over the people?" You mean that there is a governmental structure adopted by the residents that is applicable to people who move in with notice of that structure? My God, that is so repressive!

Everything you needed to know about your community was available in the CC&Rs and the CSD filings BEFORE YOU MOVED IN. Don't buy into a synthetic town and then complain that it's a synthetic town.

You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10 shack on some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not live in an airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up the butt. I'm sure you would enjoy that. Plenty of room for beer brewing.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #39  
Old June 28th 18, 04:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 6/27/2018 7:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I think there are different cultural or social expectations in Europe,
most of which are influenced by history. Europe seems to generally have
much more restrictive land use policies, and those policies seem to
promote "infill" development.

Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured, I was
struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed to be a
boundary
around most towns, with apartments, houses, shops etc. on one side and
little but fields and forests on the other side. We saw almost no rural
convenience stores or gas stations, for example. People have been
living
close for hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system.


Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when your
relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they likely
settled in an east coast town very similar to a European one.


Joerg, I'm talking about present day geography, not that of over 100
years ago.

You (even you) can look up the population density of the U.S. vs.
northern European countries. You can look up the population density of
metropolitan areas both here and there, or typical home sizes, etc.
There can be no question that the U.S. sprawls more in every way.

There are some old U.S. cities where the city center itself is dense.
But in America, metro areas often are described as "donuts" with lots of
development in the surrounding suburbs, but very little happening in the
city that forms the center. And the suburbs, where almost all new
development happens, are all car-oriented. It's not only that business
owners expect that everyone will arrive by car; it's also that their
preferences and local regulations usually demand huge parking lots.
Those big parking lots force tremendous reductions in density.

I live just beyond the biggest strip mall shopping hell for our metro
area. Sure, I can walk from (say) home to the hardware store to a nearby
restaurant, then to the nearest grocery. I could then walk home. But in
a dense inner city, such a trip would be a walk of perhaps several
blocks. Here it's a trip of several miles.

You chose to live in an exurban community that's a freeway drive away
from the nearest real city. It seems strange that you claim that is
somehow equivalent to central Amsterdam.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #40  
Old June 29th 18, 12:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-06-28 07:12, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 4:56:33 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 14:55, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-27 09:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/27/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 17:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/26/2018 6:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-06-26 13:34, sms wrote:


[...]

You also have the issue that, despite the astr-turf
YIMBY groups, that families with children generally
want to live in single family homes.


So do we. We also did in Europe and could walk to the
dance club, to numerous pubs, grocery stores, railroad
station, almost everywhere.

How old were those European towns? When were they
founded?


Doesn't matter.

I think it does matter.


Why?


Because, as I already said:

I think there are different cultural or social expectations
in Europe, most of which are influenced by history. Europe
seems to generally have much more restrictive land use
policies, and those policies seem to promote "infill"
development.

Example: In Britain, in Austria, etc. when we bicycle toured,
I was struck by the practicality of city limits. There seemed
to be a boundary around most towns, with apartments, houses,
shops etc. on one side and little but fields and forests on
the other side. We saw almost no rural convenience stores or
gas stations, for example. People have been living close for
hundreds of years, and they're used to such a system.


Except that such difference are not truly there. Think back to when
your relatives came from Europe. Probably not very wealthy, they
likely settled in an east coast town very similar to a European
one.

Sprawl set in a bit earlier in America but not by much. The few
years difference is because WW-II destroyed much of Europe but
nothing inside the US. Europe had sprawl already before America as
we know it existed and that can be witnessed in the UK, for
example.



It sure did not look like that to me and I grew up in Europe,
lived there for decades. An example in Austria:

http://www.cipra.org/de/dossiers/rau...192dc6c65.jpeg




Here is the Reussebene, Switzerland as an example form another country:

http://www.wohnblog.ch/wp-content/up...eb-800x504.jpg




This is in the UK:

https://www.groundsure.com/wp-conten..._437777299.jpg




In each of your examples, I see what looks like dense development
surrounded by rural fields.



Get your glasses and look again :-)


... And Reussebene doesn't come up on Google Maps. Perhaps if you
gave the locations, we could look at the satellite views and
compare them with similar American towns.


Sorry, but ever since they botched the font sizes Google Maps has
become nearly useless to me. Can't read a thing. I have lived in
Europe for decades and live in the US for decades. There is not
much difference WRT sprawl with two exceptions:

1. The property sizes are a tad smaller in Europe but this is
compensated for by more people per square mile needing a home.

2. They have less or no zoning laws. Unfortunately we do, and
that's where the problem is.


Here, we have a pioneer mentality. The reflex is to colonize
new land, to take possession of our own acreage, and to fight
any attempt to limit what we can do with it.

So if a realty company wants to build 30 houses, of _course_
they will buy a corn field a few miles out of town along some
farm road. The land is cheaper out there, and there are fewer
zoning rules. They'll put in twisty residential streets with
only one outlet onto that farm road. They won't bother with
sidewalks, because nobody will use them.

The residents will feel like pioneers, so proud of having a
new, all-white neighborhood out in "the country." But someone
will eventually say "Hey, I can put a gas station and
convenience store at their corner and make a killing." So the
parking lot lights begin to wash away the night sky, and the
traffic increases.

Soon another realty company builds another mushroom
development nearby, which triggers a little shopping plaza,
and on it goes. It all happens at low density, because
everyone wants an acre of lawn to mow.


If only it was like that. The reality is that if you want a
little strip mall or even just a neighborhood pub then city
hall will say "NOOO!" because it's all zoned residential.

I'm talking about "development" extending out into former farm
country, specifically because there is no zoning out there. These
are places where there is no city hall, because they are not in a
city.


There will be a community services district or similar structure
in place, prontissimo, and they will lord it over the people.
That's also how it is where I lived.


"Lord it over the people?" You mean that there is a governmental
structure adopted by the residents that is applicable to people who
move in with notice of that structure? My God, that is so
repressive!

Everything you needed to know about your community was available in
the CC&Rs and the CSD filings BEFORE YOU MOVED IN. Don't buy into a
synthetic town and then complain that it's a synthetic town.


Please follow the thread more closely. This was not about me or people
moving in later. It was about people starting a business out in the
boonies while it was still the boonies. Yes, they will lord it over them
once the density increases.

Examples are plentiful. Such as airports that date back almost to
Lindbergh yet when developments went in they wer closed down or are
under that threat for noise "pollution". Same with farms or food
producers that have been there almost since the gold rush and now they
get in trouble because some "urban cowboys" that should have stayed in
the city moved into the country and can't bear the stench.


You could always go full Kaczynski and live in a 10 X 10 shack on
some forgotten BLM land in the Badlands and not live in an
airpark/golf course community with CC&Rs up the butt. I'm sure you
would enjoy that. Plenty of room for beer brewing.


They'd even threaten you out there if someone with a big bank account
decided to turn swaths of land around you into a "senior adventure
living community" or whatever.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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